Captain America: Civil War thread

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LadyTevar
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by LadyTevar »

biostem wrote:
Elheru Aran wrote:
biostem wrote:

Other than the cybernetic arm and training, is Bucky enhanced in any other way?
Well, he pretty much has to be, he's a close match to Cap physically and pulls off some crazy tricks like that big jump between the two buildings, and can go toe-to-toe with Black Panther. It's quite possible that the Russians had a derivative of the Super-Soldier Serum that they were trying out on their own.

Plus of course there's the whole "has lived since before WWII and doesn't look THAT much older" thing...
To the last point, they would cryogenically freeze him when he wasn't out on a job, so he's really only lived a couple of weeks or so between the time he was captured and modern times...
You boys are forgetting that Cap's "first mission" was to rescue Bucky and the other captured men from Red Skull's base. It's clearly shown in the base that Bucky was being experimented on by Skull, and quite possibly had been exposed to a version of the Super Serum as part of Skull's attempts to recreate it for Hydra.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by LadyTevar »

NOW HEAR THIS:
Terralthra
ArmorPierce
Simon Jester

Take the Democrat/Republican fight OUT of this Thread and to PMs, or I am flushing all three of you to the HOS. First and ONLY warning.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Simon_Jester »

[complies with mod instruction]
LadyTevar wrote:You boys are forgetting that Cap's "first mission" was to rescue Bucky and the other captured men from Red Skull's base. It's clearly shown in the base that Bucky was being experimented on by Skull, and quite possibly had been exposed to a version of the Super Serum as part of Skull's attempts to recreate it for Hydra.
Did he show any signs of an augmented physique, though?

Also, unless the Red Skull had full knowledge of how the serum was made (unlikely in my opinion), any serum he concocted would tend to be inferior to the real thing, probably with negative side effects. Which, again, Bucky showed no sign of.

Basically, Bucky acted like a completely normal and mundane soldier, so I'm dubious of the claim that he was in any significant way 'enhanced' by HYDRA as a result of whatever experiments they performed on him.

Now, he may very well have been enhanced subsequently, after his second capture by Hydra, or by the Soviets if they had control of him during the Cold War.
biostem wrote:There's a comment in the first Avengers that the Tesseract would allow them to draw energy from space, but there was also the implication that the portal that allowed Loki through wasn't just something anyone could pull off, and that either Thanos was involved or that he simply needed an Asgardian as they were rugged enough to survive the trip.
Very possible and interesting- would explain a lot. Still, though, the takeaway is that artifacts of cosmic power indistinguishable from magic tend to have properties that even the technologically sophisticated Earth of the Marvel Cinematic Universe can't fully understand. We might be able to reverse-engineer a starship but we can't predict just what an artifact like the Mind Gem is going to be capable of. Which is a good argument for NOT jacking it into an already potentially hazardous and untried prototype system to "see what happens."
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by LadyTevar »

Simon_Jester wrote:[complies with mod instruction]
LadyTevar wrote:You boys are forgetting that Cap's "first mission" was to rescue Bucky and the other captured men from Red Skull's base. It's clearly shown in the base that Bucky was being experimented on by Skull, and quite possibly had been exposed to a version of the Super Serum as part of Skull's attempts to recreate it for Hydra.
Did he show any signs of an augmented physique, though?

Also, unless the Red Skull had full knowledge of how the serum was made (unlikely in my opinion), any serum he concocted would tend to be inferior to the real thing, probably with negative side effects. Which, again, Bucky showed no sign of.

Basically, Bucky acted like a completely normal and mundane soldier, so I'm dubious of the claim that he was in any significant way 'enhanced' by HYDRA as a result of whatever experiments they performed on him.

Now, he may very well have been enhanced subsequently, after his second capture by Hydra, or by the Soviets if they had control of him during the Cold War.
Bucky did survive having an arm shot off, falling out of a train, down a chasm, and into a river in the middle of winter. If the serum hadn't kicked in before, that probably jump-started it. But, yes, Hydra certainly took what was there and boosted it as much as possible, while mind-raping him and giving him the shiny arm.

Still.... there's something I've been looking at with Bucky's book.
In AoS season 1, we were introduced to more victims of Hydra mind-games. Whenever a Hydra agent spoke the code, the victims would answer they were "In Compliance". The codes used by Modern Hydra agents were full sentences that could be mistaken as conversation, but the results were the same: a blank look and a willingness to obey the agent's orders with very murderous intent. Now, compare that to the code they used on Bucky. The words are random, and in a set order. You'd never mistake them for conversation. The words also seem to cause Bucky pain when the code starts taking hold. But, once the code takes hold and the activator speaks the word "Soldier", Bucky's response is "Ready to Comply."

So. One could assume that Bucky's programming was the basis for all later Hydra mind-fuckery. Assuming that fact, one could then say Bucky's Book could not only give leads on de-programming Bucky, but also any other Hydra victims.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Simon_Jester »

Tev wrote:Bucky did survive having an arm shot off, falling out of a train, down a chasm, and into a river in the middle of winter. If the serum hadn't kicked in before, that probably jump-started it.
The problem is that this is then the only evidence we have for him being on the serum at this time is that he survived a "no one could have survived that" fate. This being an action movie, it's a bit uncertain to rely on that as evidence.

The MCU wiki suggests that you are correct, though. Though I'm not clear on how this is known, having apparently missed that episode of a TV show or some such.

Even without the wiki, though, I'd be convinced of the HYDRA mind control conditioning.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Well, I've seen the movie. I'm not going to write a full, in-depth review now (maybe later), but a few points:

1. This film reminds me quite a bit of Batman V Superman, so its interesting that they ended up coming out so close together. They're big crossover vs. fights, of course, and they have some of the same flaws. They're messy (in part due to how they try to fit so many characters in), and the reasons for the big show down are somewhat muddled and contrived. However, I'd honestly say that despite being messier in terms of story/editing, Batman v Superman is probably the better film, for two main reasons. First, I didn't feel that it was really endorsing the idea that superheroes should be above the law to the extent that Civil War is. And more clearly, it just felt more epic and had more of an emotional impact for me, whereas much of Civil War felt like it was trying to be light fluffy fun while dealing with a very dark and serious subject, and ultimately lacked weight or significant consequences for the heroes. To be blunt, I think it would have been a better film if Rhodey had died, and a large part of the team had remained in prison at the end. Maybe even have Cap or Tony die. Show that a civil war has real, big, lasting fucking consequences.

2. I do think, as I said above, that the film was primarily taking Cap's side and endorsing the idea that heroes should be above the law, above government oversight. And that's not something I can sympathize with. Its particularly frustrating because you could easily have come up with a story without that. Even if you want to show Cap. in a positive light- they could have had Tony simply be driven from the start by a vendetta to avenge his parents against the man who killed them, made it a purely personal conflict. Or they could have had Cap aware from the start of Bucky's innocence, and be defending an innocent friend from a witch hunt. Or had Hydra or someone like them be behind the Accords, and played up the whole "register all superhumans" angle which cropped up in tonight's Agents of SHIELD. Or any combination of the above. Elements of all of these are present, but since the heroes are not aware of them until later in the film, and Cap is clearly opposed to the Accords on principle from the start, it comes out as "Iconic American hero leads "principled" revolt against government oversight, accountability, and the rule of law."

3. I'll just quote something that I just put in the Agents of SHIELD season three thread (spoilers for the show), because I think that in some ways, at least, the show actually handled the subject better.
The episode relates heavily to Captain America: Civil War, Spoiler
though in this case the emphasis is on the Sokovia Accords requiring the registration of all inhumans. You know, if they'd played that up in the movie, and made it Cap's reason for opposing the Accords, I'd have probably had at least a little bit more sympathy with his rebellion against accountability and government oversight. :roll:

Also... SHIELD just made the Avengers looks like pathetic incompetents. Coulson clearly opposes the Accords and sympathizes with Cap, but does he fight it out with General Talbot? No, they talk it out like mature adults and come to an understanding, showing the government representative that SHIELD can get the job done. I still don't like the anti-oversight/intelligence organizations need to be unaccountable message, but I appreciate that they were relatively reasonable about it.

And here you have Coulson and company fighting Hive, who's a threat to the whole God damn Earth, while the Avengers are engaging in their infighting and don't even know that there's this looming threat to the Earth.

Seriously, watching Civil War and then this episode on the same day just drives the point home for me- SHIELD just showed up the Avengers and made them look like a bunch of useless asshats in a pissing contest while the world burns, with SHIELD being the people who are actually getting shit done.
Good on you Coulson. You just outdid Captain America and Iron Man in the world-saving business.
Ultimately, I think this is one of the weakest MCU films. But to show that I'm fair, I will say that their were individual elements that I liked. It would take a while to list them all, because this is one of those films that has a lot of good individual moments inside a very weak framework (again, like Batman V Superman), but two in particular-

Hawkeye taking out Vision. In that moment, he basically became the Batman of the MCU.

Black Panther's confrontation with the villain at the end. Beautiful. That scene alone makes him one of my new favourite MCU characters.

I do feel kind of bad for the guy playing Spiderman, though. He's not a bad actor, exactly, but they did him no favours by making his introductory scene opposite Robert fucking Downey Jr., who easily stole the scene from him.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Crazedwraith »

1. You don't have to be grim-dark and kill people especially big characters like Steve or Tony that you then have to ressurect for justice league Avengers 3. CW ends with the complete destruction of the Avengers. Crippling of one and most of the rest are fugitives. Thats plenty big consequences. Killing people and bringing them back. The MCUs done that too often and I think it's good they resisted.

2. Well done you suggests would rem9ve the ambiguity and conflict and thus completely ruin the power of the film. Because the power is people who friendly getting inyo fights thst they don't want over their diffrences. What really gives it impact and weight to me is the preceding 8 years of films that have made us actually care about these characters and their fates. If it didn't quite inexorably lead up to this (Tony's character is a bit inconsistent tbh ) it least invests us in them.

Though it is a weakness in the film and the MCU that Steve and Tony have been at odds to provide tension in both previous Avengers movies. So the destruction of their friendship isn't as big an impact as it was in the comics (I assume) where they've built up a friendship over decades of comics.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Crazedwraith wrote:1. You don't have to be grim-dark and kill people especially big characters like Steve or Tony that you then have to ressurect for justice league Avengers 3. CW ends with the complete destruction of the Avengers. Crippling of one and most of the rest are fugitives. Thats plenty big consequences. Killing people and bringing them back. The MCUs done that too often and I think it's good they resisted.

2. Well done you suggests would rem9ve the ambiguity and conflict and tbus completely ruin the power of the film. Because the power is people who friendly getting inyo fights thst they don't want over their diffrences.
First, I'm not saying the film has to be grimdark. I hate gratuitously dark/cynical films. I just think a real civil war is not something your entire cast should emerge from largely unscathed (because we know the Avengers are going to get back together, they're already patching things up at the end somewhat, and I doubt Rhody will stay crippled either).

Maybe not have Steve or Tony die. But I'd have left Rhody dead and most of Caps' side in prison at the end, I think.

And I'd have cut back on the level of light-hearted quips.

As to removing the ambiguity- I'll admit I tend to enjoy the clear cut good vs. evil stories, but that's not really what I'm shooting for here.

Take the "Tony is out for revenge for his parents thing"- I don't agree with that motive, but it would be sympathetic, and not far out of keeping with the motivations of a lot of other superheroes/action movie heroes. It wouldn't remove ambiguity, simply shift the fight to a purely personal clash between the characters and avoid endorsing a political position I find dangerous and indefensible while still letting Cap's side be sympathetic.

Or take the "superhuman registry" thing. There's plenty of room for ambiguity there, between the need for security when dealing with people who are so powerful and potentially dangerous and the moral implications of regulating people based on their biological nature, and the question of weather its really worth fighting a war over either way. I'd clearly come down on the anti-registration side their, but probably not to the point of wanting to fight a war over it. And both sides could make a case.

Or the other idea, of Hydra being behind it or whatever. A bit hokey, sure, and something of a rehash of Winter Soldier perhaps, but in that case neither side in the conflict are really bad guys. Its just that somebody's being played.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Crazedwraith »

Killing off Rhodey would have kick started the revenge plot earlier than in film happened. So they'd have to re-write that reveal. I think the way they did it got most of the impact while still allowing that twist at the end.

I do agree with that the breakout at the end was sort of rushed and a bit forced the end of a higher note for Steve, it is a Cap movie after all. It might have been better to leave it to the start of Avengers 3 but then the film seemed to go with the MCU taking place in real time. So that would leave them languishing on the raft for two years. I don't know if the characters have got any cameos schedule between then and now.


I don't really want to get into the political argument again (why I didn't respond to you big last post btw. Apologies for that. And given the mod warning above as well) but I don't really see that Civil War was about registration not on Cap's side at least. He's against registration certainly. But he's fighting for Bucky and against Zemo's presumed world domination plan. If there wasn't that spark point, there wouldn't have been a Civil War over registration alone.

There would have eventually been another flash point when Cap saw something his chronic hero syndrome wouldn't let him ignore.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Interestingly, I don't think Zemo had a world domination plan. He was in it for revenge, and was ready to shoot himself once he'd seen that through.

It was a very different take for a supervillain- no grand scheme and not one major fight scene.

I don't know if Cap would have gone to war over registration directly, but he refused to sign the Accords, he wouldn't retire (or wouldn't for long) like you said, and so in the end it comes to the same thing. Cap breaks the Accords, gets hunted down.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Crazedwraith »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Interestingly, I don't think Zemo had a world domination plan. He was in it for revenge, and was ready to shoot himself once he'd seen that through.
Zemo's plan wasn't World Domination. But Cap/Bucky/Iron Man didn't know that until they reached the silo and the other Winter Soldiers were dead already.

Zemo really is one of the MCU most effective and interesting villains I'd say. Up there with Loki.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by LadyTevar »

Crazedwraith wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:Interestingly, I don't think Zemo had a world domination plan. He was in it for revenge, and was ready to shoot himself once he'd seen that through.
Zemo's plan wasn't World Domination. But Cap/Bucky/Iron Man didn't know that until they reached the silo and the other Winter Soldiers were dead already.

Zemo really is one of the MCU most effective and interesting villains I'd say. Up there with Loki.
I have to agree.
We see in the movie several hints of the lengths he's willing to go to. Even when we see him recovering Bucky's Book, Zemo is already warning the Hydra agent that if Zemo doesn't get the information, more people will die. We're told he'd found everything he needed to start the plan in the information Widow released to the public. We're shown Zemo has a bomb. We're shown he has an intense interest in finding and controlling Bucky, as well as Zemo's interest in Dec 16 1991. We see him interrogate Bucky, and we hear from Bucky that there's more Winter Soldiers.

We're fed every indication that Zemo is after the Winter Soldiers, and we agree with Cap's guesses on what Zemo could use them for. The Dec 16 1991 tapes are even shown tied to how the Winter Soldiers were made -- the bags of serum Bucky retrieves from the wrecked car are used in their creation. Five bags, five soldiers. We know Zemo got the information from Bucky on where they were kept, as we see Zemo leaving for Moscow immediately after Bucky's engineered escape (covering Zemo's tracks, perhaps?). All this info played out to our expectations ... and even with the recorded message from Zemo's wife emphasized, we see it only as a reason for going after the Winter Soldiers.

The writers/director played *US*, just like the Avengers got played by Zemo. It was very well-done.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by biostem »

One point I'm not clear on - so Black Widow releases all these files in Winter Soldier, Zemo manages to decode some of them, and what exactly does he find? I would assume that Stark would have either similarly decoded those files or already got them in Avengers 1, when he hacked Shield. Was Zemo already aware of the assassination of Stark's parents, and was just looking for the video to pit Stark against Rogers? It would be interesting to see if, for instance, the leaked info contained plans to any Hydra weapons or gear, and to have other groups attempt to replicate them.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Lost Soal »

