Hulkbuster Iron Man vs Greater Daemon of Khorne

[GuppyShark]

Kojiro - Agree with all of what you've written.

Irbis - 'Skilled if unsubtle' generals is a description I am comfortable with. Presumably their battle planning is competent in the 'use the right tool for the job' sense.

[Elheru Aran]

IIRC.

The Titan-on-Terminator incident was a Warhound Titan-- one of the smallest-- and the Terminator was a Space Wolf (without helmet, no less). His armour was cracked, but the suggestion was that he was capable of going on fighting as he hollers at some gawking Guard to get a move on or some such. It's in one of those sidebars in some White Dwarf supplement or something.

Khorne Daemons are largely a bunch focused on melee. If Stark incorporated some ranged repulsors or missiles into the Hulkbuster suit (exploding rocket-fist?), he could gain some advantage there as long as he can stay out of its whip's reach. Of course, the Warp being what it is, if the bloodthirster has enough mojo, he could magic up a super-bolter or some such...

[GuppyShark]

The Hulkbuster still has the palm repulsors and flight capability.

[Elheru Aran]

The Hulkbuster still has the palm repulsors and flight capability.

Bloodthirsters can fly. What was the range on those palm repulsors again? I don't think we ever see them at more than 20, 30 feet or so...

[Kojiro]

What was the range on those palm repulsors again? I don't think we ever see them at more than 20, 30 feet or so...

In the first Iron Man when we see him take out the Jericho missiles his altimeter says he's hovering at about 85 somethings. Assuming that's feet and he's firing at an angle the MK3 repulsors have at least a good hundred foot range. I would assume the Hulkbuster equipped ones are at least as powerful, likely more given their scaled up size. Whether or not they hurt the daemon is still dubious however.

I think Guppy is probably right, the Hulkbuster is extremely specialised for a particular task. I have think Stark could probably build a suit with enough firepower to drop a 'thirster. The suit designed for close combat though is a poor choice against 40Ks most deadly melee combatant.

[Block]

Well, don't forget that the runes on their armor make Bloodthirsters immune to non-Psyk based ranged weapons. So Stark would have to win in melee.

[GuppyShark]

Rules mechanics are not typically considered valid in vs debates. Otherwise all he needs to do is Frenzy bait the thirster off the table with a chaff suit

[Block]

That's in the fluff though, not a rule.

[GuppyShark]

That's ludicrous. You could hit a Bloodthirster with the Death Star and he'd be sitting there in space yelling at you?

[Purple]

That's ludicrous. You could hit a Bloodthirster with the Death Star and he'd be sitting there in space yelling at you?

Probably yes. If you applied enough non telepathic damage you would presumably blow up its physical shape and thus force it back into the warp or some such. But it would still be alive and capable of manifesting in some new body after a while.

[Vendetta]

That's ludicrous. You could hit a Bloodthirster with the Death Star and he'd be sitting there in space yelling at you?

Probably not. Most seriously big (titan grade) weapons can still threaten them, it's just smaller stuff like tanks they don't care about.

Of course, you wouldn't actually kill it, just send it back to the warp and it might take it a few centuries to reform.

[Purple]

Or seconds. Time in the warp is... not what we are used to it being.

[Elheru Aran]

Or seconds. Time in the warp is... not what we are used to it being.

It depends. If you do your job right, you can actually force warp creatures to obey ordinary time. In a Grey Knights novel, a daemon was banned for an explicit thousand years, and it took it that long to make its way back. In terms of actual action, you don't typically have to deal with the same daemon immediately after you've banished it from realspace, since they've been injured and shamed enough by their defeat that they have to work their way back. This is especially true if it's something as prestigious as a Bloodthirster-- losing a fight for one of those is a major embarrassment.

[Purple]

Sure, but somehow I doubt anyone in this setting has the tools or knowledge to do the job right. Hell, if what ever way this thing got in stays open I can imagine other demons coming through to test them self against the champion who took down this one.

[Block]

Or seconds. Time in the warp is... not what we are used to it being.

It depends. If you do your job right, you can actually force warp creatures to obey ordinary time. In a Grey Knights novel, a daemon was banned for an explicit thousand years, and it took it that long to make its way back. In terms of actual action, you don't typically have to deal with the same daemon immediately after you've banished it from realspace, since they've been injured and shamed enough by their defeat that they have to work their way back. This is especially true if it's something as prestigious as a Bloodthirster-- losing a fight for one of those is a major embarrassment.

True, but he was also banished by the Grey Knights, who are ridiculously powerful psykers.

[Elheru Aran]

Sure, but somehow I doubt anyone in this setting has the tools or knowledge to do the job right. Hell, if what ever way this thing got in stays open I can imagine other demons coming through to test them self against the champion who took down this one.

^ That's more like it.

True, but he was also banished by the Grey Knights, who are ridiculously powerful psykers.

