WWII in the world of Avatar

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gigabytelord
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WWII in the world of Avatar

Post by gigabytelord »

Well I'm not going to clutter things up with a bunch of rules and story like I normally do so here goes.

The settings are real Earth Cir. June 28 1941 and Avatar Earth just ten day before the Equalist coup in Republic City.

Six Hell's Gate style dimensional gates open joining the two worlds.

The first gate opens connecting an location 50 miles directly to the east of Minsk with an location 50 miles directly south of Republic City.

Gate two opens connecting a location 50 miles north of Berlin to a location 50 miles west of the outer most wall of Ba Sing Se.

Gate three opens connecting a location 50 miles off the most southern coast of the Fire Nation to a location roughly centered in the middle of the Sea of Japan.

Gate four opens connecting a location roughly centered between the island of Great Britain and Ireland to a location 50 miles north of the southern Air Temple.

Gate five opens connecting a location 100 miles north of Ba Sing Se to a location 50 miles west of St Louis

(Hidden Gate) Gate Six connects the south poles of both worlds.

All gates are 15 -20 miles wide and 10 miles high. Bending works on real earth.

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Re: WWII in the world of Avatar

Post by Ahriman238 »

Well, both sides of our WWII will have tremendous use for a portal backdoor into the enemy's heart, but traveling through Avatarverse could be hazardous between the benders and the odd random spirit. Plus they have equivalent technology, sans guns but supernatural powers. The Equalist coup most likely still goes down, they were so far into planning and Amon would likely see the portal distraction as an opportunity, while no one on our side will be organized enough to stop it. The aftermath could go down very differently depending how things work out.

The Fire Nation are pretty Japanese, but aren't really interested in imperialist expansion, so I'd expect some immediate IJ/FN hostility.
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Re: WWII in the world of Avatar

Post by Simon_Jester »

Japan may well try to colonize and conquer the Fire Nation (or other parts of the Avatarverse) as an alternative to the Southern Strategy. ESPECIALLY if they can find petroleum there- and if technology is at a 1930s or so level in the Avatar world, then they probably know where at least some of their own oil deposits are. Besides, I know Satomobiles run on internal combustion engines and that wouldn't be possible if they didn't.

If there is oil in the Fire Nation, the Japanese will covet it. And they may well decide that dealing with firebenders is less of a pain in the ass than dealing with the British and Americans. Especially since the Japanese Army has slightly more leverage over Japan's politics than the Navy, and is more enthusiastic about war (the IJA was about as close to a Khornate cult as you get in a large real world organization)... And the conquest of the Fire Nation would be mostly the Army's show.

This was before the US oil embargo, so the Japanese can afford to take their time. And pushing into an unexploited territory that lacks large standing armies with rifle-armed guerillas and Great Powers with aircraft carriers... It's much less risky for them and their supply lines are unattackable.

There will at least be some rousing policy debates over the issue in Tokyo.
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Minsk is right about near the line of advance of the German army as of June 28, give or take a bit. Depending on the exact events of Operation Barbarossa, which I do not know in sufficient detail and am a bit too messed up from my recent dental surgery to fully research, the Minsk portal is probably going to turn into a place that a lot of very scared Russians flee through, and/or a place that a lot of Germans try to figure out what to do with because it's pretty much directly in the path of their invasion. They will probably park rear area garrison troops around it and bypass it, since they have a war to fight. One interestingly confusing outcome occurs if the portal happens to lie across a major rail line, because given how Hell's Gate portals work that would severely disrupt German operations deeper into that part of Russia. It wouldn't block them but it would disrupt them as effectively as if several miles of the railroad had just literally vanished into thin air. Maybe more effectively.
______________________

The politically unstable Earth Kingdom is ripe for Nazi conquest and is very conveniently located to the Berlin portal, although they may have to lay a railroad spur to get heavy supplies into the portal. Or through the portal. Actually lack of rail transport may prove a major handicap, especially since there is likely to be gauge incompatibility between the German and Earth Kingdom rail networks. Also because having (earth/metal)bender powers to sabotage a rail line would be enough to make any WWII guerilla go 'squeeeeee' inside. Thus, the Germans may settle for conquering a small enclave around the portal and staying there, especially since they are very very very busy with Russia right about then.

Except... see below.
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I doubt that the gate in the Irish Sea will have much direct effect on anything except for interfering with British coastal shipping to some minor degree- it partly depends on whether the portal is oriented north-south or east-west.
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The South Pole portal has no consequences from the Earth point of view because nobody lives at or near our South Pole and I don't think anyone's even going to be visiting it until after the war is over- can't remember any Antarctic expeditions being funded at that time.

The southern Waterbenders live near the South Pole as I recall, and waterbending may make them comfy enough with living in the Antarctic that they can explore our side of the portal... but I don't know if they'd show any interest in poking their noses through the portal, because there's no there there on the other side- nothing except another huge expanse of ice and snow, for many days' walk in every direction until you hit a coastline whose sole endearing characteristic is the adorable penguins, which is in turn thousands of kilometers by sea from civilization.
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The gate in St. Louis is a major joker in the deck because, and this is important, it is less than 120 air miles from the Berlin portal.

That's the one that's going to have interesting results because it creates a very short land connection between the US and Germany. Both sides will therefore be in a hurry to fortify their respective portal entrances (preferably with defense in depth on both sides). Even though Germany and the US are not at war, this makes it possible for either side to invade the other more or less at will, although (as mentioned earlier) that will require laying railroads through the Earth Kingdom's territory or making use of their railroads.

Aircraft will be able to fly from St. Louis to Berlin more or less at will, likewise, and the distance involved (say, 20-30 miles from an airport somewhere in eastern Kansas, 120 miles by air, and 50 miles to Berlin) means that basically any US aircraft can do this- the converse is true for the Germans, although notably for military purposes, St. Louis is much less important to the Americans than Berlin is to Germany.

As noted, portals can cause disruption to sea and rail travel, especially if they're ten miles high and twenty miles across. This may be an issue since some major US rail lines run east-west through St. Louis. It's less of a problem for the Germans because losing rail access to points [/i]north[/i] of Berlin doesn't hurt them very much, and it's not a problem for the Russians at all because the Germans were about to conquer the area around their portal anyway.
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Re: WWII in the world of Avatar

Post by gigabytelord »

Simon_Jester wrote:Japan may well try to colonize and conquer the Fire Nation (or other parts of the Avatarverse) as an alternative to the Southern Strategy. ESPECIALLY if they can find petroleum there- and if technology is at a 1930s or so level in the Avatar world, then they probably know where at least some of their own oil deposits are. Besides, I know Satomobiles run on internal combustion engines and that wouldn't be possible if they didn't.

If there is oil in the Fire Nation, the Japanese will covet it. And they may well decide that dealing with firebenders is less of a pain in the ass than dealing with the British and Americans. Especially since the Japanese Army has slightly more leverage over Japan's politics than the Navy, and is more enthusiastic about war (the IJA was about as close to a Khornate cult as you get in a large real world organization)... And the conquest of the Fire Nation would be mostly the Army's show.

This was before the US oil embargo, so the Japanese can afford to take their time. And pushing into an unexploited territory that lacks large standing armies with rifle-armed guerillas and Great Powers with aircraft carriers... It's much less risky for them and their supply lines are unattackable.

