Hulkbuster Iron Man vs Greater Daemon of Khorne

[Kojiro]

Agreed. Then again, in a fight between a bloodthirster and a primarch the primarch pretty much invariably wins. Sometimes easily, sometimes not so easily...

Sanguinius' first encounter with a Bloodthirster on Signus Prime did not go so well for the primarch. I would say any fight you end unconscious while your enemy wanders off to slay several hundred of your marines is a fight you lost. That Sanguinius opened up it's chest and then it beat him down is a testament to their power and durability.

there is reason to think that not all bloodthirsters are created equal, and that some daemons of the same basic 'type' are inherently older and stronger and bigger than the 'rank and file' of that 'type.'

This is true, they do range in power and size from 15 feet up to scout titan size. Though to be technical I would say they are created equal, at a base level, but then elevate themselves via combat. I suppose Balrog would have to further stipulate.

That's in his armor, I assume?

Of course. But the point is that 40k weapons are pretty lethal. If you're 15ft tall and make no attempt to hide yourself on such a battlefield you'd damn well better be made of or wearing something tough. Bloodthirsters are unique in that they wear armour specifically warded against magic and ranged attacks (in addition to their natural demonic resistances) though so it's reasonable to assume they're at least resistant to 40k weapons.

[Eternal_Freedom]

[
Of course. But the point is that 40k weapons are pretty lethal. If you're 15ft tall and make no attempt to hide yourself on such a battlefield you'd damn well better be made of or wearing something tough. Bloodthirsters are unique in that they wear armour specifically warded against magic and ranged attacks (in addition to their natural demonic resistances) though so it's reasonable to assume they're at least resistant to 40k weapons.

To expand on this for reference; an autogun, as wielded by Planetary Defence Forces in the Imperium is basically a futurised M16, and that's considered one of the crappiest infantry guns available.

[Lord Revan]

[
Of course. But the point is that 40k weapons are pretty lethal. If you're 15ft tall and make no attempt to hide yourself on such a battlefield you'd damn well better be made of or wearing something tough. Bloodthirsters are unique in that they wear armour specifically warded against magic and ranged attacks (in addition to their natural demonic resistances) though so it's reasonable to assume they're at least resistant to 40k weapons.

To expand on this for reference; an autogun, as wielded by Planetary Defence Forces in the Imperium is basically a futurised M16, and that's considered one of the crappiest infantry guns available.

IIRC Autoguns are considered inferior to lasguns which are relatively speaking so weak that they're joked to be flashlights.

[InsaneTD]

Yet, they are supposedly powerful enough to blow chunks out of concrete the size of a man's head. Or at least described that way in several stories. Though that does tend to be older stories. The new stuff tends to play to the meta floating around the game of them being [redacted by =][= order].

[GuppyShark]

Establishing that infantry in 40k run around with the same weapons as infantry in our universe establishes what, exactly?

[Elheru Aran]

That's actually the *minimum* for them. *Normally* they run around with *more* powerful weapons, is the point.

[GuppyShark]

So do ours. M16s are not anti-tank weapons.

[Lord Revan]

So do ours. M16s are not anti-tank weapons.

neither are Bolters or Plasma guns yet those those are fairly common in Imperial Guard units (or at least used to be), the point was that weapons that fill the same role as M-16 are normally alot more powerful then M-16

[Elheru Aran]

So do ours. M16s are not anti-tank weapons.

neither are Bolters or Plasma guns yet those those are fairly common in Imperial Guard units (or at least used to be), the point was that weapons that fill the same role as M-16 are normally alot more powerful then M-16

This. To draw a more correct analogy, it's as though the Imperial Guard carries full-automatic .50 caliber rifles as their standard weapon, versus the (comparative) peashooter that's the .223 M16.

[Simon_Jester]

More generally... "Bolters" that fire grenade rounds on full automatic, pretty damn big grenade rounds too, are not a credible threat to even the least powerful Bloodthirsters in 40k. So hosing one down with a stream of automatic grenade launcher fire will not even seriously inconvenience one.

Of course the Hulk can pretty much entirely ignore small arms fire, and appears to find .50 caliber machine gun rounds annoying and itchy based on his reaction between 4:00 and 5:00 of the video I just linked. 40mm grenades at least make him stumble and cause enough discomfort that he picks up a piece of scrap metal to use as a shield but I don't see any sign that they actually wound him.

We do not see Hulk hit with antitank rocket launchers or the like, which would be the logical next step up in firepower, at least not in this scene (kind of an oversight on General Ross's part, no?). But I think the evidence suggests that the Hulk might well actually be able to handle hits from 40k infantry weapons as well as a Bloodthirster, at least after he's had some time to get properly enraged.

EDIT: The ultrasonic weapons on the Humvees at around 6:00 don't seem to cause Hulk any physical injury either, although they certainly cause lots of ear-pain and disorientation. Getting clocked by a crashing helicopter, likewise, seems to be pretty much okay and walks it off.

