Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

FAN: Discuss various fictional worlds that don't qualify for SF.

Moderator: Steve

Post Reply
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Well, I don't much give a damn about shipping, but I doubt we'll be getting any Superman/Wonder Woman in the new DCCU. If anything, they pretty blatantly set up Batman/Wonder Woman.
User avatar
Galvatron
Decepticon Leader
Posts: 6662
Joined: 2002-07-12 12:27am
Location: Kill! Smash! Destroy! Rend! Mangle! Distort!

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Galvatron »

In case anyone is curious about Superman's current strength level in the comics, I just stumbled across this from an issue of the New 52 Superman (issue #13) published back in 2012. I wonder how the DCCU Superman compares.

Image
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by The Romulan Republic »

DCCU Superman is nothing compared to that, obviously. He's knock down skyscrapers strong, not casually move planets strong. Or at least, if he is, there's zero evidence for it on screen.
User avatar
Iroscato
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2359
Joined: 2011-02-07 03:04pm
Location: Great Britain (It's great, honestly!)

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Iroscato »

Yeah, he's nowhere near that level yet. Though I wonder how much his strength is limited by him simply not breaking through his mental barriers and holding back.

Wasn't New 52 Supes originally introduced as being much, much weaker though as well?
Yeah, I've always taken the subtext of the Birther movement to be, "The rules don't count here! This is different! HE'S BLACK! BLACK, I SAY! ARE YOU ALL BLIND!?

- Raw Shark

Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent.

- SirNitram (RIP)
User avatar
Crown
NARF
Posts: 10615
Joined: 2002-07-11 11:45am
Location: In Transit ...

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crown »

Split screen some enterprising person put together showing the Battle of Metropolis/The day the World was Introduced to the Superman;



Whether you love or hated this film, whether it worked or didn't work for you, can we at least agree it was put together by people who cared?
Image
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
User avatar
Galvatron
Decepticon Leader
Posts: 6662
Joined: 2002-07-12 12:27am
Location: Kill! Smash! Destroy! Rend! Mangle! Distort!

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Galvatron »

Chimaera wrote:Wasn't New 52 Supes originally introduced as being much, much weaker though as well?
The post-crisis, 1986 reboot of Superman was. I'm not sure about the New 52 version, but it obviously didn't take long for them power him back up to damn near silver age levels.
User avatar
Enigma
is a laughing fool.
Posts: 7777
Joined: 2003-04-30 10:24pm
Location: c nnyhjdyt yr 45

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Enigma »

Not even All Star Superman is that strong. I believe he was able to lift an equivalent of a few quintillion tons.
ASVS('97)/SDN('03)

"Whilst human alchemists refer to the combustion triangle, some of their orcish counterparts see it as more of a hexagon: heat, fuel, air, laughter, screaming, fun." Dawn of the Dragons

ASSCRAVATS!
EnterpriseSovereign
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3987
Joined: 2006-05-12 12:19pm
Location: High orbit

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Just for shits and giggles:
Link
User avatar
Crown
NARF
Posts: 10615
Joined: 2002-07-11 11:45am
Location: In Transit ...

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crown »

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:Just for shits and giggles:
Link
That's pretty hilarious, I like the way it manages to mock both the film itself and some of the most absurd criticisms of it. It remind's me of Seinfeld's "The Outing" which managed to achieve the same thing with homophobia and political correctness in a way.
Image
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by The Romulan Republic »

As I posted in the Captain America: Civil War thread, I think that their are a lot of similarities between that film and this one. Both are about big crossover vs. fights, both are somewhat messy, muddled films (in part due to how they try to fit so many characters in), and both have somewhat muddled and contrived reasons for the heroes to fight. The set up and character motivations could have been handled better.

But I honestly think Batman V Superman is probably the stronger film, for two main reasons:

1. It appears less inclined to endorse unaccountable vigilantism as the right answer.
2. It feels more epic and carries more emotional weight, in part, perhaps, because their is more of a sense of actual consequences (see Superman's death).

I don't consider either an unambiguously top tier superhero movie (my all-time favourite in the genre remains The Dark Knight), but yeah, DC finally beat Marvel at their own game, in my opinion.

Edit: And yeah, I know Superman's death almost certainly isn't permanent. But it still feels significant.
Crazedwraith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11862
Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
Location: Cheshire, England

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crazedwraith »

1. I'm not sure a film centing on Batman can be called against vigilantism. People were scared of superman because of his god like power. An unaccountable vigilante like batman was a-okay as far as we can tell.(batsignal indicates his relstionship with police is intact in dceu.)
2. Superman is coming back so that had little impact for me. More like an eyeroll. 'Oh so you are cribbing notes from Death of superman as well as DKR? Cool guys.'
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Yes, you could argue Batman is an endorsement of vigilantism, of course, but at the same time, the film shows Batman as a deeply flawed man who has gotten carried away with his vendettas and started crossing his own moral lines. It takes the revelation about Superman's mother, the knowledge that Luther played him, and the death of Superman to shock him back to his senses.

