You are Harry Dresden.

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Alyrium Denryle
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Re: You are Harry Dresden.

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Yeah, all that stuff about how the Reds were planning to start the war later when they were better prepared? Can't imagine it doesn't go double for the White Court. The reason why they come off as more pragmatic and reasonable and possible to deal with diplomatically is because Lara wants people think she's the lesser evil right up until she's in a perfect position to decapitate or enslave her enemies.
Except they were at war with the council along with the reds, and got out of it. Plus, armed conflict is categorically not their style. They are very very dangerous as individuals if you let your guard down, but with the more... sadistic (and more importantly: infected) factions gone, the whites have no reason to go to war with the council. They could, but it is not in their interests.

They dont have to kill their victims, they dont even do any lasting harm to most of their victims (except for Skavis and Malvora) that would necessitate killing them secondary to feeding 99.99% of the time, and their form of vampirism is non-transmissible. The council has no reason for open conflict with them, and they have no reason for open conflict with the council. Even granting that we are working only from Harry's perspective.

When it comes to a fight against outsiders, of all the major factions that operate in the mortal world (as opposed to the smaller ones like the Venatori or Monoc Securities) they are the only one suitable for an alliance. An alliance we desperately need.

If they turn on us, well... soon there will only be about a third the number. It takes decades to replace their own lost members to combat effectiveness, and they are the last physically threatening of all the vampires. They can be fought with the wizard equivalent of standoff weapons.
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Re: You are Harry Dresden.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Yeah, all that stuff about how the Reds were planning to start the war later when they were better prepared? Can't imagine it doesn't go double for the White Court. The reason why they come off as more pragmatic and reasonable and possible to deal with diplomatically is because Lara wants people think she's the lesser evil right up until she's in a perfect position to decapitate or enslave her enemies.
Except they were at war with the council along with the reds, and got out of it. Plus, armed conflict is categorically not their style. They are very very dangerous as individuals if you let your guard down, but with the more... sadistic (and more importantly: infected) factions gone, the whites have no reason to go to war with the council. They could, but it is not in their interests.
Doesn't mean they aren't dangerous. They simply have a different way of pursuing their objectives than open war.

I can't imagine that Laura Raith wouldn't like the White Council out of her way if she could achieve it. She even talks to Dresden about destroying his people with peace or something like that.

And anyway, at the point this scenario starts, Lord Raith is still in charge, and we can't assume that things will work out the same with Laura replacing him. Lord Raith is in bed with an outsider with a personal interest in us and has a great motivation to kill us, and frankly is almost certainly a Black Council member or ally.
They dont have to kill their victims, they dont even do any lasting harm to most of their victims (except for Skavis and Malvora) that would necessitate killing them secondary to feeding 99.99% of the time, and their form of vampirism is non-transmissible. The council has no reason for open conflict with them, and they have no reason for open conflict with the council. Even granting that we are working only from Harry's perspective.
Okay, I'm going to dispute the "no lasting harm" bit. No lasting physical harm, maybe. Psychological harm on the other hand...

Every White Court Vampire, in my opinion, can be considered a rapist. They subdue their victims through a form of mental manipulation that is difficult if not impossible for most people to resist, which does not sound like a situation which qualifies as consensual. In other words...

THEY NEED TO RAPE TO LIVE.

They also seem particularly fond of gathering influence in the mortal world, which I thought was supposed to be a no no. That alone makes them dangerous.

I agree they're not as high priority as the Reds, but don't think they aren't monstrous and dangerous, and enough so to warrant taking out if you get the chance. In Dresden's shoes, I'd burn them down in a second if I could.
When it comes to a fight against outsiders, of all the major factions that operate in the mortal world (as opposed to the smaller ones like the Venatori or Monoc Securities) they are the only one suitable for an alliance. An alliance we desperately need.
Pragmatically, that's a good point. Though how small is Monoc really?