There will at least be some rousing policy debates over the issue in Tokyo.
Bingo and lets not forget that the Imperial Japanese Navy is not only fully modern but at this time is the largest in the Pacific and fields the most powerful big gun battleships ever built.
I don't think the Fire Nation Navy has anything to answer the big guns of modern WWII era battleships. Nor do they have truly modern aircraft save for dirigibles. I'm pretty sure the FNN would be unceremoniously slaughtered in the open sea. I'm not sure what would happen on land.
Simon_Jester wrote: Minsk is right about near the line of advance of the German army as of June 28, give or take a bit. Depending on the exact events of Operation Barbarossa, which I do not know in sufficient detail and am a bit too messed up from my recent dental surgery to fully research, the Minsk portal is probably going to turn into a place that a lot of very scared Russians flee through, and/or a place that a lot of Germans try to figure out what to do with because it's pretty much directly in the path of their invasion. They will probably park rear area garrison troops around it and bypass it, since they have a war to fight. One interestingly confusing outcome occurs if the portal happens to lie across a major rail line, because given how Hell's Gate portals work that would severely disrupt German operations deeper into that part of Russia. It wouldn't block them but it would disrupt them as effectively as if several miles of the railroad had just literally vanished into thin air. Maybe more effectively.
How would Republic City react to hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of refugees and retreating Russian soldiers swarming through the gate? How would this effect Amon's plans?
Simon_Jester wrote:The politically unstable Earth Kingdom is ripe for Nazi conquest and is very conveniently located to the Berlin portal, although they may have to lay a railroad spur to get heavy supplies into the portal. Or through the portal. Actually lack of rail transport may prove a major handicap, especially since there is likely to be gauge incompatibility between the German and Earth Kingdom rail networks. Also because having (earth/metal)bender powers to sabotage a rail line would be enough to make any WWII guerilla go 'squeeeeee' inside. Thus, the Germans may settle for conquering a small enclave around the portal and staying there, especially since they are very very very busy with Russia right about then.
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The gate in St. Louis is a major joker in the deck because, and this is important, it is less than 120 air miles from the Berlin portal.

That's the one that's going to have interesting results because it creates a very short land connection between the US and Germany. Both sides will therefore be in a hurry to fortify their respective portal entrances (preferably with defense in depth on both sides). Even though Germany and the US are not at war, this makes it possible for either side to invade the other more or less at will, although (as mentioned earlier) that will require laying railroads through the Earth Kingdom's territory or making use of their railroads.

Aircraft will be able to fly from St. Louis to Berlin more or less at will, likewise, and the distance involved (say, 20-30 miles from an airport somewhere in eastern Kansas, 120 miles by air, and 50 miles to Berlin) means that basically any US aircraft can do this- the converse is true for the Germans, although notably for military purposes, St. Louis is much less important to the Americans than Berlin is to Germany.

As noted, portals can cause disruption to sea and rail travel, especially if they're ten miles high and twenty miles across. This may be an issue since some major US rail lines run east-west through St. Louis. It's less of a problem for the Germans because losing rail access to points [/i]north[/i] of Berlin doesn't hurt them very much, and it's not a problem for the Russians at all because the Germans were about to conquer the area around their portal anyway.
Don't forget that Ba Sing Se lies almost directly between the two gates. Ba Sing Se is the largest population center in the Avatar world and the city itself is huge.
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I've read a couple of estimates that place it's population at anywhere between 5 and 10 million and those might be underestimates.
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Re: WWII in the world of Avatar

Post by Simon_Jester »

gigabytelord wrote:
This was before the US oil embargo, so the Japanese can afford to take their time. And pushing into an unexploited territory that lacks large standing armies with rifle-armed guerillas and Great Powers with aircraft carriers... It's much less risky for them and their supply lines are unattackable.

There will at least be some rousing policy debates over the issue in Tokyo.
Bingo and lets not forget that the Imperial Japanese Navy is not only fully modern but at this time is the largest in the Pacific and fields the most powerful big gun battleships ever built.

I don't think the Fire Nation Navy has anything to answer the big guns of modern WWII era battleships. Nor do they have truly modern aircraft save for dirigibles. I'm pretty sure the FNN would be unceremoniously slaughtered in the open sea. I'm not sure what would happen on land.
We should try to resolve the on-land issue because we are far more likely to see heavy combat between WWII ground troops and (earth or fire)benders than we are to see much naval combat. Naval combat between the IJN and the Fire Nation is at least possible, but aside from that all portals likely to trigger fighting are on land.

I can't find any easily accessible information about the Fire Nation military in the Korra era, and I have watched only a very little of the show itself.

What information I can find on warships of the Korra era indicates that the main armament of their 'battleships' is Firebending-powered beam weapons in small turrets. For a number of reasons this would be hopeless against capital ships of the WWII era, among them that direct fire energy weapons on the deck of a battleship lack the range to engage effectively because they're going to be hit by ballistic shells coming in from over the curve of the Earth. They might be able to see and target the superstructure of IJN ships (assuming the firebending beams are still powerful and can burn through steel ten miles away or more), but they would not be able to hit the hull or the gun turrets.

So unless those firebending cannon are extremely powerful and can simply melt and destroy the upper works of a capital ship in a matter of minutes, the odds are that this type of warship will be unable to withstand naval attack by any WWII ship with guns capable of penetrating its armor belt.

While we're at it, the firebending cannon are apparently not very effective against air attack, given that relatively slow biplanes were able to largely evade their attempts at AA fire during the Equalist revolt. WWII aircraft are likely to have higher performance and thus be harder to hit. Other 'bending-based defenses will run into similar problems.

One interesting question is the battleships' vulnerability or lack thereof to torpedoes- waterbenders might, or might not, be able to create an effective 'shield' that would detonate torpedoes away from the hull. However, they failed to do so in combat against the Equalists, so at the very least it would take time and practice to mount such a defense properly. Besides, it is unclear whether the Fire Nation specifically would be able to protect its ships in this way.

At least we know torpedoes exist in the Avatar 'verse, so it is possible that the setting's naval engineers have designed their ships to resist torpedo attack... although ships were designed that way in real life too, and it didn't stop torpedoes from being a massive threat.

In any case, to summarize, yes, I would expect Avatar 'verse warships of the Korra era to not be very effective when fighting against their WWII counterparts in real life. As to the performance of the Fire Nation military in particular, I cannot say, because all the information I have on them dates back to a period roughly seventy years earlier. The Fire Nation of that time might have handled itself reasonably well against the military of 1870-era Japan, or for that matter most other 1870-era nations.

But we really should settle the question of what will happen on land.
Simon_Jester wrote:How would Republic City react to hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of refugees and retreating Russian soldiers swarming through the gate? How would this effect Amon's plans?
I have no idea but I expect it to be interesting. Note that the retreating Russian soldiers, at least, would be armed. Also note that there is a good chance the Germans will chase them, and possibly demand that the Russian soldiers be interned and handed over, because that is the norm for soldiers retreating into a neutral country on Earth.

On the other hand, the Russian soldiers are numerous and armed, and it is unclear to me whether the Republic's military (or the Equalists) will be capable of controlling them.

Amon may well regard the Russian soldiers as allies. He will certainly covet their rifles. But he is unlikely to be able to secure their loyalty quickly, if nothing else because I assume there are language barriers to be overcome.
Simon_Jester wrote:The politically unstable Earth Kingdom is ripe for Nazi conquest and is very conveniently located to the Berlin portal, although they may have to lay a railroad spur to get heavy supplies into the portal. Or through the portal. Actually lack of rail transport may prove a major handicap, especially since there is likely to be gauge incompatibility between the German and Earth Kingdom rail networks. Also because having (earth/metal)bender powers to sabotage a rail line would be enough to make any WWII guerilla go 'squeeeeee' inside. Thus, the Germans may settle for conquering a small enclave around the portal and staying there, especially since they are very very very busy with Russia right about then.
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The gate in St. Louis is a major joker in the deck because, and this is important, it is less than 120 air miles from the Berlin portal.

