Marvel's Jessica Jones on Netflix

[Terralthra]

Jessica Jones has been really deeply affecting for me, as someone who was in and only recently got out of an abusive, manipulative marriage. The show is about manipulation and narcissism in a way that makes it understandable to people who haven't been there, and I love it for that alone.

[Tsyroc]

IMDB's forum had a lot people complaining about and arguing about the sex scenes. I liked that they were there, although I thought one could have been directed better. I was a little annoyed at Daredevil that it teased at some nudity/sex with Karen in one of the early episodes and then that was it. It's not that Daredevil needs sex scenes or nudity it was just an annoying tease that didn't need to be there.

I think the sex scenes could have been cut without impacting the story but their inclusion I don't think hurts the story or flow either. Plus it shows us what happens when superpowered people bang. Shit breaks.

I think they could have been cut, but I do think they add to how emotionally damaged Jessica, and to a lesser extent Cage is. I guess Trish is damaged as well but I don't think her sex sessions with the cop had anything to do with that. Jessica is a walking trainwreck for much of the show. Plus, the first Jessica/Cage scene is almost lifted from the book, just toned down so there's no anal.

This is me speaking as a white straight dude, but I would think LGBT people would like the portrayal of the lawyer chick Hogarth (every time I hear that I can't help but think of the Iron Giant). She cheats, she lies, she breaks up with her wife to get in some younger panties, and is an asshole. Just like a straight guy would be in that situation (which makes sense because apparently the character was originally a straight dude). It shows LGBT characters are just like everyone else, flawed. Other then the gender of one of the parties involved there is literally no difference between the 10 thousand similar guy cheats on wife with younger woman stories that have been going on probably since words were put on paper.

I don't think it feeds into the "lesbians are evil" trope because only one is, the other two seem pretty nice to the point the dumped wife is so squeaky clean Jessica can't find any dirt on her. Only one of the lesbians are evil and she ain't evil because she is gay but because she is evil, she'd be exactly the same whether she was still wanting to bang Neo or was a dude.

I feel the pretty much the same way. It just that I've seen shows with lesbian storylines where some viewers have gone apeshit about something that to me seemed to work perfectly well in the story.

Do you think Hoggarth is evil? I do think she isn't the most moral person who made some selfish, and incredibly foolish, mistakes. I think that when she was arguing with Pam in the interrogation booth she reacted as a lawyer and not as someone speaking to her lover. I thought it looked like she realized the mistake almost immediately but it had finished completely alienating Pam to the point where I don't think she was going to be able to explain her way out of that one that day or anytime soon.

Wendy was being pretty shitty through the divorce, but she did seem to still be decent to everyone else, even Pam.

If anything, this show reminded me of many of the gritty British crime series, except with a couple of super powered people and set in the Marvel Universe. That sort of thing clearly isn't for everyone and I like that Marvel is making a wide range of products that aren't necessarily intended for everyone.

Thats a legitimate complaint I've seen some have. They are wanting to watch a superhero show when JJ is a crime drama with superheros. Its the complaint some (okay alot) had about Stargate Universe, they wanted to watch a sci-fi adventure show but instead they got some soap opera drama in a sci-fi setting.

Now personally I don't think its bad that JJ isn't a traditional cape show but I can see how others might. Superhero shows are supposed to have action and greater then life stories. Even Daredevil as close to street level as it did had some pretty large elements such as the mystery of the Kingpin, Madam Gau or whatever the old lady with a wicked punches name was, and Daredevils own powers. In JJ those elements either don't exist or are downplayed heavily.

And again that ain't a bad thing but I can certainly see how might think it is. Of course unlike Fargate Universe this show don't suck and is still close enough to the proceeding shows to feel similar and comfortable but different enough to not be stale. And most importantly its not boring, mostly, there was a few parts like the Kilgrave family home shit I yawned at but overall it held my attention unlike Universe where the 1st 5 episodes after the pilot were all so goddamn boring.

To me it wasn't a negative either, but I like those sort of shows and I liked the Alias comic a lot. I like plenty of the traditional super hero stuff but I also like the character with special abilities not going the traditional comic book hero route.

[Vendetta]

A couple of things that I wasn't expecting that were kind of cool.

Sneaking "Nuke" in there. At least I'm guessing that Simpson is essentially that character from Daredevil. The colored pills, the paranoia and psychosis certainly fit.

I dunno, I think he was the weak link in the show. Everyone else has clear character based motivations for the things they do. Even when the things they do are self destructive.

He doesn't, when he shows back up with the pills he's stopped acting out of any character based motivations and just does stuff because the plot requires complications about now.

[Tsyroc]

A couple of things that I wasn't expecting that were kind of cool.

Sneaking "Nuke" in there. At least I'm guessing that Simpson is essentially that character from Daredevil. The colored pills, the paranoia and psychosis certainly fit.

I dunno, I think he was the weak link in the show. Everyone else has clear character based motivations for the things they do. Even when the things they do are self destructive.

He doesn't, when he shows back up with the pills he's stopped acting out of any character based motivations and just does stuff because the plot requires complications about now.

I pretty much agree. I thought his appearance was kind of cool just because I wasn't expecting it and he's definitely from the Daredevil books, but after that he's mostly annoying. Maybe if he hadn't jumped into psycho seek and destroy mode so quickly. I did like his fight with Jessica and then Trish. Trish mostly because it fit with how she had been in the comics but in a reworked fashion. It may contribute to setting her up as an actual costume hero later on.

I kind of liked his relationship with Trish before he started getting super obsessed with locating and taking out Killgrave. I tend to think that Killgrave messing with his head reacted strongly to whatever long term effects the combat enhancers had on his brain because he was super focused and sort of psycho even before he started taking the drugs again.

I would have been fine with them planting the seed for the character and then letting him carry over to Daredevil instead of using him as much as they did.

It also looks like they will be adding even more "we were trying to make the next super soldier" characters. They've already got the Hulk, Blonsky, The Winter Soldier, Cage, "Nuke", Deathlock, and maybe whatever happened to Jessica, even if that was accidental.

[trekky0623]

Anyone else getting a "Veronica Mars" feeling, or more generally a kind of film noir old detective film type of theme?

[bilateralrope]

Spoiler

Kilgrave's storyline lost its oomph, as the biggest action was taking over a hospital due to his ever increasing powers. He goes from that, to trying to run away on a yacht. Kilgrave could have taken over the mayor's office, the NYPD, the National Guard, made an army of hobos, etc. Instead, he takes a few token cops and hostages.

Attracting that much attention would be a rather stupid move for Killgrave.

[The Romulan Republic]

This sounds interesting, albeit more on the grim dark side than I generally care for. If this keeps up, I might have to actually start using Netflix.

But then, I'd probably watch it for David Tenant alone.

[The Romulan Republic]

Spoiler

Kilgrave's storyline lost its oomph, as the biggest action was taking over a hospital due to his ever increasing powers. He goes from that, to trying to run away on a yacht. Kilgrave could have taken over the mayor's office, the NYPD, the National Guard, made an army of hobos, etc. Instead, he takes a few token cops and hostages.

Attracting that much attention would be a rather stupid move for Killgrave.

I haven't seen the show, but I guess it depends on how subtly he can manipulate things, weather he can avoid his takeover being noticed. I mean, this is Marvel, a setting where Hydra managed to infiltrate and control large sections of the government and intelligence community. But the bigger it gets, the more attention it could draw.

But something as overt as an army of hobos, or any sort of overt military action? Considering this is the Marvel universe, that's just asking to get SHIELD or even the Avengers on his ass.

Another thing- Just going off the trailer, Jessica really gives me a Faith (from Buffy the Vampire Slayer) vibe. Right down to aspects of her appearance. Is that just the trailer, or just in my head, or an accurate comparison?

[Gaidin]

Well, HYDRA did it subtly over a period of decades. Does Kilgrave strike you as a...uhh...long term planner?

[The Romulan Republic]

I can't say. Like I said, haven't watched the show. So I'm just going off what others say, the trailers, and my knowledge of Marvel in general.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Another thing- Just going off the trailer, Jessica really gives me a Faith (from Buffy the Vampire Slayer) vibe. Right down to aspects of her appearance. Is that just the trailer, or just in my head, or an accurate comparison?

Nah. With hair, makeup, and clothes, there's maybe a passing resemblance between Krysten Ritter and Eliza Dushku in a "bad girl" sort of way, but Jessica's damage is a lot different. Jessica is essentially a good person who's turned to leather jackets and alcohol to deal with her issues, whereas Faith had to learn to be a good person. Faith abused her powers with no thought for the consequences; Jessica abandoned her powers because of the (perceived) consequences. They're very different people.

The Veronica Mars comparison is a little more apt, particularly considering Ritter was in that show too.

Edit - In fact, I think Jessica and Veronica have a lot of similarities... Jessica essentially being an older Veronica but with a lot more psychological and emotional trauma, and thus a "dark mirror" of how Veronica might have turned out if Keith Mars had died horribly right in front of her and then someone came along and mind controlled her for awhile.

