Captain America: Civil War thread

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Iroscato
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Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Iroscato »

First trailer dropped! This is looking tonally quite close to TWS...for me, that's just gravy.



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Yeah, I've always taken the subtext of the Birther movement to be, "The rules don't count here! This is different! HE'S BLACK! BLACK, I SAY! ARE YOU ALL BLIND!?

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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Mr Bean »

So we get some hints, the Accords are because people got freaked out by Slovkia being destroyed. I don't see the Vision anywhere but we do see the Panther. I also don't see Widow in any of the big teamup fight scenes but it's interesting that the entire civil war revolves around Bucky and an excellent tie in. The only one who pegs me as odd is Scarlet Witch, why is she with Cap other than to oppose Stark? Is it just that simple?

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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by FaxModem1 »

Mr Bean wrote:So we get some hints, the Accords are because people got freaked out by Slovkia being destroyed. I don't see the Vision anywhere but we do see the Panther. I also don't see Widow in any of the big teamup fight scenes but it's interesting that the entire civil war revolves around Bucky and an excellent tie in. The only one who pegs me as odd is Scarlet Witch, why is she with Cap other than to oppose Stark? Is it just that simple?
Steve and Hawkeye are the ones who convinced her to join the team and be an Avenger, it could simply be choosing the loyalty of those who have been loyal to you.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by NeoGoomba »

The Scarlet Witch has also looked into the minds of all of the Avengers, so she has some excellent insight into them all. She may simply follow Cap because she knows the kind of person he is, what he strives for, and prefers that to whatever end Iron Man may eventually bring them to.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Okay, I know trailers don't show everything, but I don't know why, based on this, anyone would be on Cap's side.

So, he takes the role of an unapologetic vigilante who refuses to be subjected to oversight and goes to war with the government over one guy who happens to be his friend? While Tony Stark is portrayed as the reasonable one?

Unless you're a hard core anti-government libertarian, I'm not sure who would watch that and think Cap is the good guy here. Leaving aside how arguably out of character it seems for both of them.

I mean, I could see it starting out over Bucky and spinning out of control from their, but I hope Cap has a better excuse to turn on his friends and country than "One guy I like who also was an assassin for Hydra (even if it was against his will) is being treated unfairly."

NeoGoomba- didn't Wanda have a major grudge against Tony? Where as Cap. was sympathetic to her and welcomed her to the Avengers' side? That might be all the reason she needs.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Iroscato »

I can see the fact that Hydra infiltrated SHIELD and certain parts of the government with apparent ease as one of the driving forces behind Steve's decision to rage against the system, as it were. I mean...super-Nazis were pulling the strings of global politics for decades and were just barely stopped by Cap 'n' Crew in a move played literally at the last second. That shit would sour the opinion of any sane person towards governing bodies.

But at the same time, you have to weigh that against the Avengers being accountable for their actions and being overseen. I wonder what the incident involving the Avengers will be that really sparks this all off, if it wasn't the events of Ultron.
Yeah, I've always taken the subtext of the Birther movement to be, "The rules don't count here! This is different! HE'S BLACK! BLACK, I SAY! ARE YOU ALL BLIND!?

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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by DesertFly »

Looks like it's time to bust out the old signature from 8-9 years ago. Unfortunately, for some reason all I had saved was the Davis version, so I had to do some quick and dirty recreation to get Lincoln again.

As for the trailer itself, it does appear to be rather weak motivations on Cap's side, although Tony acting like an arrogant prick is not making me want to support his side either. Hopefully the movie itself will provide clearer, more consistent reasoning for both, and give both actual good reasons to be supporting the arguments they are. I haven't read the comic storyline this was based on, but I widely heard that it was not done well, and really took Stark especially out of character to make him fit his role in the story. I feel the MCU has been building up this for awhile now, and really shows Stark as a man who can reasonably be willing to want people under oversight, what with the super-powered threats out there that the Avengers and other heroes have only barely stopped.

Hell, Tony was trying to create a global monitoring/peacekeeping system with Ultron, and it's only because of the error of using tech he didn't only understand did that turn into a crisis, instead of succeeding exactly as he wanted.

Meanwhile, Cap has already shown that he's willing to work against the established government if he feels the rights of the people are being stepped on. Look at Winter Soldier, where he was expressing strong doubts against Project Insight, another attempt to monitor and control emerging threats, even before it was revealed to be Hydra.

There was an excellent article I just read that provided some of these same arguments, and explained some of the ways that the two characters have already been moving towards the positions they will have in Civil War: http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2015/05/12/ ... -of-ultron
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Chimaera wrote:I can see the fact that Hydra infiltrated SHIELD and certain parts of the government with apparent ease as one of the driving forces behind Steve's decision to rage against the system, as it were. I mean...super-Nazis were pulling the strings of global politics for decades and were just barely stopped by Cap 'n' Crew in a move played literally at the last second. That shit would sour the opinion of any sane person towards governing bodies.

But at the same time, you have to weigh that against the Avengers being accountable for their actions and being overseen. I wonder what the incident involving the Avengers will be that really sparks this all off, if it wasn't the events of Ultron.
Well, I do wonder why the Marvel universe hasn't seen more backlash against the US government for being so infiltrated by Hydra. That goes beyond any historical case of corruption or a security breach. If that happened in the real world, I would expect impeachment of numerous officials (even beyond those who were proved to be members of Hydra) if not outright revolt and states seceding (with other states/the Federal government accusing those revolting/seceding of being part of Hydra). And that's not even getting into how the rest of the world would react (incidentally, was it said weather Hydra had so infiltrated any other nations' governments?) It would be an utter clusterfuck.

Which makes it all the more strange to have a conflict break out some time later over Bucky.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Iroscato »

Perhaps the government is using Bucky as a scapegoat - the 'face' of Hydra, something akin to Bin Laden.

"Look! We're doing something! Please don't revolt!" :P
Yeah, I've always taken the subtext of the Birther movement to be, "The rules don't count here! This is different! HE'S BLACK! BLACK, I SAY! ARE YOU ALL BLIND!?

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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Maybe.

Also, though, while I know that their basing this off of some earlier Marvel story, I have to say that with the American Right at perhaps a record level of insanity (at least in recent history), its a really bad time for a movie called "Civil War" which portrays the heroic Captain America revolting against the government.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Crazedwraith »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Maybe.

Also, though, while I know that their basing this off of some earlier Marvel story, I have to say that with the American Right at perhaps a record level of insanity (at least in recent history), its a really bad time for a movie called "Civil War" which portrays the heroic Captain America revolting against the government.
Do credit people with at least half a brain. People aren't going to revolt because of a movie called Civil War.

This is 'video games cause gun violence' style stupidity.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Mr Bean »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Maybe.

Also, though, while I know that their basing this off of some earlier Marvel story, I have to say that with the American Right at perhaps a record level of insanity (at least in recent history), its a really bad time for a movie called "Civil War" which portrays the heroic Captain America revolting against the government.
Why think big when it looks like from the trailer it could be small?

What if and stick with me here RR, but what if Bucky get's a shot on sight order issued? What if Captain after taking Bucky down goes off radar with Bucky rather than turn him in to be executed? Think the Bin Laden comparison, what if Bucky is labeled Public enemy number one by the government and Cap disagrees and further it's blunted stated the government knows he's right that Bucky was brainwashed, it does not excuse his actions per say but it does raise it from "shoot on sight" to "put into some mental institution and lock him up until he's sane again"

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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Gaidin »

That last line. That just sells it. Basically makes it Steve's movie no matter how many other characters are in it.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Crazedwraith wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:Maybe.

Also, though, while I know that their basing this off of some earlier Marvel story, I have to say that with the American Right at perhaps a record level of insanity (at least in recent history), its a really bad time for a movie called "Civil War" which portrays the heroic Captain America revolting against the government.
Do credit people with at least half a brain. People aren't going to revolt because of a movie called Civil War.

This is 'video games cause gun violence' style stupidity.
Can you quote where I said the film would make people revolt? No? Fuck off. I pretty much just said that its bad timing to have a film which has obvious parallels to far Right ideology (intended or not).

Although if people on the far Right can buy "Obama is a secret Muslim from Kenya", no, I'm not going to credit them with half a brain.

I have nothing more to say to you as long as you are either too stupid to read what I am saying or too dishonest to respond to it honestly.

Mr. Bean, thank you for actually writing a somewhat intelligent response to what I posted rather than engaging in knee-jerk defensiveness and dishonesty.

But do you really think they're going to go for small scale in a Marvel film based off the Civil War storyline which has this many big characters in it? Because I sure don't.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Crazedwraith »

The Romulan Republic wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:Maybe.

Also, though, while I know that their basing this off of some earlier Marvel story, I have to say that with the American Right at perhaps a record level of insanity (at least in recent history), its a really bad time for a movie called "Civil War" which portrays the heroic Captain America revolting against the government.
Do credit people with at least half a brain. People aren't going to revolt because of a movie called Civil War.

This is 'video games cause gun violence' style stupidity.
Can you quote where I said the film would make people revolt? No? Fuck off. I pretty much just said that its bad timing to have a film which has obvious parallels to far Right ideology (intended or not).
.