That's the one that's going to have interesting results because it creates a very short land connection between the US and Germany. Both sides will therefore be in a hurry to fortify their respective portal entrances (preferably with defense in depth on both sides). Even though Germany and the US are not at war, this makes it possible for either side to invade the other more or less at will, although (as mentioned earlier) that will require laying railroads through the Earth Kingdom's territory or making use of their railroads.

Aircraft will be able to fly from St. Louis to Berlin more or less at will, likewise, and the distance involved (say, 20-30 miles from an airport somewhere in eastern Kansas, 120 miles by air, and 50 miles to Berlin) means that basically any US aircraft can do this- the converse is true for the Germans, although notably for military purposes, St. Louis is much less important to the Americans than Berlin is to Germany.

As noted, portals can cause disruption to sea and rail travel, especially if they're ten miles high and twenty miles across. This may be an issue since some major US rail lines run east-west through St. Louis. It's less of a problem for the Germans because losing rail access to points [/i]north[/i] of Berlin doesn't hurt them very much, and it's not a problem for the Russians at all because the Germans were about to conquer the area around their portal anyway.
Don't forget that Ba Sing Se lies almost directly between the two gates. Ba Sing Se is the largest population center in the Avatar world and the city itself is huge...

I've read a couple of estimates that place it's population at anywhere between 5 and 10 million and those might be underestimates.
Hm. With 1930-40 era technology?

Okay, in that case, the suburbs of the city may actually reach fifty miles from the city itself, so much of that 120 miles of land between the two portals is semi-built-up terrain. However, it also means that there is an extremely well developed rail infrastructure, possibly including rail lines that already run much of the distance between the two portals- without such rail infrastructure it would be literally impossible to feed the population of Ba Sing Se in the first place.

This would be largely irrelevant for air purposes- a B-17 flown from Kansas will be able to fly over Ba Sing Se at altitudes where the Earth Kingdom literally cannot do anything meaningful about it and may not even be able to detect it, and drop bombs on Berlin in relatively short order. The converse is also true.

The Germans will presumably make mounting radar stations near the portal a very high priority, as will the Americans, so they can get at least SOME advanced warning of prospective air attacks. I suspect radar will work through the portal. Likewise, the terrain within a few miles of the portals on either side on Earth is likely to end up being among the most concentrated flak belts in history, because all air attacks from Germany to America HAVE to fly through a strip only about twenty miles wide, and all the most effective attacks from America to Germany will do likewise.

Note that, again, the existence of the portal is a much bigger problem for the Germans than for the Americans in terms of air warfare, because Berlin is a lot more important to Germany than St. Louis is to America.

The presence of a densely populated area with large numbers of Earthbenders will certainly present an interesting obstacle to ground operations, particularly to any German invasions of America given that the Germans are probably more likely to antagonize the locals.
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Re: WWII in the world of Avatar

Post by gigabytelord »

We should try to resolve the on-land issue because we are far more likely to see heavy combat between WWII ground troops and (earth or fire)benders than we are to see much naval combat. Naval combat between the IJN and the Fire Nation is at least possible, but aside from that all portals likely to trigger fighting are on land.

I can't find any easily accessible information about the Fire Nation military in the Korra era, and I have watched only a very little of the show itself.
I agree neither can I find much in the way of Fire Nation technical abilities. I'm thinking the creators may have stayed away from the Fire Nation's tech this time around and focused on the other nations a bit more.

However from watching the show Mecha tech seems to have proliferated quite a bit but it certainly has a fare number of limitations.
In any case, to summarize, yes, I would expect Avatar 'verse warships of the Korra era to not be very effective when fighting against their WWII counterparts in real life. As to the performance of the Fire Nation military in particular, I cannot say, because all the information I have on them dates back to a period roughly seventy years earlier. The Fire Nation of that time might have handled itself reasonably well against the military of 1870-era Japan, or for that matter most other 1870-era nations.
I agree but we've also seen just how fast the fire nation can put stolen technology to use. Remember the Fire Nation air ships from the last Air Bender? Yeah that tech was stolen, reverse engineered, and then put into mass production in less than a year.
Sure Zuko's evil father was firelord a the time but I'm thinking the industrial capabilities to repeat such a thing are still there. But much like the eastern front the question is, assuming the Empire of Japan goes for all out conquest, how long will the Fire Nation be able to hold back the tide. Adding to this the Japanese of the time were far more brutal conquerors than we've ever seen the Fire Nation be portrayed.

Also don't underestimate the usefulness of big gun battleships in a ground campaign. Especially seeing as the Fire Nation consist of a group of islands. It'd be a repeat of the island hopping campaign that the US would later use in this very conflict.
I have no idea but I expect it to be interesting. Note that the retreating Russian soldiers, at least, would be armed. Also note that there is a good chance the Germans will chase them, and possibly demand that the Russian soldiers be interned and handed over, because that is the norm for soldiers retreating into a neutral country on Earth.

On the other hand, the Russian soldiers are numerous and armed, and it is unclear to me whether the Republic's military (or the Equalists) will be capable of controlling them.

Amon may well regard the Russian soldiers as allies. He will certainly covet their rifles. But he is unlikely to be able to secure their loyalty quickly, if nothing else because I assume there are language barriers to be overcome.
There is always the possibilty that The United Republic of Nations may well offer them protection. If that happens Germany is almost certain to react violently.

Then there's Kuvira... Power hungry Kuvira and her designs to conquer the United Republic and all it's lands and replace them with an ultra nationalist "Earth Empire". *Shivers*
I'm wondering if this event may cause the earth nation civil war to get kicked off early which will push her plans ahead by a long way unless I'm getting my avatar dates mixed up.

Another note she's unlikely to have developed the spirit cannon by this point which is a good thing.
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Re: WWII in the world of Avatar

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Kuvira wouldn't even have that in mind yet, she's still just the security captain at Zaofu.
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Re: WWII in the world of Avatar

Post by Simon_Jester »

gigabytelord wrote:I agree neither can I find much in the way of Fire Nation technical abilities. I'm thinking the creators may have stayed away from the Fire Nation's tech this time around and focused on the other nations a bit more.

However from watching the show Mecha tech seems to have proliferated quite a bit but it certainly has a fare number of limitations.
The biggest one is that without long range artillery, mecha as a tank-substitute isn't very helpful. It's just a big target. Armored fighting vehicles of any kind if they have weapons capable of blasting infantry out of bunkers or killing enemy tanks are useful. If they lack such weapons, it just means they stomp around being immune to small arms fire, causing a few casualties before someone finds a weapon big enough to stop them.
In any case, to summarize, yes, I would expect Avatar 'verse warships of the Korra era to not be very effective when fighting against their WWII counterparts in real life. As to the performance of the Fire Nation military in particular, I cannot say, because all the information I have on them dates back to a period roughly seventy years earlier. The Fire Nation of that time might have handled itself reasonably well against the military of 1870-era Japan, or for that matter most other 1870-era nations.
I agree but we've also seen just how fast the fire nation can put stolen technology to use. Remember the Fire Nation air ships from the last Air Bender? Yeah that tech was stolen, reverse engineered, and then put into mass production in less than a year.
How different was it from what the Fire Nation previously possessed.
Also don't underestimate the usefulness of big gun battleships in a ground campaign. Especially seeing as the Fire Nation consist of a group of islands. It'd be a repeat of the island hopping campaign that the US would later use in this very conflict.
See, this is the kind of thing I overlook due to not being a major fan of the series.
I'm wondering if this event may cause the earth nation civil war to get kicked off early which will push her plans ahead by a long way unless I'm getting my avatar dates mixed up.
Having the US and the Germans clash somewhere in the vicinity of Ba Sing Se might do the trick- and it is almost certain that they will.
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Re: WWII in the world of Avatar

Post by gigabytelord »

Here's a timeline update that I posted on another forum where I posed this same hypothetical question (again to repeat what I said in the OP, while conflict is bound to happen at some point that is not the point. I suppose this more of a RAR than a vs. that I'll update as time goes on). However instead of debating technologies, economics, cultures, ideologies and using logical progression to inform their opinions the whole damn thing, save for a couple of examples, turned into ten pages of unabashed uber wanking and min-maxing where neither side is willing to acknowledge their weaknesses and are all to quick to point out their opponent's while at the same time glorifying their strengths.

