Our World 1680 connected to Abeir-Toril 1373 DR

[Honorius]

What examples? D&D is an RPG not a TV series. Bullets are just another missile weapon and cannons are just another siege weapon (D&D as I have mentioned, has stats for them) and protection from normal missiles, for example, will protect against both of them. A cannon would probably get some damage through protection from normal missiles (but that's getting into D&D's terrible hit point damage system and its siege weapon stat fail) but spells like wraithform or the previously mentioned greater ironguard would give complete protection from both.

How about the novels where we have quantifiable actions. Game Mechanics are not useful for the discussion, otherwise we are bashing our heads uselessly trying to figure out what works.

The area the Zhentarim directly controls is visible part of the iceber. It's called the Black Network for a reason. It physically controls areas around the Moonsea, includes most of the mines near The Ride, but its influence is felt over all of Northern Faerun due to its efforts spent controlling trade and the fact that it works hand in glove with the church of Bane.

Influence is not the same as control, and the trade network's protection may have less to do with the reach of the Zhentarim than it does with market access rights and the economics of the area.

[Solauren]

Well let's see:

Religious
The various religions on Earth go "OH SHIT" when people that can actually speak the Egyptian Gods show up. The old norse religion gets a boast.

The Norse gods active in the Realms nudges the others 'Hey, check this out'.

Possibly the other religions of Earth start getting spells as their deities 'wake up', or get hijacked by Egyptian, Norse, Realms, Demihuman, or other being deities.

Dragons see our world as ripe for the taking. And look, no King-Killer Star/Dracorage....

As for gunpowder armies, the Realms was developing working Firearms technology. This would see it spread faster.

I can see it now. +5 Cannon of Speed, Distance, Sonic Burst, firing +5 Enlarging Sonic Burst Shot.

Actually, I might have to use that....

[Jub]

How about the novels where we have quantifiable actions. Game Mechanics are not useful for the discussion, otherwise we are bashing our heads uselessly trying to figure out what works.

99.9% of all published spells, feats, skills, and classes from any given edition will never show up in a novel. We can still however quantify many of them based on what we know about the world.

One easy example would be figuring out the power output of certain spells based on the amount of damage they do to a sheet of iron with the dimensions 120"x120"x3" for a volume of 43,200 cubic inches. This sheet has a Break DC of 30, a hardness of 10, and 90 hit points according to the 3.5 DMG. If we assume that spells like lightning bolt and fireball melt such an object when they damage them it allows us to do some simple math to calculate the energy output of a spell able to deal 90 points of elemental or force damage.

43,200in3 = 25ft3
25ft3 of cast grey iron has a mass of 11,050lb.
1lb. of cast grey iron needs 41.4 Btu of energy to melt
Thus, our sheet of iron requires 457,470Btu (482,656kJ) of energy to melt

Now 90hp worth of damage in a single spell may seem hard to do, but an 11th level mage can easily pump out 96 damage in a round with a twin-spelled scorching ray cast through a metamagic rod of maximization*. If we bump him up a level to level 12 he can now deal 144 damage in the same span**.

*2 rays dealing 4d6 fire damage each, twin-spelled for a total output of 16d6 and maximized for 96 damage.
*3 rays dealing 4d6 fire damage each, twin-spelled for a total output of 24d6 and maximized for 144 damage.

You might argue that we can't scale off this. I would agree if we weren't given an iron door to scale off of as well. We're told that our iron door has 60 hit points and a thickness of 2", but not the door's width or height. However given that an average human male in D&D 3.5 stands at 5'9" tall and weighs 175lb. it seems fair to use the size of a standard modern door. Using the smallest common size of 6'6" tall by 2'6" wide we find that our iron door has a volume of 4,680 cubic inches. Plugging the numbers from the wall we get the following:

4,680in3 = 2.7ft3
2.7ft3 of cast grey iron has a mass of 1,193lb.
1lb. of cast grey iron needs 41.4 Btu of energy to melt
Thus, our iron door requires 49,407Btu (52,127kJ) of energy to melt

Given these results, we are shown that energy requirements per hit point do not scale in a simple one-to-one fashion. The door took roughly 823Btu of energy per hit point to melt while the wall took approximately 5,000Btu per hit point. Ideally we'd like a 3rd data-point to help anchor our scale, but this should be enough to scale from. I'd take a shot at it myself, but I haven't used any high-level math in ages and can't recall how to take these two data points and use them to find Btu/hp for any given HP value.