Granted. However, I can't say I've ever read about anybody actually killing (as opposed to temporarily crippling or injuring and then it's all 'Gotcha') a daemon and then it comes back on them immediately. So it seems like there's some sort of limitation. Of course, Chaos doesn't *have* to play by the rules...

[Block]

I think it'd have to be on something like a Daemon world for that to happen. Otherwise, yeah I'd assume they'd have to be resummoned, which takes time.

[Elheru Aran]

I think it'd have to be on something like a Daemon world for that to happen. Otherwise, yeah I'd assume they'd have to be resummoned, which takes time.

DERP. I'd totally forgotten about daemons not existing naturally in our reality. Of course that's why they don't just pop right back. Yeah, unless they're pretty powerful or otherwise exceptional, they do need to be re-summoned. Daemon worlds are natural gateways to the Warp so that's a revolving door, but not regular worlds.

[Lord Revan]

I think it'd have to be on something like a Daemon world for that to happen. Otherwise, yeah I'd assume they'd have to be resummoned, which takes time.

DERP. I'd totally forgotten about daemons not existing naturally in our reality. Of course that's why they don't just pop right back. Yeah, unless they're pretty powerful or otherwise exceptional, they do need to be re-summoned. Daemon worlds are natural gateways to the Warp so that's a revolving door, but not regular worlds.

actually if I interpeted the Codex corrrectly it actually takes more effort to break into real space the stronger the daemon is. For greater daemons to appear on their own will and without assist means things are bad as the planet you're on is essentially pulled into the warp.

[Kojiro]

actually if I interpeted the Codex corrrectly it actually takes more effort to break into real space the stronger the daemon is. For greater daemons to appear on their own will and without assist means things are bad as the planet you're on is essentially pulled into the warp.

More or less this is correct. There'a a minimum amount of relevant psychic energy required to get a greater daemon to appear and thus they appear at a minimum power level. Stuff like the proper ritual, the daemons true name or a psyker conduit can all make this easier.

Of course that this means is that fighting against a Khornate army should be virtually impossible, as the more blood spilled on either side should result in any daemons present being reinforced. Sure your marines did just murder all 500 of those cultists/PDF troops but alas there was some crazy priest up the back and look what he's turning into...

Indeed one of the more laughable tabletop interactions at the moment is to use a cheap psyker to summon a greater daemon. Sure it kills your psyker but so what? And of course the ultimate in 'did not playtest' using a greater daemon that is badly wounded to summon (killing the wounded one) a fresh greater daemon.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Indeed...we had such a summoning situation at the weekend. The Ork player had a couple of Weird Boyz that he used to summon a pair of Bloodthirsters.

Luckily for us Space Marines one of us was playing Grey Knights so it wasn't too much trouble to put them down again.

[Purple]

Since when can orks summon chaos demons?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Since weird boyz, as psykers, could roll on the Demonology tables for their psychic powers.

Incidentally, the "roll for random psychic powers" is a mechanic I really dislike, and I don't even use bloody psykers, because I considered them too unreliable before this crap came along.

[Simon_Jester]

Which reminds me, if Hulk appears in 40k does he get appointed an honorary ork?

If course that this means is that fighting against a Khornate army should be virtually impossible, as the more blood spilled on either side should result in any daemons present being reinforced. Sure your marines did just murder all 500 of those cultists/PDF troops but alas there was some crazy priest up the back and look what he's turning into...

That... actually tends to happen, if you go by the novels. It's one of the reasons why lunatic cultists who have an edged-weapon fetish can be effective and conquer their enemies. The cultists die, but they really are launching banzai charges they know are suicidal as an act of voluntary necromancy, so their side may win anyway.

[Kojiro]

Since when can orks summon chaos demons?

The current 40k rules are an absolute mess. The initial release gave Daemonology to every single faction except Grey Knights. So yes, your eldar farseer could summon a Keeper of Secrets. And of course lesser daemon groups count as psykers so they too can summon. In fact along with summoning a greater daemon entire units of lesser daemons can be summoned. I believe this is an early battle report in which they guy starts with 30 or so lesser daemons and ends the game summoning 30-40 more in that turn.

Some cynical people have suggested it's a naked cash grab, letting every army have free units. But they also think that using the new Space Marine Battle Company formation (2 HQ, up to 6 tactical, 2 assault and 2 devastator units) is a naked cash grab, just because it gives you ten free razorback transports.

That... actually tends to happen, if you go by the novels. It's one of the reasons why lunatic cultists who have an edged-weapon fetish can be effective and conquer their enemies. The cultists die, but they really are launching banzai charges they know are suicidal as an act of voluntary necromancy, so their side may win anyway.

Oh I know. You've got to assume when Horus assaulted Terra that the Khorne forces. I really did like the old Space Marine (Epic 1st Ed) Daemon rules. They were based on awesomeness like how many units you killed, how many of them were living models or how many units you made take morale checks. All in all it was terribly clunky but as a 12 year old it was awesome.

And I think Hulk would rather quickly fall to Khorne, though orks would find him immensely fun.