This has left a very bad taste in my mouth with regards to the site in question but that's neither here nor any long there so we shall move on.

WWII in the world of Avatar part 2

The date is now July 28th 1941.

Japan:

Upon discovery of the gate off the western Japanese coast the Japanese Imperial Navy is placed on high alert and sent to secure the waters around the anomaly. Over the course of the next month several scout destroyers and a sub are sent through. They report a large group of islands that are inhabited but fail to make contact directly. They also spot what are clearly coal or oil powered warships anchored off the southern coast of what appears to be the largest island.
UPDATE: On July 27th a flotilla of warships, presumably the same that was recorded before, is discovered sailing directly toward the gate, the sub mentioned before is shadowing their current course.

Despite the recent occurrence the Japanese military has decided not to postpone any of it's planned military actions save for the attack on the United State's Pacific holdings.

USA/Germany:

Upon the discovery of the gate, much to the chagrin of a large freight train and several small motor vehicles that happen to be traveling along a rail-line and several small roads that cross the area that the gate opened across, both the Missouri and Illinois National Guards are called up and sent to secure the area around the gate. After a week of paranoiac confusion the army air force sends through 20 scout plans to map the region on the other side of the gate.
Before the planes can return however a group of soldiers, surprisingly made up of both both men and women, passes through the gate to our side.
It is quickly discovered that they speak English and that they were just as surprised at the emergence of the gate as our selves and that they have taken much the same course of action.
2 days ago they were approached by members of a nation call the 'German Reich' through an identical gate that formed a little over 200 miles to the south west of this one (from their perspective); it was at that point that they formed a expeditionary team of their own and sent them through this gate.

On July 19th, after a hastily assembled diplomatic corp was brought to the gate. The Secretary of State of the United States, Cordell Hull, was brought to the royal palace of Ba Sing Se. He arrived just as the President of the Reichstag, Hermann Goring, was being taken on a tour of the palace grounds.

NOTE: It has become clear that the military leaders of this "Earth kingdom" have taken rather the liking to the Nazi representatives, they seem to be enraptured at the story of a militarily defeated people rising from the ashes of defeat and retaking what they believe is rightfully theirs this story is no doubt much exaggerated. However, thankfully, the Queen seems to favor Mr. Hull.
I should add that a great many persons here seem to be able to perform feats of elemental magic. I'm unsure if this is some sort of complex trick or genuine. If it is the capability seems to vary from individual to individual if this is the case perhaps some are capable of even more astounding feats, this would certainly help explain the almost monolithic feats of engineering we've seen here.

AREAS OF INTEREST: The people here are very interested our weapons as they seem to lack guns of any kind. They seem to be of a relatively similar technological level in some areas, less advanced in others and more advanced in still more. Suggest immediate economic engagement as the possibilities are literally endless.

IMPERATIVES: Mr. Goring has thus far not been present at any meetings or tours that Mr. Hull has attended and apparently as gone so far as to ask that he be provided with a housing in a villa on the other side of the palace. This has caused understandable unease amongst the palace guard. Mr. Hull request orders from the President on regards to any future meetings between us.

Russia:

As of July 28th more than six hundred thousand Russian soldiers and civilians have fled through the portal. Contact was officially made with Republic city on the 5th July. Apparently there has been a great deal of civil strife in the city and surrounding areas over the last few weeks and the sudden appearance of so many people has caused a great deal of confusion in the city, the lack of linguistic compatibility as only added to this, thankfully several English speakers on the Russian side have stepped forward to offer their services in facilitating dialog.
With the Real Earth side now under the control of German forces the only communication in and out has been with brave pilots flying in under cover of night through the portal and back again. Thankfully the Germans have yet to enter the gate themselves, but all indicators point to a build up of forces near the gate, whether this is to keep it secure or to force passage is unknown.

On July 6th an individual named Amon, the apparent victor of a recent coup d'etat, offered to help provide food supplies to the Russian civilians and soldiers in exchange for them providing limited protection to the city from its enemies. Desperate for food and shelter the Russian commanders had no choice but to accept the offer or risk possible conflict on a second front against enemies they know little about and beyond any possible hope of rescue.
A large detachment of approximately 70 thousand men consisting of mostly infantry with little in the way of armor but a considerable artillery compliment has created a perimeter encircling the avatar side of the gate. More than 3,500 hundred artillery positions are sighted on a strip of land approximately 20 miles long (the gate opening). Occasionally a aerial transport will survive long enough to make it though the gate to drop much needed weapons and ammunition supplies (most do not survive the trip back through).
The bulk of Russian forces are held back in the outskirts of the city.

England:

England, while securing their gate as best as possible has as of yet been unable to thoroughly scout the area on the other side of their gate due to an increase in U-boat activity, but all reports so far show little more than a vast ocean and a gathering of apparently uninhabited island to the south.
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Re: WWII in the world of Avatar

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Read that other forum thread. It became stupidly hilarious by page 2, but repetitive by page 5 onwards. Gotta love that one guy who thought a mech suit with a LOS-restricted cannon could dominate a combined-arms army.
Ah yes, the "Alpha Legion". I thought we had dismissed such claims.
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Re: WWII in the world of Avatar

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gigabytelord wrote:UPDATE: On July 27th a flotilla of warships, presumably the same that was recorded before, is discovered sailing directly toward the gate, the sub mentioned before is shadowing their current course.

Despite the recent occurrence the Japanese military has decided not to postpone any of it's planned military actions save for the attack on the United State's Pacific holdings.
AAAAH no.

First of all, the entire Southern Strategy was viewed as being dependent on the attack on Pearl Harbor. And the Philippines, if not secured by Japan, represent a huge open, unsecured flank to any Japanese amphibious campaigns in the East Indies. Trying to go ahead in the East Indies without attacking the US (and, by extension, Pearl Harbor) would be an incredibly unwise gamble and I doubt the Japanese naval leadership would sign off on it. They might instead try attacking the Philippines in an attempt to draw the US battleline into their idealized Decisive Battle, and who knows it might have worked, but that's not the same thing as calling off the attack on US holdings entirely.

Japan would have made contact with the Fire Nation in a fairly short time. If nothing else, they have large warships and are very close to the Japanese coast, potentially a closer and more proximate threat to the Home Islands than anything since the Russian Pacific Fleet in 1905... and perhaps a good deal more dangerous than that fleet was. The IJN and Japanese diplomatic service will not give up until they have a reasonably accurate appreciation of who they're dealing with and whether they pose an unacceptable threat.
USA/Germany:

Upon the discovery of the gate, much to the chagrin of a large freight train and several small motor vehicles that happen to be traveling along a rail-line and several small roads that cross the area that the gate opened across, both the Missouri and Illinois National Guards are called up and sent to secure the area around the gate. After a week of paranoiac confusion the army air force sends through 20 scout plans to map the region on the other side of the gate.
A week? Army reconnaissance would be out there within a day or two.
Before the planes can return however a group of soldiers, surprisingly made up of both both men and women, passes through the gate to our side.

It is quickly discovered that they speak English and that they were just as surprised at the emergence of the gate as our selves and that they have taken much the same course of action.
Huh. So the Earth Nation speaks English? What do the other nations of the Avatarverse speak? Do they have distinct languages in canon or do they all speak the same one?
2 days ago they were approached by members of a nation call the 'German Reich' through an identical gate that formed a little over 200 miles to the south west of this one (from their perspective); it was at that point that they formed a expeditionary team of their own and sent them through this gate.

On July 19th, after a hastily assembled diplomatic corp was brought to the gate. The Secretary of State of the United States, Cordell Hull, was brought to the royal palace of Ba Sing Se. He arrived just as the President of the Reichstag, Hermann Goring, was being taken on a tour of the palace grounds.
I suppose that visits by cabinet level officials might take a few weeks to arrange, yes.
AREAS OF INTEREST: The people here are very interested our weapons as they seem to lack guns of any kind. They seem to be of a relatively similar technological level in some areas, less advanced in others and more advanced in still more. Suggest immediate economic engagement as the possibilities are literally endless.
Out of curiosity, in what areas to you judge the Earth Nation to be technologically ahead of 1940-era Earth?
Russia:

As of July 28th more than six hundred thousand Russian soldiers and civilians have fled through the portal. Contact was officially made with Republic city on the 5th July. Apparently there has been a great deal of civil strife in the city and surrounding areas over the last few weeks and the sudden appearance of so many people has caused a great deal of confusion in the city, the lack of linguistic compatibility as only added to this, thankfully several English speakers on the Russian side have stepped forward to offer their services in facilitating dialog.

With the Real Earth side now under the control of German forces the only communication in and out has been with brave pilots flying in under cover of night through the portal and back again. Thankfully the Germans have yet to enter the gate themselves, but all indicators point to a build up of forces near the gate, whether this is to keep it secure or to force passage is unknown.
Forcing a passage might be very difficult- but if this is a Hell's Gate style portal the Germans HAVE to keep both sides of the gate blockaded heavily while safeguarding their advance on Earth proper. If they fail to do so, then potentially a few hundred thousand Russian soldiers might come pouring back out of the gate into their rear area while their armored spearheads are hundreds of miles deeper into Russia. Not good.
A large detachment of approximately 70 thousand men consisting of mostly infantry with little in the way of armor but a considerable artillery compliment has created a perimeter encircling the avatar side of the gate. More than 3,500 hundred artillery positions are sighted on a strip of land approximately 20 miles long (the gate opening). Occasionally a aerial transport will survive long enough to make it though the gate to drop much needed weapons and ammunition supplies (most do not survive the trip back through).

The bulk of Russian forces are held back in the outskirts of the city.
Hm. The Russians are for all practical purposes impossible to resupply and Stalin will soon stop wasting transport planes in the attempt- a plane sent through is lost whether it gets shot down by the Germans or whether it lands on the other side and stays there. Moreover, the advancing Wehrmacht may have trouble moving past the portal due to the threat it poses to their rear (where the Russians can effectively consolidate in an infinitely large rear area, on a forty mile defensive front which cannot be outflanked or encircled)... But they will eventually secure all the land within a few hundred kilometers, making transport plane flights even more prohibitive.
England:

England, while securing their gate as best as possible has as of yet been unable to thoroughly scout the area on the other side of their gate due to an increase in U-boat activity, but all reports so far show little more than a vast ocean and a gathering of apparently uninhabited island to the south.
The English can at least spare a few small fishing vessels or the like and a small military expedition or three. They have a fair number of soldiers with rifles sitting around doing nothing in particular at the moment; they're just short on warships and airplanes.
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Re: WWII in the world of Avatar

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Simon_Jester wrote:AAAAH no.

First of all, the entire Southern Strategy was viewed as being dependent on the attack on Pearl Harbor. And the Philippines, if not secured by Japan, represent a huge open, unsecured flank to any Japanese amphibious campaigns in the East Indies. Trying to go ahead in the East Indies without attacking the US (and, by extension, Pearl Harbor) would be an incredibly unwise gamble and I doubt the Japanese naval leadership would sign off on it. They might instead try attacking the Philippines in an attempt to draw the US battleline into their idealized Decisive Battle, and who knows it might have worked, but that's not the same thing as calling off the attack on US holdings entirely.

Japan would have made contact with the Fire Nation in a fairly short time. If nothing else, they have large warships and are very close to the Japanese coast, potentially a closer and more proximate threat to the Home Islands than anything since the Russian Pacific Fleet in 1905... and perhaps a good deal more dangerous than that fleet was. The IJN and Japanese diplomatic service will not give up until they have a reasonably accurate appreciation of who they're dealing with and whether they pose an unacceptable threat.
The attack hasn't been canceled only postponed. I apologize for the misunderstanding I should have been more clear. I should point out that this is all taking place a little over four months before the attacks happened in real life anyways. So it's entirely possible that plans may change again depending on the course of debates here.
A week? Army reconnaissance would be out there within a day or two.
I thought around a week before scouting attempts might be reasonable seeing as the need to make sure the gate was secured would certainly take precedent.
Huh. So the Earth Nation speaks English? What do the other nations of the Avatarverse speak? Do they have distinct languages in canon or do they all speak the same one?
We know they all speak the same language, but we are never flat out told what that language is. The written language seems to Chinese and it's various dialects, but English has always been spoken on the shows so since it's neither stated for sure nor mentioned in canon I figured keeping is simple and using English would be the best route to go.
Out of curiosity, in what areas to you judge the Earth Nation to be technologically ahead of 1940-era Earth?
I was thinking that their capabilities to produce mecha and energy weapons might place them slightly ahead of us for the time period as well as mag-lev rail lines.
To say that another way, Technologically speaking they seem to be roughly even but inventing new technologies is one part creative thought and one part working with existing tech. We had the technical ability in 1941 to reproduce most of what we see in LoK but the creative thoughts that might have brought it about never occurred. Therefore because of differences in technological progression (i.e. going down a different path) they are ahead of us in several areas. As far as where we are more advanced (in 1941) we've already talked about that previously. Planes and guns are notable examples I'm sure there are other differences but nothing pops out at me right now.

As far other details are concerned if Goring were to secure a trade deal with the Earth Kingdom how would a large influx of resources, possibly already refined, affect the German war effort. Remember the US and Germany aren't war at this moment and four months is an eternity in modern politics.
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Re: WWII in the world of Avatar

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gigabytelord wrote:The attack hasn't been canceled only postponed. I apologize for the misunderstanding I should have been more clear. I should point out that this is all taking place a little over four months before the attacks happened in real life anyways. So it's entirely possible that plans may change again depending on the course of debates here.
The point is that if the attack on the Americans is postponed, the attack on the British and Dutch holdings must also be postponed. And since this takes place after FDR freezes Japanese assets, for all intents and purposes Japan is on a ticking clock and must find a new supply of oil in the near future.

