Captain America: Civil War thread

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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by NeoGoomba » 2016-06-03 12:49pm

Vision has always looked awful, IMO. At least he was attempting to follow some sort of social norm by not walking around all naked like some Dr. Manhattan wannabe :P
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2016-06-05 10:00am

NeoGoomba wrote:Vision has always looked awful, IMO. At least he was attempting to follow some sort of social norm by not walking around all naked like some Dr. Manhattan wannabe :P
The tie-in action figures for the film use vision's comic book appearance and look bloody awful and nothing like how he does onscreen. Vision could alter his appearance at will, including his own version of clothing:




What's readily apparent is that in a universe full of heroes it no longer makes sense to put each hero in their own film without any others, cameos notwithstanding. Excepting of course the intro film for each one :mrgreen:
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Kojiro » 2016-06-05 11:10am

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:What's readily apparent is that in a universe full of heroes it no longer makes sense to put each hero in their own film without any others, cameos notwithstanding. Excepting of course the intro film for each one :mrgreen:
It's one reason I can't take Agents of SHIELD seriously anymore. The stakes are high! Lives are on the line! Hell this monster has ended entire civilizations! It's time to call the fucking Avengers ok?

The only way, origin film excluded, you can justify no one else showing up is if the event is extremely fast- like one of those horror films that takes place more or less in real time or isolation, such as in Asgard. FFS, part of the point of the Avengers is when you need us, we'll be there. That's more or less what Fury says at the end of Avengers and despite the goings on in Civil War still what Cap says to Stark in his letter.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Gaidin » 2016-06-05 06:06pm

Kojiro wrote:
EnterpriseSovereign wrote:What's readily apparent is that in a universe full of heroes it no longer makes sense to put each hero in their own film without any others, cameos notwithstanding. Excepting of course the intro film for each one :mrgreen:
It's one reason I can't take Agents of SHIELD seriously anymore. The stakes are high! Lives are on the line! Hell this monster has ended entire civilizations! It's time to call the fucking Avengers ok?

The only way, origin film excluded, you can justify no one else showing up is if the event is extremely fast- like one of those horror films that takes place more or less in real time or isolation, such as in Asgard. FFS, part of the point of the Avengers is when you need us, we'll be there. That's more or less what Fury says at the end of Avengers and despite the goings on in Civil War still what Cap says to Stark in his letter.
Tell that to the studios.

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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by SCRawl » 2016-06-05 06:13pm

Kojiro wrote:
EnterpriseSovereign wrote:What's readily apparent is that in a universe full of heroes it no longer makes sense to put each hero in their own film without any others, cameos notwithstanding. Excepting of course the intro film for each one :mrgreen:
It's one reason I can't take Agents of SHIELD seriously anymore. The stakes are high! Lives are on the line! Hell this monster has ended entire civilizations! It's time to call the fucking Avengers ok?

The only way, origin film excluded, you can justify no one else showing up is if the event is extremely fast- like one of those horror films that takes place more or less in real time or isolation, such as in Asgard. FFS, part of the point of the Avengers is when you need us, we'll be there. That's more or less what Fury says at the end of Avengers and despite the goings on in Civil War still what Cap says to Stark in his letter.
There should, at least, have been a line or two about how the Avengers weren't available to take on Hive. I mean, Iron Man should have been able to seal off his suit and handle him with impunity, had he been asked to do so, and Vision would likely be immune as well. The idea that a bunch of (primarily) counter-espionage agents should be the go-to solution to a threat like Hive just isn't a serious one.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Kojiro » 2016-06-05 10:37pm

Gaidin wrote:Tell that to the studios.
Obviously it's about the actors not having time/being willing to appear in TV shows for the price the shows can afford. They could probably have a scene with Cap or Widow- if they forgo the entire CGI budget for a season. Maybe it's just me, but if I were an Avenger actor, I'd happily show up in SHIELD now and then, for nothing. Even if it was just a throw away scene. Imagine the door of the Zephyr opening and the SHIELD team walk out with Thor, wheeling some big containment cell behind. We get a few lines of dialogue from Coulson about how grateful he is for Thor's help, a few fawning looks from the ladies who think he's 'dreamy' for comic relief and we get on with the episode as he departs. You'd instantly reinforce the now very tenuous connection.
SCRawl wrote:There should, at least, have been a line or two about how the Avengers weren't available to take on Hive.
One of my favorite things in Ant-Man is when, once he's told it's a potentially global threat, is 'Ok, my first suggestion is we call the Avengers!' The excuse is weak, but at least it's there.

