Captain America: Civil War thread

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Simon_Jester
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Simon_Jester » 2016-09-12 06:22am

Overall, while I think Cap is basically right to favor the "our responsibility" model,* I think the pro-Accords side has some merits to its argument.

*Mainly due to the ability of HYDRA to so thoroughly infiltrate SHIELD and destroy its effectiveness as an organization.
Lost Soal wrote:Thor & Banner are not property owed by the US Government & entrusted to the Avengers. Ross' analogy is stupid but shows his mentality, he always considered Hulk to be US property and likely hasn't changed his mind.
A more intellectually honest person could still say "Wait, you're claiming to be responsible for superhuman threats to the security of Earth. You know the Hulk is a danger, because you've already had to fight him before. And you're... not even trying to find him? Really? Because seriously, if he hadn't been on your team we both know you'd be worrying about him."

It's not that the Avengers are the Hulk's jailer, it's that you can make a pretty good case they're letting their personal relationships with him blind them to the threat he poses.
Ross keeps talking about "enhanced" individuals, so what is classified as enhanced. It can't be powers surely because they seem to be including Widow in this category.
I think the category is inherently vague and poorly defined because, well, superheroes are vague and poorly defined. If someone like Black Widow can keep up with a team of heroes that have actual powers, well enough to be a member of that team, including her in the category of "people with physical abilities powerful enough to need oversight" is far from the least logical thing I can think of to do.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by FaxModem1 » 2016-09-12 06:34am

Honestly, unless Natasha Romanov has some sort of super serum in her bloodstream from when she was a KGB agent at 5 years old, anyone who can do martial arts and fire a gun is an 'enhanced individual'.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Crazedwraith » 2016-09-12 06:37am

Simon_Jester wrote:Overall, while I think Cap is basically right to favor the "our responsibility" model,* I think the pro-Accords side has some merits to its argument.

*Mainly due to the ability of HYDRA to so thoroughly infiltrate SHIELD and destroy its effectiveness as an organization.
In principle yes. This is why Tony remains sympathetic mostly. In the practise of the movie, much less so.
Lost Soal wrote:Thor & Banner are not property owed by the US Government & entrusted to the Avengers. Ross' analogy is stupid but shows his mentality, he always considered Hulk to be US property and likely hasn't changed his mind.
A more intellectually honest person could still say "Wait, you're claiming to be responsible for superhuman threats to the security of Earth. You know the Hulk is a danger, because you've already had to fight him before. And you're... not even trying to find him? Really? Because seriously, if he hadn't been on your team we both know you'd be worrying about him."

It's not that the Avengers are the Hulk's jailer, it's that you can make a pretty good case they're letting their personal relationships with him blind them to the threat he poses.
Not that you don't have a point. But on the other hand, the best way to avoid a Hulk incident is basically... not antagonise Banner. As proven in his solo movie and the fact there were no Hulk incidents between when he dropped off the grid and re-emerged in Avengers.

As they know him they could probably find him and maybe bring Banner in without upset, but they would basically end up being his jailers if you really want to ensure 'the security of Earth'.
FaxModem1 wrote:Honestly, unless Natasha Romanov has some sort of super serum in her bloodstream from when she was a KGB agent at 5 years old, anyone who can do martial arts and fire a gun is an 'enhanced individual'.
Or can use a bow and arrow. Though it is notable that they are ridiculously proficient with these items and Clint especially in the films seems to have supernaturally good situational awareness.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Lost Soal » 2016-09-12 06:52am

Simon_Jester wrote:Overall, while I think Cap is basically right to favor the "our responsibility" model,* I think the pro-Accords side has some merits to its argument.

*Mainly due to the ability of HYDRA to so thoroughly infiltrate SHIELD and destroy its effectiveness as an organization.
And as soon as you have multiple different countries with different agendas deciding when and if they can be employed you hit politics which can be just as capable of destroying effectiveness. We see in real life that UN sanctions and actions get stopped because of (quite possibly) politically motivated Veto's, e.g For years UN action against Syria was vetoed by Chyna & Russia
Lost Soal wrote:Thor & Banner are not property owed by the US Government & entrusted to the Avengers. Ross' analogy is stupid but shows his mentality, he always considered Hulk to be US property and likely hasn't changed his mind.
A more intellectually honest person could still say "Wait, you're claiming to be responsible for superhuman threats to the security of Earth. You know the Hulk is a danger, because you've already had to fight him before. And you're... not even trying to find him? Really? Because seriously, if he hadn't been on your team we both know you'd be worrying about him."