Lets run through the events and discuss the implications of this film, many of which are very troubling.
The Sakovia Accords are supposed to be about oversight and culpability for the Avengers and Ross brings up past events to show how dangerous and indiscriminate they can be.
New York - They spent the entire fight trying to contain the Chitauri, protect civilians and get them out of the area, but Ross is happy to ignore this. Also the Avengers had oversight at this time and said oversight tried to nuke the city.
Washington DC - Helicariers dropping out of the sky has been mentioned multiple times, yet no one mentions the fact that literally two seconds later the Helicariers would have murdered several hundred thousand people. Shield were the authorities and Caps oversight. They had declared him a criminal and he was being hunted, so how else were they supposed to stop them.
Sokovia - This one is a very grey area. Again they went out of their way to save as many people as possible but this probably wouldn't have happened in the first place without Tony & Bruce. I say probably because if they hadn't acted against Hydra then Von Struka may have created his own version of Ultron, they were building robots already.
Africa (Can't remember the city) - Crossbones had stolen a biological weapon and his suicide bomb would have killed far more people on the street since there wasn't a building in the way of the blast.

Ross's analogy about Thor and Hulk, "If I misplaced a couple 30 megaton nukes there would be consequences for him."
Thor & Hulk are not his possessions to misplace. I'm not over reacting to this as we say in Incredible Hulk that Ross considered Banner to be the property of the US (government and probably still does) and suggests he doesn't think Thor should be entitled to any independence.
I also find it hilarious for General Ross to be lecturing the Avengers considering he is the one who deployed the Army in the Us (an illegal act I believe) and attacked Banner on a university campus knowing full well it would unleash the Hulk, plus their covert assault in Brazil.

Then there's the Accords themselves and the many unknown questions.
How many members of this UN panel?
Who is on the panels?
How is action decided? A simple majority vote, supermajority of some amount or would it have to be unanimous? Would anyone have Veto powers? These are important facts ripe for abuse as we know from real life how local politics have led to sanctions and actions being vetoed because one or more of the voting members want to protect their allies.
In order for this panel to be effective all members would need to be ready to come together and vote at a moments notice because we;ve seen the events the Avengers have been involved in do not allow for large delays. The panel representatives would also need to be able to act without having to go back the their boss and ask if it OK.

From this point on we can safely assume that the Accords are in effect and everything that happens next is covered by the Accords. We can assume this because Tony says if Steve signs they can make his pursuit of Bucky a legal sanctioned act and this can only occur if the laws of the Accords are now in effect.
So, under the Accords.
Thee very notion of Bucky getting a lawyer was scoffed at. They won't provide one, they won't even allow one to be hired on Steve's dime.
Tony is deployed to capture Cap & Bucky be US Sec of State Ross. How? Is he on the panel? Didn't think that would be legal.
When half the Avengers are captured they are stuck in a black site prison with none of the legal rights of US prisoners and this prison is under the preview of Sec Ross. Again. He also suggests he could have Stark thrown in the Raft because he failed to capture Steve and Bucky. Not that he refused or let him go, but because he didn't succeed.
A lot of noise has been made about the dangers of powered individuals and the need to control them. Has everyone forgotten that Clint; Sam & Scott have no powers. They aren't enhanced. There effectiveness comes from equipment and training which potentially anyone can obtained.
When Zemo is captured he is kept immobile and isolated, only allowed to use a toilet twice a day, and can be subject to electric shock whenever Everett Ross feels like it. These are factors I feel likely violate the UN Convention of human Rights as well as probably a few others and they are all directed once again at a man who has NO POWERS WHATSOEVER. Nothing. He is nothing more than a trained soldier and I guarantee no incarcerated soldier (of a humane country) is treated so differently.

This is oversight and control.

This is horrifying
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Simon_Jester »

Yeah. Cap has reason to want to resist this kind of thing, regardless of any argument for 'accountability.'
biostem wrote:One point I'm not clear on - so Black Widow releases all these files in Winter Soldier, Zemo manages to decode some of them, and what exactly does he find? I would assume that Stark would have either similarly decoded those files or already got them in Avengers 1, when he hacked Shield.
Presumably, when Stark hacked SHIELD he only succeeded in hacking the non-HYDRA parts of the database. I'm fairly sure Stark would have said something if he'd uncovered references to a secret HYDRA conspiracy within SHIELD.

There's no obvious reason why HYDRA would even allow any of its own secret files on the conspiracy to be placed aboard the helicarrier, so far as I can tell. So Stark's hacking in the first Avengers movie might simply not tell him anything about HYDRA's own secrets, or anything about SHIELD that is known only to the pro-HYDRA conspirators.