I'll just bet that Coulson would give his other hand to have that phone Cap gave Stark.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by FaxModem1 » 2016-06-05 10:52pm

If he did that, Steve and Tony would know that Coulson is still alive. And for some reason, that's still a secret to the Avengers.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Kojiro » 2016-06-05 10:58pm

That 'secret' is nothing more than a bullshit excuse to limit contact that falls apart when world ending threats show up.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by LadyTevar » 2016-06-06 01:39pm

Now the reason would be "The Accords won't allow us". This would assume Fury ever wants the Avengers to have the full access to all the knowledge SHIELD has been keeping from them.
I think this was touched on in AoS season One, with Fury pretty much stating that the Avengers didn't/shouldn't have the clearance to find out Coulson was alive. Probably this is so Fury could hide more SHIELD secrets (see the SuperTech Steve found on the first heliocarrier?)
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Sea Skimmer » 2016-06-06 05:14pm

Well I saw it over the weekend and got what I wanted and expected. Good movie, knows it's universe is less serious with every additional superhero, and it really never wasted any time.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2016-06-06 06:48pm

I was as much thinking in an of out-of-universe context as much as anything else, it just wouldn't have had the same impact without the other heroes- and given the two Avengers not present (Thor and Hulk) are known to be off doing their own thing (Ragnarok) it's not like their absence needs explaining :mrgreen:
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Simon_Jester » 2016-06-07 11:53pm

Gaidin wrote:Again, I have no idea why he doesn't use the hulk rage in the port city. Where an Avenger is actually breaking things and his own team has to put him down. Make your case better Ross.
I think because in that case his team did put him down, which is exactly what Ross doesn't want to make into the issue. He wants external accountability for the Avengers, not internal accountability.
In New York? Well, characters want to call the concept of the Avengers dangerously arrogant? They actually take the orders of SHIELD to protect Earth from an alien invasion and then are blamed instead of the invading aliens? Who is blamed for the damage when a six man team is able to stop an alien invasion AND a nuke? Which side is more arrogant? Which side is more flawed?
I agree with you 100%... but note that the footage we see is more about the collateral damage (particularly Hulk's damage). Ross's thesis isn't just that the Avengers are loose cannons, specifically. It's that they are not accountable for collateral damage or losses to innocent bystanders.
Legitimately, that gives us the left out port city breakdown of Hulk he never touches, Sokovia, and their fight against Rumlow.

So like I said, you gotta lie to get an international treaty passed, so that makes it ok because: "Sokovia". Remind you of something in the real world in 2003? Only, I don't think the real UN fell for it in 2003. I'm not sure how many of us buy this, but we may say 'realpolitik' and shrug. I will understand. Either way. They lied...
Well, the Iraq War was more blatantly one country's agenda at work.

Also, frankly, the more you know about Sokovia and the Ultron incident the more you'd want the Avengers restrained. I mean seriously, the whole thing blew out of control after:
1) The Avengers pursued a unilateral campaign after Hydra remnants, retrieving dangerous alien artifacts which...
2) Stark experimented on without controls or oversights, because he was trying to create...
3) A massively powerful AI that could protect (or control) the world with, again, no real oversight or anyone being able to control it except himself...
4) And this AI then went bonkers, went viral, went rogue, and started staging terrorist attacks. To combat this threat Stark (and the mysterious alien Thor) conspired to create...
5) Yet another massively powerful AI/robot, Vision, whose physical capabilities are nothing short of godlike, which has an exotic alien artifact literally built into its forehead, and which they had NO WAY of knowing in advance would do anything other than turn on them. Fortunately it didn't, so the whole affair culminated in...
6) A narrowly averted extinction level event in which, even after their legitimate and sincere attempt to stop it, the Avengers' actions resulted in a lot of collateral damage.

Honestly, everyone would have been better off if the Avengers had just sat back and let the European Union pull together a rapid reaction force to take care of the Hydra base. Or something. Or pretty much anything other than having Tony Stark get his hands on an Infinity Gem to use in his pet science project to benevolently TAKE OVER ZE WORLD.