So they cannot delay the Southern Strategy very long, unless they either decide to procure oil and gain imperial territory in the Fire Nation instead (possible) or decide to suddenly stop being conquering assholes (almost inconceivable).
A week? Army reconnaissance would be out there within a day or two.
I thought around a week before scouting attempts might be reasonable seeing as the need to make sure the gate was secured would certainly take precedent.
Yes, and part of making sure a thirty-mile long front is secure is reconnaissance of the other side. If you don't know what's over there, and where it's located, you can't secure it.
As far other details are concerned if Goring were to secure a trade deal with the Earth Kingdom how would a large influx of resources, possibly already refined, affect the German war effort. Remember the US and Germany aren't war at this moment and four months is an eternity in modern politics.
This is a significant point. Germany suffered in large part because they had essentially no trading partners of consequence aside from Spain and Sweden; everyone else around the entire periphery of their conquered territory was either an armed enemy or a vassal state.
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Re: WWII in the world of Avatar

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Simon_Jester wrote:The point is that if the attack on the Americans is postponed, the attack on the British and Dutch holdings must also be postponed. And since this takes place after FDR freezes Japanese assets, for all intents and purposes Japan is on a ticking clock and must find a new supply of oil in the near future.
I understand. One question and this is important, what kind of effect would the opening of an identical gate in the middle of the states have on both countries.
Simon_Jester wrote:So they cannot delay the Southern Strategy very long, unless they either decide to procure oil and gain imperial territory in the Fire Nation instead (possible) or decide to suddenly stop being conquering assholes (almost inconceivable).
Again I understand and agree on both points the question is then how would official first contact between the two powers go?
Something to think about here is that for the sake of convenience as it's never clarified in canon. The Fire Nation speaks English and writes in Chinese. One would think this alone might have an... adverse effect on the Japanese. In fact now that I think about it they probably already know what the Fire Nation's written language is from reading billboards or ship names and they might already know what their spoken language is as well from intercepted radio transmissions as the avartar-verse does have radio for both communications and entertainment.
Yes, and part of making sure a thirty-mile long front is secure is reconnaissance of the other side. If you don't know what's over there, and where it's located, you can't secure it.


Point taken I can retcon that if necessary.
This is a significant point. Germany suffered in large part because they had essentially no trading partners of consequence aside from Spain and Sweden; everyone else around the entire periphery of their conquered territory was either an armed enemy or a vassal state.
Okay follow up question/s. How will this effect any treaties the US may have signed with the Earth Kingdom by time fighting actually breaks out between them should that actually happen?
Now in this particular playout the Queen seems to be infatuated by the US secretary of state, while the military council are leaning toward Hermann Goering. I chose that particular path because the US has a history of supporting oppressive regimes in order to maintain stability and trade while culturally speaking the earth nation has a tendency to go with nationalism and uniformity even going as far as to reform into the aforementioned Earth Empire later in the series. While the Nazis loved supporting pro-German minorities and using them as reasons to either invade or take indirect control of a nation.

One of these two nations over the course of only several years raised itself out of poverty, built a national rail system and communications network, and invented or brought into mass production numerous new technologies, and nearly eliminated joblessness while simultaneously becoming an ultra nationalist expansionist empire that was willing to wage war against every nation on the planet if necessary to reclaim their lost glory all the while following a particularly charismatic person with a wicked since of style and great oratory skills... The other was NAZI Germany.
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Re: WWII in the world of Avatar

Post by Simon_Jester »

gigabytelord wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:The point is that if the attack on the Americans is postponed, the attack on the British and Dutch holdings must also be postponed. And since this takes place after FDR freezes Japanese assets, for all intents and purposes Japan is on a ticking clock and must find a new supply of oil in the near future.
I understand. One question and this is important, what kind of effect would the opening of an identical gate in the middle of the states have on both countries.
Well, the economic effect on the US is... mixed but small. The US economy was quite self-sufficient in this era, and while normally the opening up of a huge trading partner so easily accessible might well cause an economic flowering, right then the US was in the middle of a war mobilization that was consuming most of the available equipment for economic expansion.

On the Earth Kingdom, the effect of the US portal would probably be similarly minor, unless I'm missing something important about the Earth Kingdom economy.

Both countries may be somewhat inconvenienced by having a major rail line or two cut by the portal, but that's fixable in a few months and trains can be routed around to a large degree.

The effect on Japan and the Fire Kingdom depends almost entirely on whether Japan views the Fire Kingdom as a military threat, a trading partner, or a target for conquest- or, more realistically, some combination of the three.
Simon_Jester wrote:So they cannot delay the Southern Strategy very long, unless they either decide to procure oil and gain imperial territory in the Fire Nation instead (possible) or decide to suddenly stop being conquering assholes (almost inconceivable).
Again I understand and agree on both points the question is then how would official first contact between the two powers go?
Something to think about here is that for the sake of convenience as it's never clarified in canon. The Fire Nation speaks English and writes in Chinese. One would think this alone might have an... adverse effect on the Japanese. In fact now that I think about it they probably already know what the Fire Nation's written language is from reading billboards or ship names and they might already know what their spoken language is as well from intercepted radio transmissions as the avartar-verse does have radio for both communications and entertainment.
Hm. The Japanese may be predisposed to regard the Fire Nation as inferior, but they think everyone is inferior. I think they will still make strategic decisions based on what the Fire Nation has to offer in terms of trade (uncertain) and the perceived ease of conquering them (their navy will appear weak, but their army consists of an indeterminate number of random people who have fire magic, and that may frighten the Japanese unduly).

Question: does bending work on our Earth in this crossover?
Yes, and part of making sure a thirty-mile long front is secure is reconnaissance of the other side. If you don't know what's over there, and where it's located, you can't secure it.
Point taken I can retcon that if necessary.
I strongly recommend it. Basically, military patrols both on foot and in the air are going to be like the first thing anyone does around these portals- you can't secure something you can't scout.
This is a significant point. Germany suffered in large part because they had essentially no trading partners of consequence aside from Spain and Sweden; everyone else around the entire periphery of their conquered territory was either an armed enemy or a vassal state.
Okay follow up question/s. How will this effect any treaties the US may have signed with the Earth Kingdom by time fighting actually breaks out between them should that actually happen?
Well... hm.

OK, point one, this gives the Germans an invasion route into the American heartland. That is a very serious problem for the US. Conversely, this gives the US an invasion route into the German heartland, which is an equally if not more serious problem for the Germans since their entire army is already committed to fighting on other fronts and there is little or no military manpower to spare for anything else.

Basically, the Germans can't spare enough manpower to send through the Ba Sing Se metropolitan area a force large enough to conquer a significant portion of America. The US, within two years, can spare enough manpower to occupy the heart of Germany through the portal. The Germans are probably going to be aware of this, and so are the Americans.

So the Germans are kind of screwed unless they can persuade the Earth Kingdom to actively join the Axis. Earth Kingdom neutrality is a temporary solution but only a temporary one- because the US might possibly decide to violate that neutrality if it thinks it's worth the risk, and because the Earth Kingdom might abandon said neutrality at any time if they think the Germans are going to be on the losing side.

If this were before Barbarossa the Germans might try invading the US instead (if they could get passage through the Earth Kingdom or secure it by force). But that is not an option now.