[Imperial Overlord]

How about the novels where we have quantifiable actions. Game Mechanics are not useful for the discussion, otherwise we are bashing our heads uselessly trying to figure out what works.

How about you prove your own points? D&D game mechanics have been handling gun powder weapons since 2nd edition and they don't treat them any differently than any other missile or siege weapon. The game mechanics are a rough approximation on how the world works. We've given you multiple examples of spells that will work according to the game mechanics. Accept it or find examples of it them not working.

Influence is not the same as control, and the trade network's protection may have less to do with the reach of the Zhentarim than it does with market access rights and the economics of the area.

The Zhentarim actively establishes monopolistic control of trade routes through violence, intimidation, and blackmail. They use the aforementioned armed to the gills with magic goodies wizards mounted on flying monsters as caravan guards and raiders, among many other agents. So yes, they can very much project power into areas they don't directly control. There's a reason its called the Black Network.

[Simon_Jester]

Given these results, we are shown that energy requirements per hit point do not scale in a simple one-to-one fashion. The door took roughly 823Btu of energy per hit point to melt while the wall took approximately 5,000Btu per hit point. Ideally we'd like a 3rd data-point to help anchor our scale, but this should be enough to scale from. I'd take a shot at it myself, but I haven't used any high-level math in ages and can't recall how to take these two data points and use them to find Btu/hp for any given HP value.

Hit points also don't necessarily represent an object being totally destroyed, just destroyed functionally.

Stab an orc with a spear, and his corpse doesn't vaporize just because you inflicted X points of damage and he only had X-1 hit points.

So the heat rays and lightning attacks might well cause enough structural damage to the door that it sags, partly melted, and falls off its hinges. Likewise the wall might warp in the heat and just fall down or lose its structural strength and collapse, as overheated iron and steel are prone to do. And likewise a stone wall destroyed by hit point damage is almost certainly reduced to rubble, not a river of lava, because a persistent man with a pickaxe CAN take down a stone wall... by reducing it to rubble.

On another note, is the typical D&D NPC as seen in the sourcebooks as optimized as you describe? Because if we're asking the question "how dangerous are the Zhentarim fire-wizards" or whatever, we have to go off what we've actually seen Zhentarim wizards DO, not what we can theoretically imagine them being capable of if they all optimize their builds.

If a poorly optimized 15th level wizard can run a given country by sheer magocratic power, it suggests that there isn't anyone else out there powerful enough to take it away from him. Which means that there probably aren't a lot of well-optimized 13th or 14th level wizards in the setting, regardless of what the PCs do in any inidividual campaign. If there were that many well optimized wizards, one of them would probably be able to challenge and defeat our magocratic tyrant who focused on blasting spells and forgot to craft his own Stick of Superpower or whatever.

[Jub]

Hit points also don't necessarily represent an object being totally destroyed, just destroyed functionally.

Stab an orc with a spear, and his corpse doesn't vaporize just because you inflicted X points of damage and he only had X-1 hit points.

So the heat rays and lightning attacks might well cause enough structural damage to the door that it sags, partly melted, and falls off its hinges. Likewise the wall might warp in the heat and just fall down or lose its structural strength and collapse, as overheated iron and steel are prone to do. And likewise a stone wall destroyed by hit point damage is almost certainly reduced to rubble, not a river of lava, because a persistent man with a pickaxe CAN take down a stone wall... by reducing it to rubble.