Doesn't mean I wouldn't have a knife ready for the Whites' backs the moment we don't need them, and I'd expect as much from them.
If they turn on us, well... soon there will only be about a third the number. It takes decades to replace their own lost members to combat effectiveness, and they are the last physically threatening of all the vampires. They can be fought with the wizard equivalent of standoff weapons.
That's fair enough.

So I'd rank them as "enemy, but lower priority than the Reds or Denarians, much less the Black Council/Outsiders."
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Re: You are Harry Dresden.

Post by Ralin »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Except they were at war with the council along with the reds, and got out of it. Plus, armed conflict is categorically not their style. They are very very dangerous as individuals if you let your guard down, but with the more... sadistic (and more importantly: infected) factions gone, the whites have no reason to go to war with the council. They could, but it is not in their interests..
Armed conflict isn't their style, definitely. Ambush killing or enslavement is. As Romulan Republic mentioned Lara's outright said she plans to kill the White Council with peace. Writing them off as the lesser evil just makes it that much easier for them to pull off their eventual sudden, vicious and victorious war.

That said, I definitely see the logic with working with them against the Outsiders. Hell, Lara's already halfway there with the Oblivion War. But the same logic could apply to the Reds or even goddamn Nicodemus.
Romulan Republic wrote:Every White Court Vampire, in my opinion, can be considered a rapist. They subdue their victims through a form of mental manipulation that is difficult if not impossible for most people to resist, which does not sound like a situation which qualifies as consensual. In other words...

THEY NEED TO RAPE TO LIVE.

They also seem particularly fond of gathering influence in the mortal world, which I thought was supposed to be a no no. That alone makes them dangerous.
Yes, they are rape vampires. Horrible as that is, it is better than most of the alternative magical predators. And that same mental manipulation probably cushions the trauma somewhat by making their victims think they consented and also really enjoyed it?

Yeah it's pretty sick to have to consider that, but it's definitely possible. Butcher really hasn't given all that much info on the long-term effects of occasionally being fed on by a White Court vampire, or if that Jehovah's Witness missionary from Dead Beat was wracked by guilt for years and ended up getting divorced or whatever.
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Re: You are Harry Dresden.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Actually, come to that, I'm fairly sure it has been said that long term repeat feeding (which they do inflict on their slaves) causes damage both physical and mental.

And then, as Alyrium Denryel said himself, there are the scumbags of Skavis and Malvora, who are possibly even worse than Raith (if not, perhaps, as competent).

Edit: I mean, their are definitely more evil and immediately deadly things out their. But I wouldn't want to harbour any illusions about what the White Court is either.
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Re: You are Harry Dresden.

Post by Ralin »

Elaine mentions in White Night that many vampires do feel guilt over the people they kill. She was talking about Thomas, but she didn't limit the statement to the White Court. The same is probably true of the Reds, who we know also try to keep their victims alive when they're not starving or wounded like Bianca was. In terms of feeding they're probably pretty equal in terms of the harm they do to their victims. But see above about about Harry being a vampire bigot.

The Red Court does seem worse in terms of their larger politics (basically ruling as warlords over chunks of Latin America, compromising national governments in ways that prevent them from solving larger social problems, etc). Though again that could just be because we don't know as much about what White Court vampires like Lord Raith and Lara are doing behind the scenes.
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Re: You are Harry Dresden.

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Doesn't mean they aren't dangerous. They simply have a different way of pursuing their objectives than open war.

I can't imagine that Laura Raith wouldn't like the White Council out of her way if she could achieve it. She even talks to Dresden about destroying his people with peace or something like that.
With kindness, yes. But if it comes to it, I can kill her myself. She is not, unlike the red king, a demigod. I can, to borrow a phrase, nuke her from orbit. If I turn her house, while she is in it, into a giant decompression chamber (and by the time this would need to be done, Harry is capable of magic on a scale like this, and air magic is much easier than earth) and then...release... her lungs explode, her blood boils, and she dies. Messily.