It's not that the Avengers are the Hulk's jailer, it's that you can make a pretty good case they're letting their personal relationships with him blind them to the threat he poses.
What makes you think they aren't trying? We know they were looking for him at the end of Ultron but they hadno idea where he landed becauseeven they couldn't penetrate the Quinn Jets stealth
Ross keeps talking about "enhanced" individuals, so what is classified as enhanced. It can't be powers surely because they seem to be including Widow in this category.
I think the category is inherently vague and poorly defined because, well, superheroes are vague and poorly defined. If someone like Black Widow can keep up with a team of heroes that have actual powers, well enough to be a member of that team, including her in the category of "people with physical abilities powerful enough to need oversight" is far from the least logical thing I can think of to do.
Its so overly broad then you could justify handing registration papers to every soldier with a good performance record along side their discharge papers
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by FaxModem1 » 2016-09-12 06:54am

Crazedwraith wrote:
FaxModem1 wrote:Honestly, unless Natasha Romanov has some sort of super serum in her bloodstream from when she was a KGB agent at 5 years old, anyone who can do martial arts and fire a gun is an 'enhanced individual'.
Or can use a bow and arrow. Though it is notable that they are ridiculously proficient with these items and Clint especially in the films seems to have supernaturally good situational awareness.
Which gets to the point of the Accords becoming a case of Tall Poppy Syndrome, ala Harrison Bergeron, as it would be like the Initiative from the comics, where someone like Michael Van Patrick , AKA 'MVP', where being the best at what you do or naturally gifted at athletics is enough to get you detained.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Civil War Man » 2016-09-12 08:57am

Simon_Jester wrote:He may have suffered some negative consequences, but obviously not career-ending ones, yeah.

And yes, they could advance that argument, but that's an ad hominem- an attack on the messenger, not the message.

You can argue that anyone dumb enough to provoke the Incredible Hulk shouldn't be running a superhero program designed to be accountable and sensible.

But you can't argue that this proves the program shouldn't exist.
It's not an argument against oversight as a general concept, but against how they are being implemented through the Accords. Ross's previous actions are completely fair game in regards to the Accords specifically. Whether or not he is in charge of the program in the end, his involvement in its creation calls into question the program's integrity. And the fact that the Accords were written up without soliciting any input whatsoever from the Avengers themselves and then presented to them as an ultimatum three days before ratification does not give the impression that the Accords were written in good faith.

Just because there is wisdom in having some form of oversight doesn't prove that the Accords are a good implementation. As myself and others have pointed out, there are loopholes that you could fit a Hulk through. And given Ross's history, he probably considers those loopholes to be features, not bugs.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Simon_Jester » 2016-09-12 12:53pm

That's a fair point.
Lost Soal wrote:And as soon as you have multiple different countries with different agendas deciding when and if they can be employed you hit politics which can be just as capable of destroying effectiveness. We see in real life that UN sanctions and actions get stopped because of (quite possibly) politically motivated Veto's, e.g For years UN action against Syria was vetoed by Chyna & Russia
You're not wrong. This is why I think Cap has the right of it. At the same time, I can sympathize with a very large number of people, both powerless and powerful, wanting the Avengers to have more oversight.
What makes you think they aren't trying? We know they were looking for him at the end of Ultron but they hadno idea where he landed becauseeven they couldn't penetrate the Quinn Jets stealth
That would be a fair response- but it's still a reasonable question to ask. "What are you doing about Banner?" is a question the Avengers should be asked, among other things because only they (Vision and Stark in particular) are really equipped to deal with him.
[The category is] so overly broad then you could justify handing registration papers to every soldier with a good performance record along side their discharge papers
Well yes, frankly. That's true. On the other hand, most soldiers don't go around acting as a self-appointed band of "world protectors" who trot the globe looking for wrongs to right and metahuman menaces to beat up on. If they did, perhaps people would be more concerned.
FaxModem1 wrote:Which gets to the point of the Accords becoming a case of Tall Poppy Syndrome, ala Harrison Bergeron, as it would be like the Initiative from the comics, where someone like Michael Van Patrick , AKA 'MVP', where being the best at what you do or naturally gifted at athletics is enough to get you detained.
It's not clear whether the Accords would actually do this to people who aren't, for lack of a better term, actively practicing superheroes.

Nobody seems to be talking about arresting Hank Pym just because he could (as far as we know) go be Ant-Man in theory... because he's retired. He's not a problem anymore.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by FaxModem1 » 2016-09-12 12:57pm

Agents of Shield has this as a subplot in season 3, with their hunting down and detaining of Inhumans. Hank Pym might have eventually been hunted down as well for his use of Pym particles.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Civil War Man » 2016-09-12 01:27pm

Simon_Jester wrote:It's not clear whether the Accords would actually do this to people who aren't, for lack of a better term, actively practicing superheroes.