We know what happens to an orc when we deal HP from x to x+9, as well as x+10, the rules clearly cover this. We don't get any clear guideline for what happens to objects when they're destroyed. Thus, my outcome from an elemental spell is just as valid as yours lacking any rules for what it takes to overkill an object. Once can even argue that such a result would be the purview of the player as part of the spell's description.

Still, feel free to take a stab at giving us hard numbers for what it takes to warp a door off of its hinges or shatter a rock wall.

On another note, is the typical D&D NPC as seen in the sourcebooks as optimized as you describe? Because if we're asking the question "how dangerous are the Zhentarim fire-wizards" or whatever, we have to go off what we've actually seen Zhentarim wizards DO, not what we can theoretically imagine them being capable of if they all optimize their builds.

If a poorly optimized 15th level wizard can run a given country by sheer magocratic power, it suggests that there isn't anyone else out there powerful enough to take it away from him. Which means that there probably aren't a lot of well-optimized 13th or 14th level wizards in the setting, regardless of what the PCs do in any inidividual campaign. If there were that many well optimized wizards, one of them would probably be able to challenge and defeat our magocratic tyrant who focused on blasting spells and forgot to craft his own Stick of Superpower or whatever.

Why assume that power = leadership, even in a magocracy? The best and most powerful people in real life have a combination of skills and charisma that get them into a position to gain and hold power. Plus leaders of any large nation will have vast wealth, beyond even that of high-level PCs, to invest in items and defenses to keep them safe. So we can't assume that unoptimized leaders mean that it's rare to ever see anybody stronger than they are, even among their own ranks. Once you have power if you keep your underlings happy/cowed enough even a weakling will be safe.

We don't see what a typical mage looks like in any source book. The DMG's basic NPC Wizard is a Drow which, outside of a very specific setting, can't be considered common. The closest we get for this are the city builder rules which give us some idea of how many people in them will have PC classes and what the level spread may look like. So we really can't say anything about how optimized or unoptimized the average D&D mage is.

As for my idea representing some sort of optimized build, that's plain nonsense. The entire build consists of one item and one feat. The item can be purchased for 14,000gp, if you can craft that type of item then it's a few days time and 7,000gp. The other part of that combo is a feat with the only prerequisite as having any other metamagic feat. It's from a non-core source but is a feat that any blaster style mage worth his salt would want to take if he had the option to do so.

[Simon_Jester]

We know what happens to an orc when we deal HP from x to x+9, as well as x+10, the rules clearly cover this. We don't get any clear guideline for what happens to objects when they're destroyed. Thus, my outcome from an elemental spell is just as valid as yours lacking any rules for what it takes to overkill an object. Once can even argue that such a result would be the purview of the player as part of the spell's description.

Still, feel free to take a stab at giving us hard numbers for what it takes to warp a door off of its hinges or shatter a rock wall.

At a rough estimate, about an order of magnitude less than it would take to outright melt the thing, if we're using "warped by heat and lost structural strength" as the mechanism of destruction. Chopping up a rock wall would depend very heavily on how many pieces it falls into.

But in all seriousness, assuming things have to be melted or vaporized before they count as 'destroyed' is a flawed model for a number of reasons, I've seen it in many places, and I'm not doing this out of a personal urge to pooh-pooh things.

Why assume that power = leadership, even in a magocracy? The best and most powerful people in real life have a combination of skills and charisma that get them into a position to gain and hold power...

You missed part of what I said. I was referring to a hypothetical nation where the ruler does indeed rule the country by force.

There are societies in Faerun, and most other fantasy RPG settings I know of, where it would be socially acceptable for a significantly more powerful wizard to depose and kill a lesser wizard and claim the ruling position of a magocratic society (or province). It might not be easy but at least it would be possible. These thrones and other positions of power are valued, people intrigue and struggle for them- both among humans, and in other societies.

