Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

Post by General Zod »

Darth Nostril wrote:
General Zod wrote: I really like how they're handling it so far. Unlike a lot of other shows Lucifer's really not making any sort of effort to hide anything and he's almost going out of his way to be pretty blatant about it and convince her. I'm hoping for some breakthrough on the whole plot of hell being without a ruler by the mid season, because that's what's really going to drive it forward.
Depends on how closely they stick to the comics. Comics-wise hell isn't just without a ruler, it's completely empty. Lucifer booted everyone out, demons and damned souls alike, locked the whole place up and gave the key to Morpheus. Then buggered off to a beach in Australia to enjoy the sunset.
Then again I like the cast enough that I'm okay with a moderate deviation from the original comic.
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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Well, that was a sack of shit.

Okay, maybe that's too harsh. I only saw part of the episode, after all, and as a rule, I prefer not to judge a partial work out of context. But the writing was very poor.

Cop Lady (I still don't remember her name) brushes off shooting Lucifer rather quickly at the end. Also, she clearly has no problem collaborating with Lucifer to mislead her superiors about her misconduct and clusterfucks.

The twist with the bullet actually hurting Lucifer was interesting, but also a lame way to duck out of definitively confirming his supernatural nature, which really should be obvious. Status quo awkwardly maintained, it looks like...

Oh, and its nice how Cop Lady refuted the notion that she was an atheist by saying that she believes in good and evil, with the implication that atheists don't, that they lack a sense of morality. Nice little fuck you to the atheists there from whoever wrote this. :evil:

Interesting that they tried to address "Pick up artist" types and sexism, but I found it poorly handled and rather sexist apologism at times.

I'm not going to write the show off on one flop. A lot of shows have weaker starts and grow into something better. And I am remembering that if I based my opinion of one of my favourite shows, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, on its fourth episode, I probably wouldn't like it much. But I was not favourably impressed.

The last episode basically confirmed my initial impression, only more so- mediocre to poor writing kept afloat by a lead actor who deserves better.

Here's hoping they can make the scripts a bit deeper, smarter, and more emotional going forward. And that they bother to make the effort.
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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

Post by Tsyroc »

I thought that she let the gun shot slide a little too quickly as well. I think there is a bit of a misdirect though, I don't think Lucifer is totally back to square one in her eyes. She's seen too many things around him to totally go back to beginning.

I did like that they revealed that Lucifer removed his wings. I had suspected that and it is something that jives with the comic.

Hopefully they'll go into why he did that and how it might be impacting him on Earth.

I'm also starting to think that there might be something special about Trixie, the cop's daughter. I mean, if Lucifer can't figure out what is special about the detective then maybe it's because it is the daughter who is special, and that rubs off on her mother because they are around each other so often.

We also need to meet the cop's mom. She's staying at her mom's house. She should be interesting given her background. I'm also curious how she'll be around Lucifer and vice versa.
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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

Post by Tsyroc »

Over on IMDB there's a bunch of discussions on why Chloe was able to hurt Lucifer. There's no evidence fully supporting this so far but it was suggested that maybe Lucifer isn't losing his powers and only Chloe can hurt him. For some reason nobody said anything about the reveal that Lucifer doesn't have his wings maybe being why he might be losing his powers but anyway, here are a couple of the ideas on why she was able to hurt him.

1. She's special for whatever reason. There's some evidence for this since she hasn't been phased by Lucifer's usual schtick. Although, she did respond a bit when she saw him full on naked.
  1. a. She's part angel? Some people have even suggested that she's Michael's child from the comic. Personally I think the Michael part is a bit much but I can go with her being different somehow.

    b .Lucifer has inadvertently given her power over him. This could be amusing if it gets some decent play in his interaction with the therapist.
2. He wasn't really hurt, it is some sort of deception by Amendiel and/or Mazikeen (or maybe someone else).

I can buy it being someone's ploy but I think he was really injured.


Along the lines that "Chloe is special" I still think there is something up with Trixie because of how much she likes Lucifer. That could just be because I like the actress/character so far. She's been surprisingly good. She still seems like a kid without being annoying or veering into being too adult for the sake of a few laughs.

As a rare moment away from the main characters I like the confrontation between Amendiel and Mazikeen.
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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

Post by General Zod »

This episode was a little underwhelming but we finally get a glimpse of Maize's real face at the end and a bit of tension building.
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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Annoyed that they're still sticking with Chloe not knowing what Lucifer is. Its one of the most irritating cliches of the genre.

And good God, Lucifer's stalker/sexual harassment behaviour towards Chole got grating. And I don't like seeing that kind of thing played for comedy. Though admittedly, it would be stranger if Lucifer wasn't an asshole.

I do like that they disected the unintended results of Lucifer's deal making.

And that last scene with Maz was nicely foreboding. I have a feeling their's a rift between her and Lucifer coming, because he's not going to take it well if Maz does anything to Chole.
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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

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In the comic he has morpheus cut off his wings. They changed that to Mazikeen here, which is probably only smart.
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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

Post by General Zod »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Annoyed that they're still sticking with Chloe not knowing what Lucifer is. Its one of the most irritating cliches of the genre.

And good God, Lucifer's stalker/sexual harassment behaviour towards Chole got grating. And I don't like seeing that kind of thing played for comedy. Though admittedly, it would be stranger if Lucifer wasn't an asshole.

I do like that they disected the unintended results of Lucifer's deal making.

And that last scene with Maz was nicely foreboding. I have a feeling their's a rift between her and Lucifer coming, because he's not going to take it well if Maz does anything to Chole.
Honestly they're not really foreshadowing it as much as throwing it in your face. This could be a bit of clever misdirection, but I doubt it.
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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

Post by Tsyroc »

I wasn't as entertained (not as funny) with the most recent episode as most of the previous. It seemed to be setting up a lot of things that could turn out to be good.

I did like what they did with Maze, and making it obvious that so far Lucifer's "favors" have at least some basis for causing all of Chloe's cases we've seen so far was a good set up that could lead to something interesting. Is "Father" (or maybe an angel) tweaking on Lucifer's favors to prove a point or is it just a fact that someone who is "divine" shouldn't be fucking around on the mortal coil and not expect some sort of blow back? I've felt that "Father" allowing Lucifer to leave Hell and hang about on Earth was about allowing Lucifer to "grow up" and potentially move on to be a "Father" of his own (reality as in the comics).

I mean, Lucifer essentially got banished to Hell because he had a tantrum (and tried to take over) because God "favored his new creation (humans) over his first (born)". So Lucifer got to spend thousands of year punishing the beings who caused him to rebel (throw a bit ol' hissy fit) and now he's chosen (via free will) to fuck around with the lot of them on Earth. That sure seems like Father is allowing his son the opportunity to learn and grow. He gave it a try himself 2,000+ years ago so it's pretty cool that he allowed his first son to give a go so soon after he gave it a try (time + immortals you know). Granted it's not entirely the same thing (and I hope it isn't. The writing will have to be really, really good to keep this show interesting if Lucifer is as human as Jesus was in the Bible).

I still like that for the most part he isn't out and out Evil, but this episode emphasized that he is not good and that he isn't as benign with his favors as he initially seemed.

I still find it odd that even with people who've read the comics that Lucifer not having his wings doesn't come up at all, except in reference to how hot he is the naked scene. In the comics his wings were kind of a big deal in various stages of various storylines.

In the long run it could be cool if Lucifer learns from all of his experiences and moves on to his own reality or back into the highest of God's good graces while at the same time another angel (Amendiel for instance) takes his place in Hell to begin to learn what he needs to learn so he is ready to move on. Of course this assumes that in the show Father is actually trying to raise his children to carry on without him and not a end all be all dick that some Bible thumpers would have him be.

Okay, she's only been in two episodes so far but Lucifer needs to take Chloe's captain to "pound town". I will just feel better once it has happened. :twisted:

Plus, I sure it will disgust Chloe. Always good to bolster her resistance to Lucifer's "charms.


FYI: Supposedly there is a Lucifer soundtrack on Spotify. If you can't find that there is definitely one on YouTube.

The music on this show is awesome (thank god that he doesn't like rap and loves the blues ;-) )
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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

Post by LadyTevar »

Tsyroc wrote:FYI: Supposedly there is a Lucifer soundtrack on Spotify. If you can't find that there is definitely one on YouTube.

The music on this show is awesome (thank god that he doesn't like rap and loves the blues ;-) )
I have been loving the music side of it as well. "No Rest for the Wicked" by Buck Stone Cherry during the opening of the pilot was what really sold me on this show. It told me, even before Lucifer spoke to the cop, that the show's director had a sly sense of humor. He's yet to disappoint me, even if "Manly Whatnots" was a poor showing.

And yes, we've never met a girl like Maze before.
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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

Post by Tsyroc »

I found it amusing when Lucifer started playing "King of Pain" at the piano in his club when Chloe was trying to spy on him.
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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

Post by General Zod »

LadyTevar wrote:
Tsyroc wrote:FYI: Supposedly there is a Lucifer soundtrack on Spotify. If you can't find that there is definitely one on YouTube.

The music on this show is awesome (thank god that he doesn't like rap and loves the blues ;-) )
I have been loving the music side of it as well. "No Rest for the Wicked" by Buck Stone Cherry during the opening of the pilot was what really sold me on this show.
I'm pretty sure the version they used was from Cage the Elephant.
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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

Post by LadyTevar »

General Zod wrote:
LadyTevar wrote: I have been loving the music side of it as well. "No Rest for the Wicked" by Buck Stone Cherry during the opening of the pilot was what really sold me on this show.
I'm pretty sure the version they used was from Cage the Elephant.
I always confuse those two bands. They sound alike to me.