Nobody seems to be talking about arresting Hank Pym just because he could (as far as we know) go be Ant-Man in theory... because he's retired. He's not a problem anymore.
That is one of the possible loopholes. It's not clear whether there are any safeguards in place to prevent "Sign the Accords and enlist, or retire from superheroing," from morphing into "Sign the Accords and enlist, or retire from superheroing and submit to 24/7 surveillance so we can confirm that you are staying acceptably retired and arrest you the second we see you do anything that we can spin to make it look like you aren't retired."

Given that Ross is one of the major people behind them, it would not be the least bit surprising if there are absolutely no safeguards to prevent that from happening.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Simon_Jester » 2016-09-12 03:03pm

This is within the realm of the possible, and is a valid concern which is why I agree with Cap about this whole thing being a bad idea as implemented and one that is worth resisting.

What I'm trying to do is communicate something that is probably the position of a large fraction of the entire human race, the people who are empowering government officials to push for something like the Sokovia Accords in the first place. The point of view goes like this:

...

Basically, superpowers are scary, super-agents are scary, there are good reasons to want someone in charge of them.

A year or two ago in the MCU, someone almost took over the world with an army of robots that attempted to destroy all life. And he didn't even mean to do that, he was one of the good guys. It was an accident. And yet, everyone came that close to dying. Likewise, the Incredible Hulk can trash a city and no one can seem to stop him... except the same guy whose science project nearly killed everyone.

That's a frightening world to live in.

Nobody wants superheroes NOT going out there and fighting the good fight. Or at least nobody who's sane and decent wants that. Nobody wants the Gestapo running around randomly imprisoning people who haven't done anything wrong- with the same caveat.

But we also don't want the very heroes we trust to defend us causing extinction level events through their own careless "oops" moments.

Nor do we want smaller-scale, "street level" heroes (e.g. Cap and Black Widow) running around as total rogue operators doing whatever the hell they want, wherever the hell they want, and ducking back across international borders whenever there is an attempt to hold them responsible for their actions. That sort of thing could very easily result in one man's star-spangled international freedom fighter looking like another man's international terrorist.

Let's not completely lose sight of the fact that people have good reason to be worried about this kind of thing. YES, the Accords as implemented and with a dignified office-desk thug like Ross in charge... That is a complete mistake all around. But the Accords are not purely the brain-child of power-mongering creeps like Ross.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Gaidin » 2016-09-18 02:32pm

Simon_Jester wrote:<snip>

Let's not completely lose sight of the fact that people have good reason to be worried about this kind of thing. YES, the Accords as implemented and with a dignified office-desk thug like Ross in charge... That is a complete mistake all around. But the Accords are not purely the brain-child of power-mongering creeps like Ross.
To wit.

To say the Sokovia Accords was ideal presents something of a problem in the MCU. They're structured around two major attacks where the Avengers or members of the Avengers took orders from official Agencies in the movies they were in(The Avengers and The Winter Soldier) so the complaint was awkward from the start. Cap was given his mission in Washington by the Director of SHIELD(overseen by the World Security Council) before he "died" and nobody reassigned him, just had the brilliant idea of trying to arrest and/or kill him and mostly piss him off and further drive him to figure out what was really going on. The corruption was thus outright discovered. New York? Well, calling the concept of the Avengers dangerously arrogant when they were implemented by SHIELD as a last ditch squad to hold the line against an alien invasion is strange. Blaming THEM for the damage done by the aliens is more strange. A case starts forming after Winter Soldier when he can use the Hulk Rage in the port city in Africa, the Battle of Sokovia, and the Capture of Brock Rumlow and are all done independent of any chain of command. But...the port city fight is ignored in favor of others when they have to destroy an entire skyscraper under construction in order to put Hulk down. The Avengers FIGHTING THEMSELVES. Something seemingly well used in the argument when trying to form the Sokovia Accords, only not.

And then as the movie proceeds we see the true motive. Ross more wants control over the Avengers. Not a group that he works with. A group he controls. And Stark sees it as well. His response? Hold please.

The Sokovia Accords. Flawed. From the start. Well intentioned but not terribly practical. As hilariously demonstrated.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by libertyjim » 2016-09-18 06:22pm

Gaidin wrote:And then as the movie proceeds we see the true motive. Ross more wants control over the Avengers. Not a group that he works with. A group he controls. And Stark sees it as well. His response? Hold please.

The Sokovia Accords. Flawed. From the start. Well intentioned but not terribly practical. As hilariously demonstrated.
I'm personally wondering how involved the accords will be in future MCU films. I don't imagine they'll just go unmentioned from this point on (as that would be annoying considering there is a whole film that revolves around them). I think we may see more and more Superheroes go against the accords over time and I wonder how the UN will respond. Following this thought process and assuming I'm right will Superheroes in general become outlaws? Also: Spoiler
perhaps that will lead into the Planet Hulk and World War Hulk story lines?

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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by madd0ct0r » 2016-09-18 06:39pm

spoiler tages are broken. here it is in teeny tiny font: Libertyjim said >perhaps that will lead into the Planet Hulk and World War Hulk story lines?
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by libertyjim » 2016-09-18 07:26pm

Ah. Thought something was wrong.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Simon_Jester » 2016-09-18 07:27pm

Ross is a power-mongering creep who has (partially) subverted the basic goal of the Accords in such a way as to give himself exceptional power. He wants his own super-team, and he wants to restrain or control all super-beings not on that team.

My point is simply that of the seven billion humans on the planet, a large fraction of them, maybe even a majority, will want something like the Accords: some reasonable assurance that Tony Stark's experiments won't destroy the world, that the Hulk doesn't get a blank check to go on rampages just because he and the Avengers are bros, that Captain America won't let "we were old war buddies" get in the way of apprehending a dangerous international terrorist, and that the US government can't just order the Avengers to go trash Stanistan (or conversely, that Stanistan can't get the Avengers to go trash the US).

The Sokovia Accords themselves are deeply flawed. The very reason they even came into being despite the obvious flaws is that a lot of people wanted them. Wanted them badly enough that they were willing to overlook the flaws.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Gaidin » 2016-09-18 07:32pm

Simon_Jester wrote: My point is simply that of the seven billion humans on the planet, a large fraction of them, maybe even a majority, will want something like the Accords: some reasonable assurance that Tony Stark's experiments won't destroy the world, that the Hulk doesn't get a blank check to go on rampages just because he and the Avengers are bros, that Captain America won't let "we were old war buddies" get in the way of apprehending a dangerous international terrorist, and that the US government can't just order the Avengers to go trash Stanistan (or conversely, that Stanistan can't get the Avengers to go trash the US).
Well, this is fair enough. Though I do find the complaint about Cap somewhat dull if you've at all watched the movie. They went in with a kill order, not an order to apprehend. Cap fights the kill order so Bucky can stand trial. Through it all, he was actually making sure GSG-9 had only the amount of damage done to them that they needed for he and Bucky to get out. Bucky, just a little more brutal, probably instinct, but...I don't know. He's not used to thinking like Cap does. Once they weren't shooting and they were taking Bucky's surrender, Cap surrendered. Cap was acting in a very particular manner in that chase/escape.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Simon_Jester » 2016-09-18 07:40pm

Suffice to say that the rest of the world doesn't know any of this. The court of public opinion has every reason to think that the Winter Soldier was a real international terrorist, and Cap did try to stop him from being brought to justice (repeatedly) because, well... old war buddies.

They can at least prove that the Winter Soldier was mind-controlled with the mass infodump of SHIELD/HYDRA files, I suspect, but that won't necessarily reassure anyone.

Again, this isn't me debating that Captain America actually did the wrong thing at any specific point in the movie. But there's a difference between what we know (since we saw basically every punch thrown and every bullet fired) and what the average person knows.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Sea Skimmer » 2016-09-18 07:50pm

I think public opinion would go the rational way, it doesn't matter if the Winter Solider is mind controlled or not, someone that dangerous is getting killed on sight. It's not like we don't do worse already.

Bigger problem though is the whole universe is ignoring just how radical the public reaction to the whole 'hydra is everywhere' thing, a tremendous amount of militarization and local government upswelling would take place. In the US you'd have all the state governments deploying troops and such. Public attention wouldn't be on some damn UN treaty or what not to control a few superheros, it would be about KILLING THE NAZI CONSPIRACY NOW!!! Except with less screaming and more bombing suspected truck parks.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Lost Soal » 2016-09-19 05:19am

Except Hydra IS dead, or as near as makes no difference. The entire leadership is dead, their bases are gone and the main reason they were such an influence on SHIELD is that they were there at its inception through Zola. That also is now gone. From the evidence shown Hydra is now as much of a threat as any other Neo-Nazi group which doesn't get wiped out because some form of a 1st amendment still exists in the MCU
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