If fully optimized wizards were the norm among NPCs in Faerun, no unoptimized wizard could hold such a dominant position in society. No unoptimized wizard would even be much of a threat because the more numerous optimized wizards would tend to defend the status quo, successfully. And indeed there would be fewer unoptimized high level wizards anyway, because of Darwinian processes- a larger percent of all wizards who try to reach tenth or fifteenth level will die trying if they are unoptimized. In societies where wizards hold most of the power (e.g. Thay), and where you need merit as a powerful wizard to become successful... virtually all successful wizards would be optimized because optimized wizards are more successful by all possible metrics. If you were teaching an apprentice and wanted them to be successful, you would teach them the skills they need to have an optimized build (e.g. the correct spells, and so on)

So the point is, while hell yes it is possible to optimize wizards far more than the 'boring conventional' approach permits... we have a lot of evidence suggesting that NPC casters in Forgotten Realms and other canonical D&D settings are not thus optimized. If they were, they'd all have to be optimized, because otherwise the optimized people would take over all important positions held by poorly optimized wizards.

And it would become generally accepted that "Now THIS is how you teach a wizard to succeed!" In other words, that optimized would be the only kind of build that is considered 'normal.' And that would show up in the sourcebooks and so on because wizard NPCs would be optimized.

Plus leaders of any large nation will have vast wealth, beyond even that of high-level PCs, to invest in items and defenses to keep them safe.

But such items and defenses would be detailed in the same place we'd get the NPCs' stats from, so this changes nothing.

The question is simply, are there places ruled over by personal force, specifically, which are ruled by poorly optimized characters? If so, Darwinian selection would suggest that these poorly optimized wizards are nonetheless capable of defending their niche. Sure, any one optimized wizard might be persuaded to avoid taking the throne away from our poorly optimized tyrant. But all optimized wizards over a period of decades?

Not if optimized wizards are common.

Of course, if optimized wizards are rare, this isn't an issue.

So we can't assume that unoptimized leaders mean that it's rare to ever see anybody stronger than they are, even among their own ranks. Once you have power if you keep your underlings happy/cowed enough even a weakling will be safe.

But how did a weakling successfully compete with non-weaklings to acquire power in the first place? And how can it be that seemingly every NPC wizard is a weakling, relative to the performance of our hypothetical optimized-build wizard at comparable level? How does this support the conclusion that there are numerous optimized wizards wandering around who all just happen not to be seeking or competing for power and who never bother to step in and end the chaos and oppression and trouble created by the poorly optimized wizards.

We don't see what a typical mage looks like in any source book. The DMG's basic NPC Wizard is a Drow which, outside of a very specific setting, can't be considered common. The closest we get for this are the city builder rules which give us some idea of how many people in them will have PC classes and what the level spread may look like. So we really can't say anything about how optimized or unoptimized the average D&D mage is.

We can use the (statted out) wizards in the source books as an example, though...

If there are wizards who are marginalized and considered weak and outcast, and they are poorly optimized, and this is a consistent pattern... perhaps those marginalized wizards became marginalized due to poor builds. Perhaps they could never rise to high level, because their poor build makes it too dangerous for them to take risks and obtain more magical knowledge.

If there are wizards who are successful and are considered strong and have attained power or glory or renown or fear... then those really ought to be some of the most powerful wizards in the world. Both 'most powerful' in the sense of 'high level,' and 'most powerful' in the sense of 'optimal builds.'

As for my idea representing some sort of optimized build, that's plain nonsense. The entire build consists of one item and one feat. The item can be purchased for 14,000gp, if you can craft that type of item then it's a few days time and 7,000gp. The other part of that combo is a feat with the only prerequisite as having any other metamagic feat. It's from a non-core source but is a feat that any blaster style mage worth his salt would want to take if he had the option to do so.

So DO all blaster-style mages take it? Because so far as we can tell there's nothing in Faerun stopping wizards from learning whatever magic will make them powerful.

Basically, if most NPC mages (or blaster-type mages) with known statistics have this capability, you can reasonably argue that most NPC mages have this capability. If they don't, you can't.

