Helm's Deep force swap: GoT White Walkers

[Balrog]

We'll go with the film/TV version of each considering those are the ones most people would be familiar with.

At the Battle of Helm's Deep, the Uruk-Hai are replaced to an orc with the undead, specifically 10,000 men, women and children who used to be Rohirrim and other various races of Men. They are led by the five White Walkers we see at the battle of Hardhome. Their goal is to overrun the fortress and kill all the Men and Elves within to add to their numbers. The defenders obviously want to live. For purposes of debate, Aragorn has Anduril which mimics the effects of a Valyrian sword, and when he arrives Gandalf the White's magic light beam can similarly destroy the undead.

[Mr Bean]

Is Helms deep ready to deal with -40*F/C temperature?

Something tells me the Rohirrim will not be prepared to deal with the temperature change, undead horde and Walkers ability to drop visibility to almost nothing thanks to white out Blizzard conditions. It's a little tricky dealing wit the undead when your range advantage goes to nothing and the wind is howling directly into your archers faces.

However all of that counts on White Walker Sorcery, if it's just the Wight's the fast frozen zombie corpses the fight is much more even. If the White's are there, the realms of men are dead.

[Thanas]

A good question is whether the wights could stand up to Gandalf.

[Perseid]

Having not seen any of serie 5 of GoT I can't comment about the Wights abilities.

However the battle between 10,000 undead and the defenders of Helms Deep would be a stalemate. The undead have no way to get in (discounting the wights), and unless the defenders start using fire arrows (and lots of them) the only useful weapon is Anduril.

If the wights have some way to make a hole in the defences then Helms Deep will fall before Gandalf gets there.

[Perseid]

Ahh, just come back and re read what I put and I realised that when I've said Wights I should have said White Walkers... d'oh

[Elheru Aran]

*sigh* well, I guess that's spoiled a bit of season 5 for me...

Anyway. What magic, if any, do the White Walkers demonstrate in the series apart from a.) animating dead (or not-dead) people as wights, and b.) conjuring deep freezes? I suppose the ice weapons could be considered magic too but they're more of a passive magic than active as far as I know...

Are the wights capable of using weapons? Can they be ordered around by the Walkers or are they merely shambling zombies? If they can be directed, they could potentially simply pile themselves up to build a ramp of bodies; one imagines there would still be enough left to overrun Helm's Deep with ease even if it takes half their force. If they can pick up a battering ram, they could go at the gates like the Uruk-hai did. But if they're just zombies, then it's up to the Walkers.

Being able to cause a deep freeze, though, could turn the battle in their favour. Rohirrim are probably accustomed to winters... but a Game of Thrones style Long Winter deep freeze? That'd be another matter. We are talking an environment where the simple act of venturing outdoors is taking your life in your hands in an entirely more serious fashion. That's a cold which is capable of rendering materials more fragile than usual, freezing water supplies, preventing people from keeping watch on top of exposed walls and towers, etc... Nasty stuff.

[Captain Seafort]

Being able to cause a deep freeze, though, could turn the battle in their favour. Rohirrim are probably accustomed to winters... but a Game of Thrones style Long Winter deep freeze? That'd be another matter. We are talking an environment where the simple act of venturing outdoors is taking your life in your hands in an entirely more serious fashion. That's a cold which is capable of rendering materials more fragile than usual, freezing water supplies, preventing people from keeping watch on top of exposed walls and towers, etc... Nasty stuff.

The Hornburg has survived sieges in such conditions before, including the one that gave Helm's Deep it's name. The story of Helm's death is that he went out one night to inspect the guard posts, and was found standing on the ramparts the next morning, frozen solid.

[Elheru Aran]

Being able to cause a deep freeze, though, could turn the battle in their favour. Rohirrim are probably accustomed to winters... but a Game of Thrones style Long Winter deep freeze? That'd be another matter. We are talking an environment where the simple act of venturing outdoors is taking your life in your hands in an entirely more serious fashion. That's a cold which is capable of rendering materials more fragile than usual, freezing water supplies, preventing people from keeping watch on top of exposed walls and towers, etc... Nasty stuff.

The Hornburg has survived sieges in such conditions before, including the one that gave Helm's Deep it's name. The story of Helm's death is that he went out one night to inspect the guard posts, and was found standing on the ramparts the next morning, frozen solid.