Then Black Widow came along and dumped literally everything, because she was actively trying to expose and 'burn' HYDRA at the same time that she wiped out SHIELD's secrecy and aired its dirty laundry. Now the information on the assassination of Howard Stark was available... but Stark had reached an accommodation with SHIELD and may not have bothered to trawl the files himself. Especially since he knew his father was one of the founding members of SHIELD and had no reason to expect there to be any evidence that HYDRA used the Winter Soldier to kill him.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by LadyTevar »

Lost Soal wrote:Lets run through the events and discuss the implications of this film, many of which are very troubling.
The Sakovia Accords are supposed to be about oversight and culpability for the Avengers and Ross brings up past events to show how dangerous and indiscriminate they can be.
New York - They spent the entire fight trying to contain the Chitauri, protect civilians and get them out of the area, but Ross is happy to ignore this. Also the Avengers had oversight at this time and said oversight tried to nuke the city.
Washington DC - Helicariers dropping out of the sky has been mentioned multiple times, yet no one mentions the fact that literally two seconds later the Helicariers would have murdered several hundred thousand people. Shield were the authorities and Caps oversight. They had declared him a criminal and he was being hunted, so how else were they supposed to stop them.
Sokovia - This one is a very grey area. Again they went out of their way to save as many people as possible but this probably wouldn't have happened in the first place without Tony & Bruce. I say probably because if they hadn't acted against Hydra then Von Struka may have created his own version of Ultron, they were building robots already.
Africa (Can't remember the city) - Crossbones had stolen a biological weapon and his suicide bomb would have killed far more people on the street since there wasn't a building in the way of the blast.
What we see Ross showing **wasn't** military or journalistic video. What we saw Ross showing was all hand-held, civilian cameras. And, in each of those videos, we see the tragedy hitting the one filming.

New York: Hulk jumps to a building, and the debris falls *on* the civilian videotaping it. Implied injury and/or death from falling debris
Washington DC: Civilian videoing the fall of a helicarrier from a low-rise building, then building gets hit by the tidal wave thrown up from its landing. Implied injury from wave and/or glass breaking from the wave.
Sokovia: While the top of the plateau *is* being evacuated, other civilians videotape large buildings and chunks of earth falling off the sides, onto buildings below. Documented deaths of whole families.
Laos: The middle section of a multi-story building firebombed from one side to the other. Videotape shows multiple injuries, and a shot of a dead woman.

Again.... this isn't military footage, this isn't national journalism, this is someone's youtube feed. This is proof that while they are saving the world, eggs are getting broken. There's been far too much collateral damage, and Ross was driving that home in the most blatant way he could, like the asshole he is. (No wonder Talbot likes him)
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Kojiro »

Saw it again last night, still think it's great.

The first time I saw it I didn't quite catch what Romanov says to Bucky during the escape fight. This time I did. She says : Spoiler
"Don't you recognise me?"
Which heavily implies they've worked together previously. We know Natasha has a dark past in Russian black ops so it's entirely possible. That could be in interesting story.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by LadyTevar »

Sorry, had to break up the questions to give answers properly.
Lost Soal wrote:Then there's the Accords themselves and the many unknown questions.
How many members of this UN panel?
Who is on the panels?
How is action decided? A simple majority vote, supermajority of some amount or would it have to be unanimous? Would anyone have Veto powers? These are important facts ripe for abuse as we know from real life how local politics have led to sanctions and actions being vetoed because one or more of the voting members want to protect their allies.
In order for this panel to be effective all members would need to be ready to come together and vote at a moments notice because we;ve seen the events the Avengers have been involved in do not allow for large delays. The panel representatives would also need to be able to act without having to go back the their boss and ask if it OK.
I don't think we'll get a look at the full Accords, because sometimes "Show Don't Tell" is the best way to work a movie. ;)
It also allows them to amend the Accords to fit the movie, and not have us nerds go back and point out "... but it said clearly HERE... In Section 4, part A subsection......" ;)