Oh please. It was a slight exaggeration, what you said was basically 'this is the wrong time for this, it's going to give the American Right ideas'

No it's not. No more than any other film about someone who is a bit of a rebel against authority. (which is most films, I'd wager)

So yes, the comparison with 'video games cause violence' is still valid. People are well able to tell the difference between fiction and reality.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Broken record. And it wasn't a slight exaggeration, it was at best a leap, inferring something I did not say from what I did.

Do I think it could conceivably inspire some people to do bad things? Yes. But probably people who are already disposed in that direction. Would it be the filmmakers' fault? No, unless they were creating the film as an analogy for current events and depicting revolt as the right course of action in that context.

And yeah, a lot of films are anti-authority. But having a superhero named Captain America apparently revolting against the government is a bit more blatant than some.

However, I'll acknowledge this much- the film hasn't come out yet. We don't know all the details or the full context. So I complete judgement of the film is not yet possible.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Crazedwraith »

Then what did you mean? Please re-phrase if I have apparently misunderstood you.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I though I just spent two posts kind of explaining that.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Civil War Man »

The Romulan Republic wrote:And yeah, a lot of films are anti-authority. But having a superhero named Captain America apparently revolting against the government is a bit more blatant than some.
While Captain America is not my favorite of the Marvel superheroes, I consider him to have the strongest solo movies of the MCU. It's because Cap embodies what are supposed to be American ideals, and Winter Soldier and now apparently Civil War show those ideals clashing with what America actually is.

Having him revolt against the government isn't necessarily a bad thing. The far right will probably not be that well-disposed towards him, since Cap is portrayed as consistently anti-fascist, and this past year has been right-wing ideologues trying to out-fascist each other. Keep in mind that Fox News was really furious over comic book Captain America having the utter gall to oppose a violent anti-immigrant militia.

He, to channel MLK's Birmingham Jail letter, rejects the negative peace of a lack of tension in favor of the positive peace of the presence of justice, even if he must fight the country he represents in order to attain it.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Crazedwraith »

I've actually watched the trailer now. I couldn't before. And I feel like I owe TRR an apology. I don't for a second thing this movie will have more than a negligible effect on inspiring 'some people to do bad things' but otoh, making all of Civil War be about Bucky seems kind of petty, small scale of Cap?

And after things like IM2, and AoU it seems a bit much for Tony to say 'hey we need limitations' unless it's spun as character development from those films but still you'd think he'd be more understand.

The effects for Iron Man look a little out as well.

*shrug* still intrigued in seeing the end product though.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Gandalf »

Perhaps Bucky's arrest or whatever is what sets Cap over the edge of the totally not fascistic SHIELD? When he was first defrosted, he unveiled their secret weapons program and global monitoring system. In his next film, it turned out that Hydra was running SHIELD. Perhaps he just decided "fuck these guys" once he found out that Bucky was going to go to Gitmo?
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Crazedwraith »

To be fair, I imagine the reason why most of the heroes are with him is simple friendship. They seem how loyal Cap is to Bucky and they know he'd probably do the same for any of them.

And it looks like BW is not on his side. So it's not universal.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Terralthra »

The idea of Captain America and Bucky beating Iron Man in a fistfight is...stretching my suspension of disbelief. Yeah, peak of human performance with an awesome shield, yeah, cybernetic arm...but Iron Man and War Machine had a fistfight with weight-lifting equipment. Iron Man took a 20 kilo frisbee of iron to the head to no apparent effect, then smacked War Machine with ~60 kilos of iron swung like a baseball bat. It knocked WM across the room, but again, to zero apparent damage to the suit or the person inside.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Crazedwraith wrote:To be fair, I imagine the reason why most of the heroes are with him is simple friendship. They seem how loyal Cap is to Bucky and they know he'd probably do the same for any of them.

And it looks like BW is not on his side. So it's not universal.
While I'd think her friendship with Cap. would count for something, Black Widow has basically built a career out of "necessary evil" for the state in the name of security.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Gaidin »

Terralthra wrote:The idea of Captain America and Bucky beating Iron Man in a fistfight is...stretching my suspension of disbelief. Yeah, peak of human performance with an awesome shield, yeah, cybernetic arm...but Iron Man and War Machine had a fistfight with weight-lifting equipment. Iron Man took a 20 kilo frisbee of iron to the head to no apparent effect, then smacked War Machine with ~60 kilos of iron swung like a baseball bat. It knocked WM across the room, but again, to zero apparent damage to the suit or the person inside.
It's not about overwhelming damage. It's about distracting damage so he can't focus. We've seen it in Avengers when he got surrounded but could only do damage to one at a time. And then a key point is one of them goes for the power core, which is also a point in the trailer.
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