[Lord Revan]

More generally... "Bolters" that fire grenade rounds on full automatic, pretty damn big grenade rounds too, are not a credible threat to even the least powerful Bloodthirsters in 40k. So hosing one down with a stream of automatic grenade launcher fire will not even seriously inconvenience one.

Of course the Hulk can pretty much entirely ignore small arms fire, and appears to find .50 caliber machine gun rounds annoying and itchy based on his reaction between 4:00 and 5:00 of the video I just linked. 40mm grenades at least make him stumble and cause enough discomfort that he picks up a piece of scrap metal to use as a shield but I don't see any sign that they actually wound him.

We do not see Hulk hit with antitank rocket launchers or the like, which would be the logical next step up in firepower, at least not in this scene (kind of an oversight on General Ross's part, no?). But I think the evidence suggests that the Hulk might well actually be able to handle hits from 40k infantry weapons as well as a Bloodthirster, at least after he's had some time to get properly enraged.

the thing about Bloodthirsters is that to take one out even semi relibly without "holy" weapons (well to take any greater daemon out) you need WH40K level Anti-tank weapons, and IIRC MCU Hulk's strenght is on/off and he doesn't get stronger the angrier he gets.

Also we should remember that while insanely powerful Bloodthirsters are not mindless berserkers but really strong (and in some cases intelligent) warriors that fight for the sake of fighting and thus can adapt tactics to counter enemies that are closer to their power level

[Kojiro]

Also we should remember that while insanely powerful Bloodthirsters are not mindless berserkers but really strong (and in some cases intelligent) warriors that fight for the sake of fighting and thus can adapt tactics to counter enemies that are closer to their power level

Let's not forget where the Hulk is all berserker rage, Bloodthirsters are martial paragons of skill and discipline. If nothing else Stark will be completely outclassed in terms of combat skill. Combine that with the almost certainty the Hulkbuster can be damaged and I don't think the 'thirster needs to be as durable as Hulk.

[Lord Revan]

Also we should remember that while insanely powerful Bloodthirsters are not mindless berserkers but really strong (and in some cases intelligent) warriors that fight for the sake of fighting and thus can adapt tactics to counter enemies that are closer to their power level

Let's not forget where the Hulk is all berserker rage, Bloodthirsters are martial paragons of skill and discipline. If nothing else Stark will be completely outclassed in terms of combat skill. Combine that with the almost certainty the Hulkbuster can be damaged and I don't think the 'thirster needs to be as durable as Hulk.

Yeah the thing is that I didn't want to be seen to oversell the threat of Bloodthirster poses so I intentionally undersold it

Another thing to point out however is that unlike the Hulk, Bloodthirster can fly under their own power.

[Irbis]

Yeah meant to specify it's a 40K Bloodthirster, with all the strengths and weaknesses you would expect of a "generic" daemon (or as generic as you can get with a denizen of the Warp).

There is no such thing as "generic" Bloodthirster. Rather, in new fluff they are arranges in circles, 8 weak ones serving stronger one, circles arrayed 8 deep (it being holy number of their god and all). Bottom tier one is barely stronger than Space Marine heroes, upper tier like Anggrath or Skarbrand can pretty much make whole planet go insane with rage with single roar. So you need to establish what level you mean, exactly.

That being said, unless Stark manages to not get into melee range, he will have big problems. Even weakest Bloodthirster can cleave terminator armour (pinnacle of WH super-heavy infantry armour) like wet paper and you need supernatural wards or power fields to stand any chance against a hit. Then, there is the fact Bloodthirsters strike at initiative and weapon skill that dwarf that of even millennia old galaxy-wide known Space Marine heroes, so unless Stark somehow managed to compete with that, well...

But, frankly, the problem with daemons is the fact they really should be unbeatable as written, as they laugh at human guns and mock laws of physics, yet Space Marines (or even IG troopers...) somehow can beat them most of the time. Though, this usually involves drowning it in bodies and/or bullets. If the daemon has weak connection to reality, even a few blows will banish it, if not (or if it can pile skulls/maim/burn fast enough) you can forget it.

Isn't the Ganges holy in Hinduism? Yes, quite a trip if they start out in New York, but a hell of a lot of holy water

More like, a hell of a lot of so tainted water it will turn it into daemon of Nurgle

[Enigma]

How about Hulk in his peak versus a high end Bloodthirster?

[GuppyShark]

So do ours. M16s are not anti-tank weapons.

neither are Bolters or Plasma guns yet those those are fairly common in Imperial Guard units (or at least used to be), the point was that weapons that fill the same role as M-16 are normally alot more powerful then M-16

Hydra goons are packing rayguns too, so this isn't really a point of differentiation between the settings. We don't use 5.56 because it's awesome, we use it because it is all you need to cause a casualty.

I think the problem with using the Hulkbuster armour as an example is that it is actually not Starks' best suit. The Hulkbuster was designed and built for one specific task - to subdue the Hulk1. That entails being able to dish out and sustain enormous amounts of blunt force trauma. It sacrifices its mobility and general purpose utility to achieve this task. If the Hulkbuster was actually a better general purpose combat suit, he would be using it more often. The compromises made to strengthen it to the expected battering he would take would weaken it against penetrating attacks etc.