And the Congresswoman trying to hold Superman accountable was portrayed quite sympathetically. More broadly, I felt that their was a real debate about the consequences of a being like Superman (and given his powers, and the powers of his foes, you really could make a case that he is above human law).

I loved the scene, as well, where Superman arrives at Capitol Hill, because that was basically him saying "I could be a god, but I am choosing to submit myself to human law and government of my own free will."

As to Superman's return... yeah, I can see what you mean. But at the same time, the impact his death had on the people around him, the sense of real loss in events like the destruction of the Capitol and Metropolis being attacked by Zod... it just felt like the consequences carried more weight to me.
Crazedwraith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11862
Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
Location: Cheshire, England

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crazedwraith »

And yet, I'll wager that Batman, Wonder Woman and the Justice League will continue without any government supervision in the sequels. The closest thing the Government has to supervision is the bombs implanted to the Suicide Squad.

The Congress scene was good. Aside from Luthor miraculously shitting all Capitol Hill's security. I would have liked to Superman to actually make his speech to Congress before the bomb went off though.

The impact thing is a matter of personal taste but the destruction was a bit undermined to me by the repeated statements it was happening in abandoned districts with no-one to get hurt. (obviously the absolve the heroes of the same issues that beset the end of MoS in the eyes of fans)
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Crazedwraith wrote:And yet, I'll wager that Batman, Wonder Woman and the Justice League will continue without any government supervision in the sequels. The closest thing the Government has to supervision is the bombs implanted to the Suicide Squad.
That may turn out to be the case, though the DCCU thus far has spent enough time actually discussing the social, moral, and political implications of their heroes that I at least hope that the issue won't be just ignored.

Of course, it may also be the case that the threats the Justice League will face will be so far beyond the governments' ability to handle that they really are effectively impotent. Vigilantism becomes a hell of a lot more justified in a hypothetical where the government is completely useless and a state of anarchy effectively exists.
The Congress scene was good. Aside from Luthor miraculously shitting all Capitol Hill's security. I would have liked to Superman to actually make his speech to Congress before the bomb went off though.
I would have too.

But as to the security... I don't know how tight the Capitol's security is, but how thoroughly are they going to search a rich, well-connected CEO with government contracts like Luthor and his staff/guests?

Normally they're worried about things like jihadis and lone nuts, not someone from the Fortune 500.

Luther's plan did get a bit ridiculous, though.
The impact thing is a matter of personal taste but the destruction was a bit undermined to me by the repeated statements it was happening in abandoned districts with no-one to get hurt. (obviously the absolve the heroes of the same issues that beset the end of MoS in the eyes of fans)
There was a lot of collateral damage earlier in the film. The final showdown avoided it, but I rather liked that, actually. That Batman consciously maneuvered the battle onto unpopulated territory fit with his motivations in the film and underscored his role as the Justice League strategist.

And I don't remember it being really heavy-handed. I only really recall one mention of it, actually, though there might have been others.

Edit: I also like that, after initially fighting Doomsday in the city, Superman tried to fly him into space, away from the city. It showed that he had learned from the fight in Metropolis, and had become a more skilled combatant.
User avatar
Galvatron
Decepticon Leader
Posts: 6662
Joined: 2002-07-12 12:27am
Location: Kill! Smash! Destroy! Rend! Mangle! Distort!

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Galvatron »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Edit: I also like that, after initially fighting Doomsday in the city, Superman tried to fly him into space, away from the city. It showed that he had learned from the fight in Metropolis, and had become a more skilled combatant.
Well, Zod could fly so Superman's options were more limited. Doomsday apparently couldn't, so flying him into space could have effectively neutralized him as a threat if the military hadn't fucking nuked them both.
User avatar
Crown
NARF
Posts: 10615
Joined: 2002-07-11 11:45am
Location: In Transit ...

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crown »

Galvatron wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:Edit: I also like that, after initially fighting Doomsday in the city, Superman tried to fly him into space, away from the city. It showed that he had learned from the fight in Metropolis, and had become a more skilled combatant.
Well, Zod could fly so Superman's options were more limited. Doomsday apparently couldn't, so flying him into space could have effectively neutralized him as a threat if the military hadn't fucking nuked them both.
Zod was in control for 90% of that fight anyway ("Where did you learn to fight ... on a farm?") and when Superman gets some of the advantage Zod retreats.
Image
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
User avatar
Crown
NARF
Posts: 10615
Joined: 2002-07-11 11:45am
Location: In Transit ...