[Ralin]

Uh, the 3rd edition version of Protection from Arrows functions as straight damage reduction. Meaning that yes, if a subsonic arrow can break it (which mechanically it can) so should a supersonic bullet. The 2nd edition Protection from Normal Missiles is blanket immunity but includes a clause saying that larger projectiles like giant-thrown boulders (or cannonballs, which are about the same size if I remember right) punch through it with a fairly small attack/damage penalty.

[Imperial Overlord]

Uh, the 3rd edition version of Protection from Arrows functions as straight damage reduction. Meaning that yes, if a subsonic arrow can break it (which mechanically it can) so should a supersonic bullet. The 2nd edition Protection from Normal Missiles is blanket immunity but includes a clause saying that larger projectiles like giant-thrown boulders (or cannonballs, which are about the same size if I remember right) punch through it with a fairly small attack/damage penalty.

Yes, that's true. What's also true is that most musket and rifle rounds will mechanically fail to break it and 2nd edition's blanket immunity also includes bullets and trying to pick off a specific person with a seventeenth century cannon isn't easy without adding penalties from defensive magic. This is, of course, one spell that grants protection from gunfire and one of the lower level ones. Stoneskin, wraithform, iron guard, and greater ironguard (as examples) all give better protection.

[PKRudeBoy]

There are societies in Faerun, and most other fantasy RPG settings I know of, where it would be socially acceptable for a significantly more powerful wizard to depose and kill a lesser wizard and claim the ruling position of a magocratic society (or province). It might not be easy but at least it would be possible. These thrones and other positions of power are valued, people intrigue and struggle for them- both among humans, and in other societies.

Can you name one in Faerun? Because the only place I could see that happening is in the Border Kingdoms, and they don't really count as an actual country. You might be able to pull it of with the Zhents or in Thay, but in both you're tangling with epic level mages, and in the former you need to deal with the church of Bane, and in the latter unless you have the backing of Szass Tam, you better be prepared to deal with him. The only other real magocracies are Nimbral, where you would have to face down 26 epic or near epic mages, Halruaa, Deep Imaskar, and Rasheman, where dozens of high level mages will take exception to your coup, Shade, where you are dealing with a dozen or so Netherese Arcanists in the royal family alone, Silverymoon and Algarond, which are more traditional monarchies where the rulers happen to be epic level mages and Chosen of Mystra, and elven kingdoms, which also tend to be chock full of high and epic level wizards. A decently optimized 15th level wizard might be able to knock over a city state by himself, and probably a fairly small one at that.

[Esquire]

Necro much? And you answered your own question half a dozen times over, so what's your point?

[Rogue 9]

There are societies in Faerun, and most other fantasy RPG settings I know of, where it would be socially acceptable for a significantly more powerful wizard to depose and kill a lesser wizard and claim the ruling position of a magocratic society (or province). It might not be easy but at least it would be possible. These thrones and other positions of power are valued, people intrigue and struggle for them- both among humans, and in other societies.

Can you name one in Faerun? Because the only place I could see that happening is in the Border Kingdoms, and they don't really count as an actual country. You might be able to pull it of with the Zhents or in Thay, but in both you're tangling with epic level mages, and in the former you need to deal with the church of Bane, and in the latter unless you have the backing of Szass Tam, you better be prepared to deal with him. The only other real magocracies are Nimbral, where you would have to face down 26 epic or near epic mages, Halruaa, Deep Imaskar, and Rasheman, where dozens of high level mages will take exception to your coup, Shade, where you are dealing with a dozen or so Netherese Arcanists in the royal family alone, Silverymoon and Algarond, which are more traditional monarchies where the rulers happen to be epic level mages and Chosen of Mystra, and elven kingdoms, which also tend to be chock full of high and epic level wizards. A decently optimized 15th level wizard might be able to knock over a city state by himself, and probably a fairly small one at that.

Well, there's the Magister, who doesn't rule a country, but beating the current Magister in a mageduel is how you become the new Magister, with the Mystra-granted power that entails.