[Crazedwraith]

Not seen it ey, but will when I have time. The main actress looked so familiar though it wasn't until a colleague said she was from 'The Bitch from upstairs' that I realised I'd see her in Breaking Bad.

[FaxModem1]

Spoiler

Kilgrave's storyline lost its oomph, as the biggest action was taking over a hospital due to his ever increasing powers. He goes from that, to trying to run away on a yacht. Kilgrave could have taken over the mayor's office, the NYPD, the National Guard, made an army of hobos, etc. Instead, he takes a few token cops and hostages.

Attracting that much attention would be a rather stupid move for Killgrave.

Kilgrave was improving his range and duration, so attracting attention was clearly not really an issue for him. Especially when makes sure to have those responsible wipe the hard drives of any surveillance footage.

[streetad]

Kilgrave doesn't seem like the 'take over the world, massive evil plan' type. He's more of a mundane, everyday sort of villainous sociopath who just happens to have an incredibly dangerous superpower. He only raised the stakes by trying to amplify his powers when the net was closing around him as an attempt to save his own neck.

If he got on the radar of SHIELD or the Avengers I'm sure they would have contingencies for dealing with his ilk, but he's really more of a threat to individuals unlucky enough to cross his path rather than to national or global security.

[bilateralrope]

Spoiler

Kilgrave's storyline lost its oomph, as the biggest action was taking over a hospital due to his ever increasing powers. He goes from that, to trying to run away on a yacht. Kilgrave could have taken over the mayor's office, the NYPD, the National Guard, made an army of hobos, etc. Instead, he takes a few token cops and hostages.

Attracting that much attention would be a rather stupid move for Killgrave.

Kilgrave was improving his range and duration, so attracting attention was clearly not really an issue for him. Especially when makes sure to have those responsible wipe the hard drives of any surveillance footage.

Yet he was still planning to leave New York shortly after drawing attention through taking over the hospital and then the police that shot at Jessica. His plan was probably to leave before anyone figured out that mind control was happening so that he was elsewhere when they responded. Mind control does help him keep a very low profile in whatever city he turns up in.

Remember that the only thing special he has is his mind control. If someone tries to gun him down on the street and he doesn't notice before they shoot, he's dead (unless it's a tranq dart). If there is a sniper sitting outside his range and/or unable to hear him, all he can do is deny the sniper a clear shot. If someone orders a drone strike on him, his only defence is if he's elsewhere when it arrives.

[FaxModem1]

Yet he was still planning to leave New York shortly after drawing attention through taking over the hospital and then the police that shot at Jessica. His plan was probably to leave before anyone figured out that mind control was happening so that he was elsewhere when they responded. Mind control does help him keep a very low profile in whatever city he turns up in.

Remember that the only thing special he has is his mind control. If someone tries to gun him down on the street and he doesn't notice before they shoot, he's dead (unless it's a tranq dart). If there is a sniper sitting outside his range and/or unable to hear him, all he can do is deny the sniper a clear shot. If someone orders a drone strike on him, his only defence is if he's elsewhere when it arrives.

Yes, but that's why there was the whole plot sequence of him expanding his influence, making it a larger range and larger duration. Admittedly for the purpose of doing it to Jessica Jones, but it seemed to be building it up to something larger than that.

Instead, we have the plothole of why no one who does know him has ever tried just wearing headphones when they can. Their initial attempt to capture him should have included them, for instance.

It all leads to a rather unsatisfying anti-climax of Jones just twisting his neck.

[Tsyroc]

Anyone else getting a "Veronica Mars" feeling, or more generally a kind of film noir old detective film type of theme?

Definitely a film noir feel, especially in the first episode and because of the music.

Well, the music also reminded me of those Salman King softcore porn movies that used to show on Skinemax a lot.

[Vendetta]

Yet he was still planning to leave New York shortly after drawing attention through taking over the hospital and then the police that shot at Jessica. His plan was probably to leave before anyone figured out that mind control was happening so that he was elsewhere when they responded. Mind control does help him keep a very low profile in whatever city he turns up in.

Remember that the only thing special he has is his mind control. If someone tries to gun him down on the street and he doesn't notice before they shoot, he's dead (unless it's a tranq dart). If there is a sniper sitting outside his range and/or unable to hear him, all he can do is deny the sniper a clear shot. If someone orders a drone strike on him, his only defence is if he's elsewhere when it arrives.