Hell, I can even do it just to her in order to avoid mortal casualties. Or I can hire Kincaid. Or ask Ebenezer if he would be ever so kind as to drop some space junk on her...

Point is, I have options, and I am more clever and willing to engage in more indirect methods of killing than Harry is.
And anyway, at the point this scenario starts, Lord Raith is still in charge, and we can't assume that things will work out the same with Laura replacing him. Lord Raith is in bed with an outsider with a personal interest in us and has a great motivation to kill us, and frankly is almost certainly a Black Council member or ally.
That is what Book 6 engineering is for. Hell, book six I almost dont have to change as long as Book 4 goes according to plan. That is just a matter of avoiding injury, and the circumstances of Book 7 which depend on Book 6 is in the form of information. Information I have a priori anyway.

Marcone's thief is still going to pick up The Word in an estate sale and Kemmler's disciples will be after it. I still get my zombie T rex.
Okay, I'm going to dispute the "no lasting harm" bit. No lasting physical harm, maybe. Psychological harm on the other hand...

Every White Court Vampire, in my opinion, can be considered a rapist. They subdue their victims through a form of mental manipulation that is difficult if not impossible for most people to resist, which does not sound like a situation which qualifies as consensual. In other words...

THEY NEED TO RAPE TO LIVE.
They do, but the majority of the time, their one-off victims dont perceive it that way because most people dont know the vampire exists and have no idea their free will has been violated. They have no way to know. They dont compel obedience. They short-circuit the whole system by which there would be resistance. "No" just does not occur to their victim, and said victim can easily rationalize the whole thing into psychological irrelevance given the vampire's pre-existing attractiveness. "Wow, what the hell got into me? Meh, it was fun, off to work!"

It is rape, and it is creepy as fuck. But it does not cause psychological trauma. Which means of my available options, they are the least repugnant option.
They also seem particularly fond of gathering influence in the mortal world, which I thought was supposed to be a no no. That alone makes them dangerous.
Influence is acceptable. Bringing large numbers of uninitiated mortals into great-powers conflicts is not.
I agree they're not as high priority as the Reds, but don't think they aren't monstrous and dangerous, and enough so to warrant taking out if you get the chance. In Dresden's shoes, I'd burn them down in a second if I could.
I pick my battles. They are pretty far down the list after the lovecraftian nightmares, the reds etc etc etc etc etc etc. Reach all the way down the list, and you find the White Court.
Pragmatically, that's a good point. Though how small is Monoc really?
Odin is a Freeholding Lord, Monoc Securities is not a Great Signatory like the Council or the Reds. Not large.
Armed conflict isn't their style, definitely. Ambush killing or enslavement is. As Romulan Republic mentioned Lara's outright said she plans to kill the White Council with peace. Writing them off as the lesser evil just makes it that much easier for them to pull off their eventual sudden, vicious and victorious war.
Harry is Vigilant. So shall I be.
But the same logic could apply to the Reds or even goddamn Nicodemus.
I might actually be willing to sit down and have a chat with Nicodemus... if he was not a minion of actual satan and himself even more treacherous than that Whites.

As it stands, my first meetings with him will be an attempted regional geocide homocide and the second enslaving the archive. That is not going to go over well. If I do talk to him, he better have a damned good explanation as to how either of those things were in service of stopping outsiders and how they were *necessary* for that. Otherwise I am gonna grab his neck-strangulator and finish the fucking job.
And then, as Alyrium Denryel said himself, there are the scumbags of Skavis and Malvora, who are possibly even worse than Raith (if not, perhaps, as competent)
Given that Skavis get off on despair and Malvora get off on pain....