Now... how many members. I think a number... 27? was mentioned? Or perhaps that was something about how many had called for it. But the IRL UN Security Council has five (5) permanent members, and ten (10) elected members. There's a good chance art will follow life in this case.
Who is on the Panel? Heh... really? Besides the USA, UK, Russia, France, and China, who are permanent members of the UN Security Council as well? There *will* be a Wakandan Representative on the council. Why? Because that's how T'chala and Cap can keep a hand on the wheel. At this point, the UN doesn't know T'chala's hiding the Secret Avengers. On the other hand, they most likely know he followed Stark to Siberia, "rescued" Stark from Siberia, and caught the real UN bomber. So, he's got the status to insist on inclusion, and if needed he could remind them of his father's death and guilt them into it.

How is action decided. Well... according to the UN Security Council's website
Article 27 of the UN Charter states that:
Each member of the Security Council shall have one vote.
Decisions of the Security Council on procedural matters shall be made by an affirmative vote of nine members.
Decisions of the Security Council on all other matters shall be made by an affirmative vote of nine members including the concurring votes of the permanent members; provided that, in decisions under Chapter VI, and under paragraph 3 of Article 52, a party to a dispute shall abstain from voting.
Assuming, again, they base the rules on IRL UN policies: the 15 members each have ONE vote, and a majority of 9 votes is needed to act.

Veto Powers might lay in the hands of the Security Council, as we don't yet know if the UN will have a separate council for the Accords, or fold it under the Security Council. Either way, that's going to be a LOT of power given to the 5 permanent members, especially if they are given the authority to act on a situation without getting feedback from their heads-of-state.
Which won't happen, any more than the UN Security Council can go to the bathroom without checking with their heads-of-state AND the 5 permanent members. Yes, there's 10 elected members, who technically could band together and get a vote through. However, those nations are only in for a 2yr term, with half of the ten replaced every year.
There's a list of Countries that have been elected members over the decades. Interesting reading on who seems to get seats most often, and when. Again, this is assuming MCU will steal IRL policy (it's easier that way), and just add in a few of Marvel's own nations. It would be amusing to have a Latverian on the Accord Council, wouldn't it?
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by LadyTevar »

Part the Third:
Lost Soal wrote:A lot of noise has been made about the dangers of powered individuals and the need to control them. Has everyone forgotten that Clint; Sam & Scott have no powers. They aren't enhanced. There effectiveness comes from equipment and training which potentially anyone can obtained.
When Zemo is captured he is kept immobile and isolated, only allowed to use a toilet twice a day, and can be subject to electric shock whenever Everett Ross feels like it. These are factors I feel likely violate the UN Convention of human Rights as well as probably a few others and they are all directed once again at a man who has NO POWERS WHATSOEVER. Nothing. He is nothing more than a trained soldier and I guarantee no incarcerated soldier (of a humane country) is treated so differently.

This is oversight and control.

This is horrifying
Welcome to the Accords. I'm not sure when or why The Raft was built. I'm not even sure who they were gonna put there. If it was SHIELD, they removed all tags. If it was a Hydra-project funded by SHIELD, it makes far more sense. Have to have a nice safe place to hide dissidents and conduct experiments on Enhanced beings, right? :evil:

Otherwise? *sigh* In AoS we saw many SHIELD personnel referring to Enhanced as "It" or "Them". First rule of being able to lock someone up without caring about if it's right or wrong? Don't See Them As Human. Don't see Them as a person, with Right to Trial, to Due Process. By what They are (or what They've done), those rights don't apply to Them. If what They did was bad enough, They lost the Right to be treated as Human.
We humans rather like separating people into US and THEM... it starts as far back as the school playground. Are we surprised it hits the Global Playground as well?
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by LadyTevar »

Kojiro wrote:Saw it again last night, still think it's great.

The first time I saw it I didn't quite catch what Romanov says to Bucky during the escape fight. This time I did. She says : Spoiler
"Don't you recognise me?"
Which heavily implies they've worked together previously. We know Natasha has a dark past in Russian black ops so it's entirely possible. That could be in interesting story.
Her line is "You could at least recognize me."
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by FaxModem1 »

I'm curious just how more advanced they'll make Wakanda compared to the rest of the world. One of the key things that turned Black Panther from heroic king to utter asshole was his insistence on not giving the cure to cancer to the rest of the world, because we still smoked cigarettes.