Yes, but that's why there was the whole plot sequence of him expanding his influence, making it a larger range and larger duration. Admittedly for the purpose of doing it to Jessica Jones, but it seemed to be building it up to something larger than that.

Instead, we have the plothole of why no one who does know him has ever tried just wearing headphones when they can. Their initial attempt to capture him should have included them, for instance.

It all leads to a rather unsatisfying anti-climax of Jones just twisting his neck.

I think you've missed the point of the character of Kilgrave.

He's a deeply petty man with essentially no ambition beyond satisfying his immediate whims and an overwhelming obsession with Jessica because she once stopped him getting what he wanted.

He only wanted to control Jessica, or to hurt her for what he percieved she did to him. Nothing else mattered to him at all. Improving his powers was only relevant because he wanted them to work on Jessica again, everything else was a side effect.

Also headphones/loud music aren't a good defence, because all he has to do is repeat himself during a slightly quieter part, or for you to understand him from reading his lips (which is also why Trish is wearing a hood and looking at her feet), and it's blown. That was only ever expected to be a very temporary distraction.

[streetad]

Well exactly. Which is presumably why he's never appeared on the radar of the likes of SHIELD or the Avengers. Someone like Steve Rogers or Coulson would probably care enough about people to take him down on principle but I doubt he'd be high on the priority list for the likes of Nick Fury.

He's an irredeemable abusive rapist but one of very limited ambition - a good antagonist for a street-level protagonist like Jessica and someone who really needs to be stopped, but not the type to use his powers to make himself President or something.

[bilateralrope]

It all leads to a rather unsatisfying anti-climax of Jones just twisting his neck.

I found the tension around if she was really under his control lead up nicely to a climax of her revealing that she wasn't. The neck breaking was only part of it.

How would you have preferred to see Killgrave's story end ?

[FaxModem1]

It all leads to a rather unsatisfying anti-climax of Jones just twisting his neck.

I found the tension around if she was really under his control lead up nicely to a climax of her revealing that she wasn't. The neck breaking was only part of it.

How would you have preferred to see Killgrave's story end ?

Really? I could tell she wasn't under his control the entire time. As soon as she mickeyed his Chinese food, it was a battle to the death.

Honestly? One of two ways, one, have Jones use Kilgrave to make the world a better place, with a self-admitted monster being used and restrained by Jessica to make wrongs right, though that would require Jessica to actually be heroic again.

Or two, Jessica tries this approach, and tells Kilgrave that he's utterly petty in his approach. Kilgrave simply goes, "Nah, that sounds like too much work, but you're right, I could be more ambitious." Cue Kilgrave working towards being King of New York, with Jessica having to work harder to stop him than a cat and mouse game that lasts 5 episodes.

Because after Jessica's home, and the cage, it's nothing but a cat and mouse game for the rest of the series, and to make up for that, they have other characters become villains so that they can pad it out, which was rather unsatisfying.

[Vendetta]

None of those outcomes are natural progressions of Kilgrave as a character though. And so they aren't dramatically satisfying, because satisfying drama proceeds from characters. There is no way that Kilgrave as a character would embark on that path. Even when Jessica makes him do something "good" it's only because someone validates his petty narcissism that he connects with it in any way.

The story is about personal relationships (specifically abusive relationships based on control, not just Kilgrave but also Trish and her mother and Hogarth and her wife), spiralling it out into megalomaniac supervillain bullshit in complete contradiction to how the characters otherwise work would have ruined it.


Even when Simpson is in crazy drug man mode he's still sort of acting out of the same character place that led to his little story of setting his sister's dollhouse on fire so his GI Joes could "save the day", creating a crisis to allow him to seem like the hero when he resolves it. (Still no good character based reason for him to shoot that detective though) (Ironically, what you think the series should have done narratively is something the series already specifically calls out as a destructive personality trait).

[Iroscato]

Kilgrave has some fairly good regenerative abilities in the comics, right? In the series he seemed perfectly healthy a year after taking a face full of bus and getting a new pair of kidneys, apparently without the need for anti-rejection drugs.
He was also stabbed by his mother and seemed fine a few days(?) later. I wonder if he's as dead as he seems...though to be fair, that was one very broken neck he received courtesy of Miss Jones.

[Solauren]

if Kilgrave is not dead, he'll stay the hell away from Jessica now. She's shown his augmented powers have no effect on her, and she's willing to kill him. Next time, she might rip his head off (which he knows she can do)

I can see him show up somewhere ELSE,but not in anything involving New York.

[The Romulan Republic]

Seems a pity to write out David Tenant that quickly.