So probably the very first thing Stark had to do behind the scenes was agree to stop doing independent research... and I can actually see him agreeing to it. He's that broken, that undermined.
Ross though, Ross is an underhanded weasel who wants people like the Avengers under his thumb and will do anything he has to in order to get them there. The difference? He's adapted after getting his ass utterly handed to him in The Incredible Hulk. But in the end he lost mostly thanks to Zemo driving Steve(and many of the Avengers and potential Avengers) away from the Avengers as well as driving Tony away from Ross. Ross got utterly played by his own ego because he can't listen to what his own team of superheroes is telling him. He just wants his team of weapons. That's not how this crap works. Listen to your people.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Crazedwraith » 2016-09-05 01:20pm

My BlueRay of this arrived today! Thanks, free trial of Amazon Prime.

I'm curious to see how this stands up to a re-watch, I loved it first time through but It's harder when you already know what's going to happen.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2016-09-05 05:53pm

Crazedwraith wrote:My BlueRay of this arrived today! Thanks, free trial of Amazon Prime.

I'm curious to see how this stands up to a re-watch, I loved it first time through but It's harder when you already know what's going to happen.
Don't get me started on Amazon Prime, every single time I buy something on Amazon they try to sign me up for prime, no matter how many times I say I'm not interested :banghead:

I picked up my copy from the supermarket, I'll probably watch it tomorrow evening. I even bought a huge bag of Doritos to eat while I do! :lol:
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Batman » 2016-09-05 06:19pm

Must be amazon.com. Amazon.de never gave me any troubles. They asked 'Hey, wanna try Prime' once, I said 'No' and that was it. There's a little ''Try Prime' logo everywhere I go on amazon to be sure but buying stuff is the same it''s always been. Also, I hate you. Doesn't come out here until October 6.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2016-09-06 06:39am

Neither, it's .co.uk. A guy I was talking with today didn't realise it came out yesterday, even though he's hugely into Marvel. When I told him and that I got it from the supermarket literally across the road, he said that would be his first destination. :lol:

In picking up the BR3D I didn't have to choose between the blue and red sleeves since the 3D cover features both :mrgreen:
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by RogueIce » 2016-09-06 07:33pm

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:My BlueRay of this arrived today! Thanks, free trial of Amazon Prime.

I'm curious to see how this stands up to a re-watch, I loved it first time through but It's harder when you already know what's going to happen.
Don't get me started on Amazon Prime, every single time I buy something on Amazon they try to sign me up for prime, no matter how many times I say I'm not interested :banghead:

I picked up my copy from the supermarket, I'll probably watch it tomorrow evening. I even bought a huge bag of Doritos to eat while I do! :lol:
Do they offer a free trial? If so, take that shit, use it, and wait a few months for them to offer it again.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Tsyroc » 2016-09-07 10:48am

Kojiro wrote:That 'secret' is nothing more than a bullshit excuse to limit contact that falls apart when world ending threats show up.
They probably should have allowed for War Machine to make an appearance since he works for the US military. He should be easier to clear than the Avengers. They could have at least had him working with Talbot prior to Civil War. They could have CG'd him in there and had him coms silent, or at least coms silent with SHIELD so they wouldn't even have to get some voice over work from Don Cheadle.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Crazedwraith » 2016-09-07 10:51am

I would assume CGIing the War Machine suit would be a lot more expensive than Don Cheadle's time tbh.

From the unconvincing displays of superstrength from Lady Sif on the show, I'm kind of glad they're not trying for the big heroes in AoS, even if storywise it is hard to justify.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2016-09-07 10:56am

Crazedwraith wrote:I would assume CGIing the War Machine suit would be a lot more expensive than Don Cheadle's time tbh.

From the unconvincing displays of superstrength from Lady Sif on the show, I'm kind of glad they're not trying for the big heroes in AoS, even if storywise it is hard to justify.
It shouldn't really be problematic to have multiple teams that seldom or never interact. The world is a big place- one team can't be everywhere.

Now, granted, an apocalyptic threat like Hive should get the big guns called in normally. But, you know, the Avengers had that whole conveniently-timed civil war happening.

Though as I commented on before, that kind of makes the Avengers look like crap. They're off basically having a pissing contest while Coulson's team acts like mature professionals and saves the world.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Crazedwraith » 2016-09-07 11:14am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Though as I commented on before, that kind of makes the Avengers look like crap. They're off basically having a pissing contest while Coulson's team acts like mature professionals and saves the world.
Yes, aside from that Cap (and eventually Iron Man) also thought he was saving the world from Zemo/the other Winter Soldiers.