Emphasis added to the quote. That's not an endorsement for actually *winning*

EDIT to add: That's a good point, though, to illustrate that such bitter winters have been known previously. If the Rohirrim have actually experienced such in recent memory, they may be able to handle it, perhaps by lining the ramparts with fire-pots (convenient for fire-arrows and dumping on the occasional cluster of opponents below the wall).

[FaxModem1]

The White Walkers, for whatever reason, take five years wandering around aimlessly, and the people of Helm's Deep have five years to get ready, and are thus able to make defenses that are able to fight White Walkers.

That's the thing about the White Walkers, they spend most of their time being secluded, and not attacking humans until they either deem themselves ready, it's cold enough for them to be comfortable, or they're waiting for enough political uncertainty in the region that men won't be a threat. Since this doesn't really have a chance of happening in Middle Earth, the White Walkers are more likely to just bugger off and leave the people at Helm's Deep alone for a long time.

That's the big problem with the TV version of the White Walkers, they were on the march all the way back in season 2, but they disappeared shortly after that, meaning they either got lost, or quickly changed their minds about marching.

[Crazedwraith]

Or its not actually been as long as you think in-universe. Despite the actors not co-operating and actually aging.

[Elheru Aran]

Or its not actually been as long as you think in-universe. Despite the actors not co-operating and actually aging.

Isn't the timeline really wonky in the TV show... Danyerys is taking like a couple of years on her end, while Westeros is only occupying maybe six months thus far from the start?

[Simon_Jester]

Remind me again which plots in Westeros 'have' to take place within a six month time span?

[streetad]

Back in S2 the WW's were only marching against the 300 or so nights watch guys that were poking around their domain. They destroyed them, harried the survivors back to the wall and then went off to do whatever it is white walkers do when not raising corpse armies to attack the living. There's nothing to suggest that same army has been slowly marching south for the last three years. They made no attempt to stop Mance Rayder trying to force his way through the wall which suggests they either weren't strong enough yet or were hoping he might leave the gate open. Or perhaps they are waiting for winter?

Back on topic the Wights do not appear to use weapons but can be directed to do things like 'jump over that cliff to circumvent the defensive walls' or 'stand around looking intimidating whilst I have a stand-off with the enemy leader'. They haven't demonstrated anything more than the ability to follow simple instructions however there is evidence that they remember some things from their past lives such as 'where the Lord Commander's bedroom is'.

Without the WWs and their magic I don't think they can breach the walls and its just a matter of sitting tight until Gandalf arrives. Otherwise it becomes more unquantifiable as it depends on what exactly the WWs can do....

[Vendetta]

Remind me again which plots in Westeros 'have' to take place within a six month time span?

Everything so far has happened in the space of two and half to three years. Ridiculously nerdy timeline.

That's the big problem with the TV version of the White Walkers, they were on the march all the way back in season 2, but they disappeared shortly after that, meaning they either got lost, or quickly changed their minds about marching.

They've been waiting for Winter.

Remember that the seasons of Westeros are not the normal natural ones we're used to. The period of the books is set at the end of a summer which has lasted for a decade, and when Winter comes it too can last for years.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, my point was that someone before me had said that the events of the TV series had all taken place within, oh, six months or so... and I was wondering how we knew that, assuming it's true.

[Elheru Aran]

It was an ass-pull. Sorry for any confusion.

[Replicant]

So Aragorn's blade can kill.

What about the elves? I seriously doubt the Elven contingent is walking around with generic weapons. I am guessing each of them is decked out in weapons and armor made over the centuries by the master smiths of the elves. They might not all be carrying the equal of Beater and Biter, but these are not normal weapons either.

The elves may wipe the dead from the field.

Also the elves are there because they were sent. So unless the foes are a complete surprise you have to expect that the Lords of the Elves would not send their troops if this was a death trap. What wins out? The power of Galadriel and her ring or the power of the White Walkers? Can Galadriel keep the Walkers from controlling the weather and at least offset them?

[The Romulan Republic]

I think getting Galadriel's magic directly involved (as opposed to her simply sending a contingent of archers) is outside the parameters set by the OP. But then its already given Aragorn Anduril (he didn't have it for Helm's Deep in the film), so why not?

That said, if the elvish contingent thinks to use flaming arrows (which Perseid mentioned as being a way to fight the White Walkers earlier), then that's potentially hundreds of superhumanly fast and accurate archers raining fire on the enemy.

Depending on weather they know/think to use fire, it could be an easy slaughter one way or the other.