Hm, note, I assume both portals are outside the very large walls of Ba Sing Se. Those walls are thick enough that they would actually present a significant military obstacle for WWII armed forces, because blasting a gap through them with explosives would take a very long time, and even reducing them to rubble would just leave you with a huge pile of rubble that cannot easily be scaled or driven over, besides which the earthbenders can just pile up heaps of dirt against the back side of the wall almost indefinitely...
Now in this particular playout the Queen seems to be infatuated by the US secretary of state, while the military council are leaning toward Hermann Goering. I chose that particular path because the US has a history of supporting oppressive regimes in order to maintain stability and trade while culturally speaking the earth nation has a tendency to go with nationalism and uniformity even going as far as to reform into the aforementioned Earth Empire later in the series. While the Nazis loved supporting pro-German minorities and using them as reasons to either invade or take indirect control of a nation.
Here, the Nazis are going to lose the war some time in 1943 or '44 unless they persuade the Earth Kingdom to join them and the Earth Kingdom can prevent the US from sending a major army through the Berlin portal. It's that simple.
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Re: WWII in the world of Avatar

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Can you see through the portals, or is it some sort of opaque energy field that you have to pass through? Because that would really change how you set up defenses around them. And also whether or not you could fly bombers, or roll tanks through.
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Re: WWII in the world of Avatar

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A Hell's Gate style portal is transparent.

Also, you can still fly stuff through if it's opaque- the catch is that someone will have to realize it's a portal you can pass through instead of a mysterious wall, which will probably take about two seconds after the moment someone physically walks up to it.

Aircraft passing through are safe regardless. Ground vehicles would want someone on the other side playing traffic control and keeping the part of their route on the other side of the portal clear of obstructions.
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Re: WWII in the world of Avatar

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Just to be clear - you can see through to the other side, or it's simply not visible and you pop into another world without any warning?
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Re: WWII in the world of Avatar

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You can totally see through the portal to the other side, just as you could see through a millimeter-thick layer of air. The portals from Hell's Gate are entirely transparent to light and matter (and, presumably, to radio waves, microwaves, and so on). They are not transparent to psychic and magical abilities but that's a separate question.
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Re: WWII in the world of Avatar

Post by Purple »

I think that the question was not if the portal is transparent but if a guy standing near a portal on one side can see through and into the other world.
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Re: WWII in the world of Avatar

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Er, yes, that's what I thought I said. The portal is transparent- but rays of light go through it just like matter does. You look through a portal that opens out onto another planet's North Pole, you see ice fields and feel cold wind roaring through the portal into your face. You do NOT see whatever is physically on the other side of the portal in 'your' world. Because the stuff on the other side of the portal (i.e. north of it, not south of it like you) isn't actually in your line of sight... your line of sight extends out into this other world, through the portal.
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Re: WWII in the world of Avatar

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Simon_Jester wrote:Well, the economic effect on the US is... mixed but small. The US economy was quite self-sufficient in this era, and while normally the opening up of a huge trading partner so easily accessible might well cause an economic flowering, right then the US was in the middle of a war mobilization that was consuming most of the available equipment for economic expansion.

On the Earth Kingdom, the effect of the US portal would probably be similarly minor, unless I'm missing something important about the Earth Kingdom economy.

Both countries may be somewhat inconvenienced by having a major rail line or two cut by the portal, but that's fixable in a few months and trains can be routed around to a large degree.

The effect on Japan and the Fire Kingdom depends almost entirely on whether Japan views the Fire Kingdom as a military threat, a trading partner, or a target for conquest- or, more realistically, some combination of the three.
I suppose further discussion will take us further down this particular rabbit hole.
Simon_Jester wrote:Hm. The Japanese may be predisposed to regard the Fire Nation as inferior, but they think everyone is inferior. I think they will still make strategic decisions based on what the Fire Nation has to offer in terms of trade (uncertain) and the perceived ease of conquering them (their navy will appear weak, but their army consists of an indeterminate number of random people who have fire magic, and that may frighten the Japanese unduly).
Regarding both this and the above, unfortunately history tells us that once Japan started it's climb to empire it proceeded to attack every single one of it's neighbors. Now it did this for various stated reasons but the eventual goal was the same. To create a ocean spanning Empire that would could compete directly with and defeat the western powers. Korea, China, France through it's colonies, the British Empire through it's, the US both through it's colonies and directly as well as every western held colony and independent in Oceania. Looking at that record it's hard to imagine this contact being peaceful very long. Even German had at least one next door ally that they had no intentions (at that time) of conquering. Finland and in the first half of the war Fascist Italy which it ended up occupying anyways because it lacked the ability or will to defend itself due to lack of popular support.

As for the Fire Nation it's stated on the wiki that it is the most technologically advanced of the five nations but is... unhelpful as to how that is the case. There is evidence that Fire Nation is the strongest naval power and probably produces the ships that the Water Tribe and The United Republic of Nations use but it's never stated outright.
Question: does bending work on our Earth in this crossover?
Yes.
Simon_Jester wrote:OK, point one, this gives the Germans an invasion route into the American heartland. That is a very serious problem for the US. Conversely, this gives the US an invasion route into the German heartland, which is an equally if not more serious problem for the Germans since their entire army is already committed to fighting on other fronts and there is little or no military manpower to spare for anything else.
Basically, the Germans can't spare enough manpower to send through the Ba Sing Se metropolitan area a force large enough to conquer a significant portion of America. The US, within two years, can spare enough manpower to occupy the heart of Germany through the portal. The Germans are probably going to be aware of this, and so are the Americans.
So the Germans are kind of screwed unless they can persuade the Earth Kingdom to actively join the Axis. Earth Kingdom neutrality is a temporary solution but only a temporary one- because the US might possibly decide to violate that neutrality if it thinks it's worth the risk, and because the Earth Kingdom might abandon said neutrality at any time if they think the Germans are going to be on the losing side.
If this were before Barbarossa the Germans might try invading the US instead (if they could get passage through the Earth Kingdom or secure it by force). But that is not an option now.
Hm, note, I assume both portals are outside the very large walls of Ba Sing Se. Those walls are thick enough that they would actually present a significant military obstacle for WWII armed forces, because blasting a gap through them with explosives would take a very long time, and even reducing them to rubble would just leave you with a huge pile of rubble that cannot easily be scaled or driven over, besides which the earthbenders can just pile up heaps of dirt against the back side of the wall almost indefinitely...
Simon_Jester wrote:Here, the Nazis are going to lose the war some time in 1943 or '44 unless they persuade the Earth Kingdom to join them and the Earth Kingdom can prevent the US from sending a major army through the Berlin portal. It's that simple.
I guess I'll try hammer out both of these at once. More questions, ideas and suppositions.
Okay we know that the Earth Kingdom was on the verge of political, economic, and social collapse. We also know, from the show, that they are currently in a state that was very similar to Germany directly after after the Wall Street collapse of 1929, although the reasons they got to such a point are very different. There is still a lot of resentment over the loss of territories in the west, the same territories that currently make up TURoN and Republic city which if you'll remember is currently hosting seven hundred thousand Russian soldiers and refugees and is now under the control of Amon. In season four, under the command of Kuvira, the then Earth Empire lead an invasion the city and was beaten back by the avatar at great cost to the city and it's inhabitants and presumably Kuvira's army.

The question is, will the emergence of the gate cause this civil disorder take break out early? In the series, although we see relatively little of the fighting, it's basically a civil war they end up fighting, with several major cities and territories breaking free and declaring defacto independence.

It takes Kuvira more than two years to bring the violence to an end. How much longer would it take if these factions are being supplied with reasources and weapons from the USSR or Germany or the US?
And another unfortunate issue I see is again the immense size of Ba Sing Se.
Here's a (poorly :lol: ) updated avatar map with the gate locations added.

I'm wondering should the royal family and Earth Kingdom military counsel choose to two different allies would we end up with another Stalingrad? Except on a much more massive scale. With the United Republic under the control of Amon who is in an uneasy alliance with the soviet forces in the region in order the protect himself from any counter attacks from the Fire Nation's navy and any remaining UR forces left in the area, which are very few as UR effectively had no real military before this point.