There's also the question of just what they're planning on doing with Bucky since he made his choice. He's practically screaming sequel bait right now.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Simon_Jester »

Kojiro wrote:Saw it again last night, still think it's great.

The first time I saw it I didn't quite catch what Romanov says to Bucky during the escape fight. This time I did. She says : Spoiler
"Don't you recognise me?"
Which heavily implies they've worked together previously. We know Natasha has a dark past in Russian black ops so it's entirely possible. That could be in interesting story.
Well, he SHOT her (Black Widow tells the story to Cap in his second movie), and left a scar which she appears to be rather self-conscious about.

Then he actively tried to kill her AGAIN during the events of Captain America 2.

So yeah, "you could at least recognize me" seems fair. :D
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by JamesStaley »

Okay, I can see that this thread was started before the movie began and is based only on the previews & information that was available before it began. But what does everybody think now that the movie is out?

I went to see the movie Saturday May 14th, 2016, and I thought it ROCKED!

Not being a total devotee to Marvel or DC or any American comics recently, there are some characters I don't anything (or very much) about. Who's the girl with the tele-kinetic hands? I've never understood exactly "who" or'"what" Vision is or is supposed to be (I did see his "origin" in The Avengers movie, but i'm still unclear about him). I didn't see The Ant movie, so his ability to turn himself into Ultraman (Japanese Superhero) and grow large was as much of a surprise to me as it was to the guys in the movie, and I loved Spiderman's reference to Star Wars and how they dealt with walking giants by tieing their legs up, and Iron Man's growing frustrated by his new friend's geekdom! :D :roll: :oops:

As for the battle at the airport, I thought "....aren't you the guys who are supposed to be PROTECTING life, liberty and property, and you're BOTH out here doing about a billion dollar$ worth of damage?!!!

Anyway, as a movie, it's great and I recommend seeing it. I give it five of these :luv: :luv: :luv: :luv: :luv:
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by Crazedwraith »

JamesStaley wrote:Okay, I can see that this thread was started before the movie began and is based only on the previews & information that was available before it began. But what does everybody think now that the movie is out?
We've been discussing that for the last six-ish pages. The first post-release post os Here

Teleketic Girl was the Scarlet Witch or was introduce in Age Of Ultron. Ant-Man never became Giant-Man in his film so that was a surprise to everyone not familiar with the comics.
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Re: Captain America: Civil War thread

Post by LadyTevar »

I think that this point we could probably stop putting up spoilers, as the movie has been out a couple weeks and most everyone has seen the movie at least once by now.

To answer your question, JamesStaley:

The Vision is an andoid made from Vibranium and powered by the Gemstone from Loki's Staff. The gemstone was the code-source for both Ultron and the Vision, although we can see there is a vast difference between how that programming dictated their actions. The Vision's powers of Flight may be from his construction, as Ultron could also hover. Vision's control over his personal Density may be due to the Vibranium, which is named for it's unique vibration properties that make it resistant to most damage (See Cap's Shield: only Black Panther's vibranium claws really left a mark). The Vision may use this vibrational property to seem to ghost through other matter (and people), but it's more likely to be an ability given by the Gemstone, like his power-beam. What we do see when Wanda (Scarlet Witch) attacks him is the Gemstone reacting to her power first, then the Vision's density increasing to the point the floor beneath him can't take his weight and collapse. The sub-levels also collapse from his mass plus gravity from his fall.

It's been theorized that Vision's Gem is the "Mind Stone", one of the so-called "Infinity Stones" as per MCU-verse, along with the Tesseract, the Grey Ooze, and the Orb from previous movies. There are six (6) Stones in total: Mind (Vision's Gem), Space (Tesseract), Reality (Ooze), Power (Orb), Time (?), and Soul (?). The Stones were once gathered and fitted into the Infinity Gauntlet, which allowed the wearer to use them in concert to devastating effect. We have seen TWO (yes, 2) such Gauntlets: A Right-Handed glove in Odin's Vault, and a Left-Handed Gauntlet worn by Thanos himself.
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Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
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