[Raw Shark]

So far, in the books at least, we haven't seen any particular vulnerability to fire among the white walkers, only to obsidian and Valyrian steel. Fire kills wights, which are something else entirely (basically zombies).

[Perseid]

So far, in the books at least, we haven't seen any particular vulnerability to fire among the white walkers, only to obsidian and Valyrian steel. Fire kills wights, which are something else entirely (basically zombies).

Well if Anduril mimics Valyrian steel then Aragorn is potentially the only person who can deal with the WW, though given that there are only 5 that might be either too easy or too much for him alone. The fire arrows will work on the 10,000 wights.

Really it's going to come down to whether the WW can get through the curtain wall/gate, and whether Elven or Dwarven steel will have the same effect as Valyrian steel. If they can hurt the WW then it's an easy victory, if they think to use fire arrows and the WW can't get past the wall then it's a stalemate until Gandalf arrives with his magic light beam. It's only if the WW and wights can get past the wall that things become problematic, with a phyric victory being the end result when Gandalf and the Rohirrim arrive.

[Solauren]

White Walker options

#1 - Massive wave of snow and ice. We've seen what that does in Season 5.
#2 - 10,000 Wights don't care if they get shot up, and we've seen those fuckers are reasonably mobile, and strong. Wight-Pyramid and they start pooring into the keep

[Ahriman238]

For people who haven't been keeping up with the show (my season 5 is mostly snippets off youtube) here's the Battle of Hardhome in Two Parts.

Should give you a better idea for the Others' capabilities in this vs.

[Perseid]

For people who haven't been keeping up with the show (my season 5 is mostly snippets off youtube) here's the Battle of Hardhome in Two Parts.

Should give you a better idea for the Others' capabilities in this vs.

I admit that does show how effective the Others' and the wights are, however obviously there are many differences between Helms Deep and Hardhome. I imagine that the simply fact that there are stone walls and iron gates would make it much harder to crack comparitively.

White Walker options

#1 - Massive wave of snow and ice. We've seen what that does in Season 5.

Yep this would cause a few problems, though it's no guaruntee that they'll get through the deeping wall or even into the keep itself.

#2 - 10,000 Wights don't care if they get shot up, and we've seen those fuckers are reasonably mobile, and strong. Wight-Pyramid and they start pooring into the keep

I admit that they won't care about getting shot with arrows, however we're talking about a keep here. It's likely, though we don't see it in the films or the books, that there is the means to make use of traditional siege defences like boiling oil. A pyramid would work fairly well, however theres nothing stopping the defenders from throwing rocks down onto the climbers (this was done in the books so the resource is there), crush several until someone comes up with a better solution. Also we're talking about experienced commanders (Theoden, Aragorn, and if we go with the books Eomer) with, hopefully, some sense so masses of fire arrows might start coming into use.

Though as I've said, the White Walkers are the game changers and challenge to eliminate.

[Replicant]

Watched that fight at Hardhome.

The snow and wind was not enough to affect arrow flight, nor give enough cover to matter.

The zombie horde is pretty fast but the zombies needed major number advantage to beat anyone moderately talented with a blade.

Finally the horde took quite a while to breach poorly built and rather old wooden stockades, which will not work with Helms Deep.

[Korgeta]

Healm's deep has the height advantage, its also very strong and withstood traditional means of sieging from a more armoured and stronger foe, it took gunpowder to turn the tables significantly.

Even if Healm's Deep never had recorded winter in the book (and am too lazy to get it off the shelf and read it) it's location in the film would be freezing during the winter periods or in general, including as there next to a mountain.

If the zombie hoard tried striking from the main front they would be decimated, even if the elves weren't there (who are highly skilled and fire further then any man) the enemy would still break on the walls. With the defenders having a reasonably means of defence and slowing any numbers if broke through. And unlike the defeders of hardhome, there are troops, as well as some civs who are equipped with armor and shields made to smash any enemy in the face hard.

In comparison 'Hardhome' is a settlement area, it has no features, uphill ground, stone walls or places where troops can defend and utilize a counter attack. Healms deep would be a rude awakening for the WW.

That's not to say healms deep is impossible for WW army, one thing they have going is that their basically a puppet army and will keep going regardless of how many bones are broken, from physically bashing a gate till its broken to digging away to they get there, there resilience is a major factor. There is no reason why the WW army can't climb the mountain that healm's deep has its back to and literally 'drop in' instead of striking the front, then its a case of using sheer numbers to wear away the defence.