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crown »

Ultimate Cut trailer is up;



The hype is real! :mrgreen: :luv:
Image
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
Crazedwraith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11862
Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
Location: Cheshire, England

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crazedwraith »

Huh. Well that is something. I cant remember many times where 'there is totally a better cut thats coming out on dvd!' Was true. I wonder if DotFP's Rogue cut did really well?

And it is cool they are leading with it rather than trying to get everyone to buy the rdgular editiion first.
User avatar
Crown
NARF
Posts: 10615
Joined: 2002-07-11 11:45am
Location: In Transit ...

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crown »

Crazedwraith wrote:Huh. Well that is something. I cant remember many times where 'there is totally a better cut thats coming out on dvd!' Was true. I wonder if DotFP's Rogue cut did really well?
Kingdom of Heaven by Ridley Scott and well Watchmen from Snyder come to mind. The Rogue cut didn't do anything for DoFP for me, other than sort of answer the question of what the hell happened to Anna Paquin? I swear she was promoting this movie.
Crazedwraith wrote:And it is cool they are leading with it rather than trying to get everyone to buy the rdgular editiion first.
June 28th is like forever away! :(
Image
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
User avatar
Galvatron
Decepticon Leader
Posts: 6662
Joined: 2002-07-12 12:27am
Location: Kill! Smash! Destroy! Rend! Mangle! Distort!

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Galvatron »

More than any other home video release that I can think of, it's crucial that the Ultimate Cut of BvS succeed with both audiences and critics. The DCCU desperately needs some positive buzz going into Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Galvatron wrote:More than any other home video release that I can think of, it's crucial that the Ultimate Cut of BvS succeed with both audiences and critics. The DCCU desperately needs some positive buzz going into Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman.
For my part, I have high hopes for Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman, partly because they're like to be less sprawling and more focussed than BvS, and partly because I don't like Snyder as a director.

Sadly, its possible that a lot of people will judge them, for better or worse, on BvS's quality, which isn't really fair.
Crazedwraith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11862
Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
Location: Cheshire, England

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crazedwraith »

I figure Suicide Squads more than building enough hype for itself with its Trailers.

Wonder Woman though given she actually appeared in BvS is more likely to be tarred by the same brush, even if she was basically the best bit in it. (For me)
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Crazedwraith wrote:I figure Suicide Squads more than building enough hype for itself with its Trailers.

Wonder Woman though given she actually appeared in BvS is more likely to be tarred by the same brush, even if she was basically the best bit in it. (For me)
For me it was Affleck's Batman, and the fact that for all its faults, the film at least felt epic in a way most action films do not.

Finally seeing WW alongside Batman and Superman, kicking ass on the big screen, was excellent though.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Simon_Jester »

Wonder Woman got about as good a portrayal as could reasonably be asked for given that she had about fifteen or twenty minutes of screen time. She comes across as intelligent and knowledgeable, enough so to at least engage meaningfully with Batman in areas of strategy and intrigue. Her approach to combat (she seems to be actually enjoying herself when going up against Doomsday) is dramatically different than that of Superman or Batman, in a way that helps distinguish her so that she's not just "Superman in a dress."

Despite which, she's shown as being every bit as effective a heavy hitter as Superman, able to engage Doomsday in close combat, and if anything do a better job than Big Blue does. She takes and gives out punishment and keeps fighting. She's practically taking the monster on all by herself for much of the final battle- no wonder they play her theme song during it.

So I'm really hoping they can keep this quality level up for her standalone movie.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Simon_Jester wrote:Wonder Woman got about as good a portrayal as could reasonably be asked for given that she had about fifteen or twenty minutes of screen time. She comes across as intelligent and knowledgeable, enough so to at least engage meaningfully with Batman in areas of strategy and intrigue. Her approach to combat (she seems to be actually enjoying herself when going up against Doomsday) is dramatically different than that of Superman or Batman, in a way that helps distinguish her so that she's not just "Superman in a dress."

Despite which, she's shown as being every bit as effective a heavy hitter as Superman, able to engage Doomsday in close combat, and if anything do a better job than Big Blue does. She takes and gives out punishment and keeps fighting. She's practically taking the monster on all by herself for much of the final battle- no wonder they play her theme song during it.

So I'm really hoping they can keep this quality level up for her standalone movie.
I'd say that Superman has an edge on her because their's no indication that she can actually fly in this continuity (just jump far).

But in a straight up slug-fest, she seems to be roughly his equal. Probably his superior when you factor in her weaponry.

Of course, some of that might be down to experience. She's had a lot longer to hone her combat skills than either Superman or Batman.
Post Reply