Here's a map of the United Republic. It's small but that's all I could find on short notice. Gah I'm rambling and tired... need sleep... and sorry for the long delay! I've been so busy with the forum and work that I've had little time to devote to writing such a long posts.
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Re: WWII in the world of Avatar

Post by Simon_Jester »

gigabytelord wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Well, the economic effect on the US is... mixed but small. The US economy was quite self-sufficient in this era, and while normally the opening up of a huge trading partner so easily accessible might well cause an economic flowering, right then the US was in the middle of a war mobilization that was consuming most of the available equipment for economic expansion.

On the Earth Kingdom, the effect of the US portal would probably be similarly minor, unless I'm missing something important about the Earth Kingdom economy.

Both countries may be somewhat inconvenienced by having a major rail line or two cut by the portal, but that's fixable in a few months and trains can be routed around to a large degree.

The effect on Japan and the Fire Kingdom depends almost entirely on whether Japan views the Fire Kingdom as a military threat, a trading partner, or a target for conquest- or, more realistically, some combination of the three.
I suppose further discussion will take us further down this particular rabbit hole.
Uh... probably yes? Which rabbit hole do you mean?

Seriously, the Japan/Fire Kingdom wild card is one of the two BIG things that's likely to shake things up drastically on the Earth side of the portal, with the whole "120 mile route from St. Louis to Berlin through two portals" issue being the other one.

Meanwhile, in the grand scheme of things, the Republic City portal is also important in the extreme from the point of view of the Avatarverse... but not so important from the Earthside point of view because all it really does is seriously hamper the Germans in that specific part of Barbarossa.

[The hampering is because there's a large force of Soviet troops who retreated through the portal in fairly good order, and assuming the Germans can't get them interned, they have to secure the portal to make sure they don't have a few dozen divisions of Reds charging into their rear areas a few weeks from now when their front lines have advanced hundreds of miles to the east]

The Britain/Water Kingdom and South Pole/South Pole portals just aren't going to cause a lot of change in the near future, on either side.
Regarding both this and the above, unfortunately history tells us that once Japan started it's climb to empire it proceeded to attack every single one of it's neighbors. Now it did this for various stated reasons but the eventual goal was the same. To create a ocean spanning Empire that would could compete directly with and defeat the western powers. Korea, China, France through it's colonies, the British Empire through it's, the US both through it's colonies and directly as well as every western held colony and independent in Oceania. Looking at that record it's hard to imagine this contact being peaceful very long. Even German had at least one next door ally that they had no intentions (at that time) of conquering. Finland and in the first half of the war Fascist Italy which it ended up occupying anyways because it lacked the ability or will to defend itself due to lack of popular support.

As for the Fire Nation it's stated on the wiki that it is the most technologically advanced of the five nations but is... unhelpful as to how that is the case. There is evidence that Fire Nation is the strongest naval power and probably produces the ships that the Water Tribe and The United Republic of Nations use but it's never stated outright.
Yes. However, we have reason to think the Fire Nation cannot build warships capable of surviving combat against artillery-armed 'Terran' ships (here NOT using 'Earth' as an adjective, because that's ambiguous).

The real questions are:

1) Will Japan choose to attack the Fire Nation as an alternative to the historical Southern Strategy of conquering the European colonies of the East Indies and, as an inevitable side-effect, going to war with the US?
2) If Japan does not choose to attack the Fire Nation, can/will they instead choose to trade with the Fire Nation, as a measure directed at preserving their economy and securing an additional supply of oil, scrap metal, and so on? Because if so, then it is no longer a critical strategic necessity that they pursue the Southern Strategy at all; they have the resources they need to finish the war in China. Even Japan might prefer to finish one war before beginning another one, if that is a realistic option.

We know that historically Japan was actually quite interested in securing US acquiescence to their expansion. Realistically that was never going to happen for them... Japan didn't grasp that and kept trying anyway. Because they really did not want to fight the US while doing all the other things they'd have to do at the same time.
Question: does bending work on our Earth in this crossover?
Yes.
That has interesting ramifications. Not so much in terms of combat but... what are the noncombatant applications of 'benders? I am not adequately familiar with the series.
I guess I'll try hammer out both of these at once. More questions, ideas and suppositions.

Okay we know that the Earth Kingdom was on the verge of political, economic, and social collapse. We also know, from the show, that they are currently in a state that was very similar to Germany directly after after the Wall Street collapse of 1929, although the reasons they got to such a point are very different. There is still a lot of resentment over the loss of territories in the west, the same territories that currently make up TURoN and Republic city which if you'll remember is currently hosting seven hundred thousand Russian soldiers and refugees and is now under the control of Amon. In season four, under the command of Kuvira, the then Earth Empire lead an invasion the city and was beaten back by the avatar at great cost to the city and it's inhabitants and presumably Kuvira's army.

The question is, will the emergence of the gate cause this civil disorder take break out early? In the series, although we see relatively little of the fighting, it's basically a civil war they end up fighting, with several major cities and territories breaking free and declaring defacto independence.
It might. On the other hand, it might also make things more stable in the short run, because it gives the Earth Kingdom two potential trading partners, both of whom are eager consumers of a wide variety of resources and goods- especially the Germans.

Then again, the political intrigue between the US and Germany is likely to cause extreme instability at the very top of the Earth Kingdom's political structure. The US would very much love to persuade the Earth Kingdom to let them march an army through the portals (better yet, assist the US Army as it marches out into Germany). The Germans, in turn, need to persuade the Earth Kingdom to resist any major US attempt to attack through the Berlin, or they will lose the war. Even having bomber groups flying through the portals will be bad enough, because the Germans now have to worry about the US being able to hit Berlin (and other nearby German cities) with basically every aircraft in their inventory, with full fighter support... which means they have to massively concentrate air defenses right around the portal, which in turn means thinning them out all over the rest of Europe, including important areas like the Ruhr.
And another unfortunate issue I see is again the immense size of Ba Sing Se.
How big? That map is cartoonish (not your fault). It sounds like Ba Sing Se is actually more like a large city-state with the outer walls incorporating a hinterland tens of thousands of square miles in area. Is that correct?

[Note that if so it somewhat reduces the bomber issues, if only because the bombers may not be able to make it through both portals and hit Berlin from bases in Missouri with fighter escort]
I'm wondering should the royal family and Earth Kingdom military counsel choose to two different allies would we end up with another Stalingrad? Except on a much more massive scale.
More likely that we get Earth Kingdom factions fighting inside Ba Sing Se among themselves. One side or the other may bring in foreign allies, but the sheer size of Ba Sing Se's population (what percentage are earthbenders?) will make them... less than a major factor.

Neither side is likely to actually put in the effort to penetrate Ba Sing Se's walls if the city is hostile to them. The Germans literally cannot spare the manpower; if they had another million men to spare they'd send them all to Russia, NOT to start another front in the Earth Kingdom. They could maybe spare the manpower to form an Erdreichkorps ("Earth Country Corps"), and the US might deploy a comparable size force to defeat them but that's not the same thing. Plus, both sides would have significant numbers of earthbender allies capable of opening the walls themselves if the need arose.

Conversely, while the US does have enough fighting men to at least seriously consider invading the Earth Kingdom, they are highly unlikely to do so unless the Earth Kingdom actively declares for Nazi Germany and threatens to invade the US by way of the St. Louis Portal.
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Re: WWII in the world of Avatar

Post by gigabytelord »

I'm going to be posting an updated OP eventually I'm just a bit overwhelmed right now in a lot of places.
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