Likewise, there's no indication Coulson called for help. It is hard for the Avengers to react to a situation they know nothing about.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2016-09-07 11:26am

Crazedwraith wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
Though as I commented on before, that kind of makes the Avengers look like crap. They're off basically having a pissing contest while Coulson's team acts like mature professionals and saves the world.
Yes, aside from that Cap (and eventually Iron Man) also thought he was saving the world from Zemo/the other Winter Soldiers.
That seemed like a fairly minor side plot, all in all. Maybe I'm forgetting something, but to my recollection, it wasn't the main motivation of either side in the civil war. Cap's was basically "Go vigilante because government accountability is bad" (yes, you could make the case that the MCU authorities are horribly untrustworthy and the Accords deeply unjust, but that's mostly based on stuff that doesn't come up in the film), combined with trying to protect his old best friend from a murderous manhunt (the latter is a sympathetic motivation, but hardly world-threatening material). While Stark's was basically guilt over past mistakes with "avenge my parents" tacked on for the final fight scene.

If the motive was simply to stop Zemo/the Winter Soldiers, the Avengers would have all be on the same page and their would have been no civil war.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Crazedwraith » 2016-09-07 11:27am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
Though as I commented on before, that kind of makes the Avengers look like crap. They're off basically having a pissing contest while Coulson's team acts like mature professionals and saves the world.
Yes, aside from that Cap (and eventually Iron Man) also thought he was saving the world from Zemo/the other Winter Soldiers.
That seemed like a fairly minor side plot, all in all. Maybe I'm forgetting something, but to my recollection, it wasn't the main motivation of either side in the civil war. Cap's was basically "Go vigilante because government accountability is bad" (yes, you could make the case that the MCU authorities are horribly untrustworthy and the Accords deeply unjust, but that's mostly based on stuff that doesn't come up in the film), combined with trying to protect his old best friend from a murderous manhunt (the latter is a sympathetic motivation, but hardly world-threatening material). While Stark's was basically guilt over past mistakes with "avenge my parents" tacked on for the final fight scene.

If the motive was simply to stop Zemo/the Winter Soldiers, the Avengers would have all be on the same page and their would have been no civil war.
Then you remain woefully and wilfully ignorant of the film.

The registration act is a side show. Cap disapproves but it's only the need to save Bucky and then save the world that makes him actually defy it.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2016-09-07 11:36am

Crazedwraith wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:
Yes, aside from that Cap (and eventually Iron Man) also thought he was saving the world from Zemo/the other Winter Soldiers.
That seemed like a fairly minor side plot, all in all. Maybe I'm forgetting something, but to my recollection, it wasn't the main motivation of either side in the civil war. Cap's was basically "Go vigilante because government accountability is bad" (yes, you could make the case that the MCU authorities are horribly untrustworthy and the Accords deeply unjust, but that's mostly based on stuff that doesn't come up in the film), combined with trying to protect his old best friend from a murderous manhunt (the latter is a sympathetic motivation, but hardly world-threatening material). While Stark's was basically guilt over past mistakes with "avenge my parents" tacked on for the final fight scene.

If the motive was simply to stop Zemo/the Winter Soldiers, the Avengers would have all be on the same page and their would have been no civil war.
Then you remain woefully and wilfully ignorant of the film.

The registration act is a side show. Cap disapproves but it's only the need to save Bucky and then save the world that makes him actually defy it.
"woefully" is a matter of opinion, but "wilfully" is an unwarranted insult. Their is no call to insinuate dishonesty on my part because I have a different interpretation than you.

Now, I only saw the film once, some time ago, so I will acknowledge that subsequent viewings might alter my perception of it. But to me it seems quite clear that Cap likely would have disregarded the Accords regardless. If it hadn't been Bucky, it would have probably been something else. Their was an irreconcilable conflict of views on the role of the Avengers at that point, and any number of things could have been the trigger.

Although if it hadn't been Bucky, the final fight between him and Tony might not have happened, because Tony wouldn't have had the added revenge motive.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by EnterpriseSovereign » 2016-09-07 01:06pm

It was pretty clear that Tony's only reason for attacking Bucky was him killing his parents. That it was because Bucky had been mind-controlled seemingly made no difference to him. It was a bit of a bait and switch since it seemed we'd be seeing five more supersoldiers only to find out Zemo had killed them, and it fell to Black Panther to deal with him.

This illustrates the differences between IM and Panther on facing the killer of their parents, since Stark went all-out on Bucky while Panther could easily have killed Zemo but was perfectly content with merely imprisoning him.
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