Raith get off on pleasure, and they dont actually need to use the Psychic Come Hither in order to do it. It just helps. Thomas managed to feed for years by just being a hairdresser, and I suspect many of the one-off non-emergency feedings are seduced mostly conventionally or with very gentle suggestion. All Laura had to do is...work in porn. That's all. If Thomas went to university all he would need to do is chat people up at the gym and be charming, or hang around in a pool hall and be charming etc. By description he is a good-looking and personable guy. I would sleep with him (were it not for the vampirism) and he is fictional.

They can turn up the mind-whammy. When they are... food stressed it seems automatic, and some of them are just assholes, but it does not seem mandatory.

Which is a far cry from the reds who HAVE to use addictive saliva to subdue struggling victims, and keep hordes of people in multi-generational peonage or chains (even outside formal functions...), and become gradually more and more addicted to human blood, and thus need more and more...

The White Court vamps are not good by any stretch. But when you time average the actual harm they do even to their own victims, it is much less than any available alternative, and while they WILL betray you if it is in their interests, they dont do it reflexively either. They are very realpolitik in their betrayal. That is something one can work with.
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Re: You are Harry Dresden.

Post by Ralin »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Raith get off on pleasure, and they dont actually need to use the Psychic Come Hither in order to do it. It just helps. Thomas managed to feed for years by just being a hairdresser, and I suspect many of the one-off non-emergency feedings are seduced mostly conventionally or with very gentle suggestion. All Laura had to do is...work in porn. That's all. If Thomas went to university all he would need to do is chat people up at the gym and be charming, or hang around in a pool hall and be charming etc. By description he is a good-looking and personable guy. I would sleep with him (were it not for the vampirism) and he is fictional.

They can turn up the mind-whammy. When they are... food stressed it seems automatic, and some of them are just assholes, but it does not seem mandatory.
They can turn up the Come Hither. I don't think they actually can turn it off. Thomas sure didn't choose to be assaulted by his co-worker in the walk-in freezer, and I really doubt the aforementioned Jehovah's Witness went at him just because he was so damned hot.

There are degrees to how strong the effect is, definitely, but I don't think there's ever a situation where sexing a White Court vampire is compulsion free. I don't think our real-life concepts of consent really cover this kind of situation, honestly.
I might actually be willing to sit down and have a chat with Nicodemus... if he was not a minion of actual satan and himself even more treacherous than that Whites.

As it stands, my first meetings with him will be an attempted regional geocide homocide and the second enslaving the archive. That is not going to go over well. If I do talk to him, he better have a damned good explanation as to how either of those things were in service of stopping outsiders and how they were *necessary* for that. Otherwise I am gonna grab his neck-strangulator and finish the fucking job.
Yeah, that's pretty annoying actually. Nicodemus clearly has the smarts and organization to be a huge asset against whatever the Outsiders are up to. He's probably already doing so in some form or another. But he's also goddamn Nicodemus and can't be trusted not to be doing something ungodly horrible and/or to betray you.

By the way, not sure if "minion of Satan" is an accurate description. Butcher made some comment to the effect that the Fallen in the coins are specifically the thirty Fallen Satan least wanted to have in Hell plotting against him. Nicodemus is a minion of Nicodemus. And possibly Anduriel.
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Re: You are Harry Dresden.

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Okay, then the Denarians are the Fallen Angels so backstab-happy and dangerous even Satan didn't want them. That isn't really any less horrible, obviously.

I mean... "Too evil for Satan." It almost sounds like a joke.

Point is, Nicodemus is both an utter monster and completely unreliable as an ally.

I mean, I could see Lara cheating on the Accords if she thought she could get away with it and the stakes were high enough (hell, I could see Dresden doing it), but not as brazenly as Nicodemus. Also, Lara may want to rule the world. Nicodemus wants to break it.

I'm reminded of that line from The Dark Knight:

"Some men just want to watch the world burn."

So yeah, strangle the fucker to death, chop up the body, burn the pieces, and fire his coin into deep space or the Marianas Trench if at all possible sounds pretty good.
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