I do wish they'd let Lucifer play the piano more.
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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

Post by biostem »

I realize that the show is largely tongue-in-cheek and doesn't take itself too seriously, but in general, I get this annoying feeling regarding any show that depicts angels/demons/the devil, without bringing in the larger implications or addressing any particular doctrine/dogma/literature.
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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Well, obviously, ones' impression of this show is going to depend on how prepared you are to accept the premise of the Devil as a protagonist (both the Devil part and the protagonist part). It'll rub some atheists the wrong way with the religion, and it'll rub some religious people the wrong way with the sympathetic Lucifer.
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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

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The Romulan Republic wrote:Well, obviously, ones' impression of this show is going to depend on how prepared you are to accept the premise of the Devil as a protagonist (both the Devil part and the protagonist part). It'll rub some atheists the wrong way with the religion, and it'll rub some religious people the wrong way with the sympathetic Lucifer.

It's not so much the religious part that's the problem - it's a question of there being angels & demons walking around, and presumably, if at least one of the religions was right about their existence/depiction, then you'd think there'd be some sort of better evidence for that group's position in-setting.
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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Unless its a setting where God doesn't like to interfere directly, and keeps others from doing so.

The Dresden Files has this to an extent, with angels (Fallen and not Fallen) being limited in what they're allowed to do in order to preserve mortals' free will.

Of course, Lucifer's antics in LA are pretty much the embodiment of interfering in mortal business, so...
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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

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The Romulan Republic wrote:Well, obviously, ones' impression of this show is going to depend on how prepared you are to accept the premise of the Devil as a protagonist (both the Devil part and the protagonist part). It'll rub some atheists the wrong way with the religion, and it'll rub some religious people the wrong way with the sympathetic Lucifer.
Honestly the thing that bugs me most is how much they deviate from the source material, but considering the network you can't expect a faithful adaptation.
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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I haven't read the source material and consider it generally good policy to try to take an adaptation on its own terms, so that's no issue with me.
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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

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The Romulan Republic wrote:I haven't read the source material and consider it generally good policy to try to take an adaptation on its own terms, so that's no issue with me.
I've only read the source material that was specifically titled Lucifer. I haven't read any of the Sandman comic that he first appeared in. I kind of like to see the show as a small prequel to the Lucifer comics. I'm not sure if that could be squeezed into continuity between the Sandman stuff and Lucifer but it works for me. Ignorance is bliss. :)

Part of why it works for me in that context is that when I read the premise for the comics it mentioned Lucifer going to L.A. and setting up a piano bar. He's really not there a whole lot in the comics, which I found a bit disappointing. The comics are very good and get much more involved in Heaven/Hell etc... then what has been on the show. Lucifer also seems a bit more upbeat and maybe a little more friendly towards humans on the show, but then he is still very early on his "vacation".
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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I'm kind of hoping to see Lucifer vs. Maz at some point.

Its pretty obvious Maz's "loyalty" to Lucifer is the "I do what I think is best for you" kind, not the "I do what you tell me" kind. And that she's gunning for Chloe. And... I'm not sure how Chloe can survive that, but if Maz tries to harm her, Lucifer is going to be pissed.
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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

Post by Kojiro »

I'd say if Maz could kill Chloe without bringing Lucifer's wrath upon her she'd have done it already. Given Lucifer's predilection for finding and punishing those he feels deserve it and that hint of a temper we've seen, Maz has extremely good reason not to be in any way associated with Chloe's demise.

I mean, this is literally a case where dying would likely be preferable. Lucifer could likely inflict ACTUALLY worse fates than death on you.
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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

Post by General Zod »

Kojiro wrote:I'd say if Maz could kill Chloe without bringing Lucifer's wrath upon her she'd have done it already. Given Lucifer's predilection for finding and punishing those he feels deserve it and that hint of a temper we've seen, Maz has extremely good reason not to be in any way associated with Chloe's demise.

I mean, this is literally a case where dying would likely be preferable. Lucifer could likely inflict ACTUALLY worse fates than death on you.
Then again, killing Chloe might be the one thing that gets him to return to hell and maybe Maz is counting on that.
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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

Post by biostem »

General Zod wrote:
Kojiro wrote:I'd say if Maz could kill Chloe without bringing Lucifer's wrath upon her she'd have done it already. Given Lucifer's predilection for finding and punishing those he feels deserve it and that hint of a temper we've seen, Maz has extremely good reason not to be in any way associated with Chloe's demise.

I mean, this is literally a case where dying would likely be preferable. Lucifer could likely inflict ACTUALLY worse fates than death on you.
Then again, killing Chloe might be the one thing that gets him to return to hell and maybe Maz is counting on that.

There was a little back-and-forth between Maze and Lucifer that seemed to imply, (if not outright state), that her entire reason for being is to protect him. Now, whether this is a more metaphorical meaning, or if she was literally created to serve and defend Lucifer, isn't clear, but I get the impression that she isn't above resorting to "tough love" in order to bring about whatever result she thinks is in his best interest...
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Re: Lucifer [Fox, spoilers]

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Which might explain why she hasn't attacked Chloe sooner. Its only now, when she knows Chloe can hurt Lucifer, that she regards Chloe as a threat that needs to be taken out.
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