Bloodthirsters are martial paragons of skill and discipline.

Wait, what?

I have never read any passage ever that describes Khornate demons as disciplined, intelligent or patient. They are berserkers.

"Khorne cares not from where the blood flows, only that it flows."



1 If Stark wanted an insurance policy to kill the Hulk it would be metal rods dropped from orbit, not putting himself into harm's way to have a fist fight.

[Kojiro]

Bloodthirsters are martial paragons of skill and discipline.

Wait, what?

I have never read any passage ever that describes Khornate demons as disciplined, intelligent or patient. They are berserkers.

"Nothing, on any of the many battlefields of the war-ridden 41st millennium, can match the fury and fighting prowess of the Greater Daemon of Khorne, the dreaded Bloodthirsters. Not one, not even the Greater Daemons of the other Dark Gods can hope to defeat a Bloodthirster at close quarters. Nowhere, in an entire galaxy of worlds at war can a deadlier opponent be found by glory seeking fools.

Bloodthirsters are the perfect embodiment of Khorne's infinite anger, of his unparalleled martial discipline and of his inextinguishable lust for blood. They are commanders of Khorne's legions, leading them into battle and unleashing the blood-hungry hordes of their master without mercy or compassion, and yet with an implacable tactical efficiency."

[GuppyShark]

I went and checked the Warhammer version to see if I'd just missed something - nope. The Fantasy book is clear that Bloodthirsters in that setting are just killing machines. I guess Khorne just sends the dumb ones there.

[GuppyShark]

Ghetto edit: Cannot find the bit about 'implacable tactical efficiency' on p28 of 6th edition Chaos Demon codex. It paints the same picture of a creature that kills anything 'within reach' and says nothing about their mental faculties.

[Kojiro]

That is from the 6th edition (at least I believe it's the 6th). There is a 7th edition I've discovered which I don't have, and believe me I was as surprised as you to find such an entry in the 6th. I had always taken them for berserkers too, though it's not the first thing GW have changed nor I'm sure will it be the last. That said, I've always pictured them as fearless and furious but not without regard for their own being, like a berserker. Even if only because in dying they must explain their failure to Khorne and why they are not still on the battlefield collecting skulls for their lord. If the bloodthirsters are now mindless berserkers then I hope for Khorne's sake they're not also still leading his armies.

Either way I don't think the Hulkbuster will hold up for very long or do the kind of damage it'd have to in the short time it has. I strongly doubt that the Hulkbuster is significantly more durable than a 40k tank or terminator armour and I know Stark isn't as good a fighter as the thirster.

[GuppyShark]

Probably just a different printing. I found a warseer thread from 2010 that quotes the tactical efficiency thing. I suppose it being omitted from the codex I looked at doesn't mean it's no longer true.

Can a terminator survive a nose dive through a collapsing building? How about a Leman Russ?

[Purple]

Can a terminator survive a nose dive through a collapsing building? How about a Leman Russ?

Probably yes. IIRC there was at least one mention of a terminator being alive after being stepped on by a titan.

[GuppyShark]

I hope it was a beach assault.

[Kojiro]

Probably just a different printing. I found a warseer thread from 2010 that quotes the tactical efficiency thing. I suppose it being omitted from the codex I looked at doesn't mean it's no longer true.

Well I do like the idea that, as generals, they're not completely unthinking bersekers, if only to cause more bloodshed.

Can a terminator survive a nose dive through a collapsing building? How about a Leman Russ?

I think the suit itself would survive such a trip. The marine inside I'm not so sure about however. Stark has some very fancy internal dampeners or something that Terminator armour doesn't possess. But neither of them are even remotely designed to go nosediving through or into anything- they're purely terrestrial. That said in A1 the Hulk 'calms down' after falling a great height, which I'm sure Banner and Stark discussed when designing Veronica as a means of pacification. I wouldn't be surprised if the Hulkbuster was at least partially intended to slam the Hulk into something.

But that durability I don't think will translate so well to stopping an Axe of Khorne, largely because as you mentioned it's not designed to. It's designed to stop blunt force blows from Hulk, not demonically enhanced giant axes.

The titan story takes place supposedly on rubble. The terminator didn't get up and walk it off though, merely survived, wounded.

[Irbis]

I went and checked the Warhammer version to see if I'd just missed something - nope. The Fantasy book is clear that Bloodthirsters in that setting are just killing machines. I guess Khorne just sends the dumb ones there.

WH Fantasy is peanuts compared to 40K. 4 chaos gods there are regularly bested by mortals, in the old books you even had Neanderthal ordering them around...

Probably just a different printing. I found a warseer thread from 2010 that quotes the tactical efficiency thing. I suppose it being omitted from the codex I looked at doesn't mean it's no longer true.

Um, that was what I said was changed recently - you guys want Khorne Daemonkind army book. See for yourself: