Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

[Galvatron]

I'd willingly sit through a great four hour movie about Batman and Superman.

[Crown]

I'd willingly sit through a great four hour movie about Batman and Superman.

There's a rumour that there's a 3 hour MoS movie 'out there somewhere' ... I'd do horrible, immoral things to get my hands on that.

[Galvatron]

I thought I was the only one in the world who actually LIKES the DC Snyderverse.

[Crazedwraith]

Well, three hours isn't even that long. Hell, if anything, in my opinion most epic blockbusters should probably be in the three hour range.

Yes it is. No it shouldn't.

Especially in the cinema i saw BvS in. My backside was asleep for most of the film.

Fine for on DVD at home where you can stop for piss breaks or watch over multiple nights if you want.

There's a rumour that there's a 3 hour MoS movie 'out there somewhere' ... I'd do horrible, immoral things to get my hands on that.

Was MoS one of those movies that a 'much better longer cut' that we're were supposed to get and never do. I think the same thing happened with both Avengers movies.

[The Romulan Republic]

You may find three hours too long. I don't, and I'd rather a long film than a rushed, badly edited/paced film.

I would also note that some of the most financially (and at least in RotK's case, critically) successful films of all time have been in the three hour range or longer, so plenty of people are happy to sit through a three hour epic.

I thought I was the only one in the world who actually LIKES the DC Snyderverse.

I like certain elements of it.

Their are glimpses of greatness, fragments of good films, weighed down by a lot of stupid and even outright offensive baggage.

I most definitely do not care for Snyder, and think that whatever success has been had is more in spite of him than because of him.

The two main things about it I unambiguously like are Affleck as Batman and that Wonder Woman's finally getting a major film franchise.

I'm hoping my opinion of it will improve once some of the non-Snyder directed films start premiering.

[Galvatron]

I most definitely do not care for Snyder, and think that whatever success has been had is more in spite of him than because of him.

Fair enough. I guess Suicide Squad will show us what a movie in that universe is like without Snyder directing.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm quite looking forward to both Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman.

Edit: And of course the recently announced Affleck-directed Batman film.

[Crazedwraith]

You may find three hours too long. I don't, and I'd rather a long film than a rushed, badly edited/paced film.

Yeah fine. Until you get three hours of shit instead of two. Llike if BvS was three hours. Then you'd get badly edited/paced films when writers were aiming for three fours ended up with five and then cut it back to 3.

In my opinion, two hours should the norm. 90/ 105 minutes films are short. 2.5 hrs - 3hrs are long and you better be damned good to justify it.

[The Romulan Republic]

You may find three hours too long. I don't, and I'd rather a long film than a rushed, badly edited/paced film.

Yeah fine. Until you get three hours of shit instead of two. Llike if BvS was three hours. Then you'd get badly edited/paced films when writers were aiming for three fours ended up with five and then cut it back to 3.

Or you get a film that isn't so badly paced/edited (which Batman v Superman was to a near-crippling extent) in order to fit it into the time frame.

In my opinion, two hours should the norm. 90/ 105 minutes films are short. 2.5 hrs - 3hrs are long and you better be damned good to justify it.

Two hours is fine for some stories. But when you're doing the grand, sweeping epic with several major plot lines and a huge cast, a bit more time can be beneficial.

[Crazedwraith]

Like I said you better be damn good to justify more run time. BvS needed to cut back on it's stupid shit not wallow in it some more.

[The Romulan Republic]

Like I said you better be damn good to justify more run time. BvS needed to cut back on it's stupid shit not wallow in it some more.

What, in particular, do you think needed to be cut?

I can think of a few small bits I'd have cut, but I can also recall that their were times where something felt disjointed and/or seemed to come out of nowhere, where a gap needed to be filled.

[Crazedwraith]

Like I said you better be damn good to justify more run time. BvS needed to cut back on it's stupid shit not wallow in it some more.

What, in particular, do you think needed to be cut?

I can think of a few small bits I'd have cut, but I can also recall that their were times where something felt disjointed and/or seemed to come out of nowhere, where a gap needed to be filled.

Every Justice League member aside from WW. Every inexplicable dream sequence. Every long shot of Superman floating above someone looking solemn and 'godlike'.

Most of Lex & Doomsday.

Beef up Lois' subplot or cut it. Do something with the Planet plot or cut it. (I'd hate to lose it because White give some of the very few bits of humor that wasn't in the trailer)

[Galvatron]

Two hours is fine for some stories. But when you're doing the grand, sweeping epic with several major plot lines and a huge cast, a bit more time can be beneficial.

I can't help but wonder what a two-hour "Crazedwraith cut" of Ben-Hur would be like.

[Crazedwraith]

Two hours is fine for some stories. But when you're doing the grand, sweeping epic with several major plot lines and a huge cast, a bit more time can be beneficial.

I can't help but wonder what a two-hour "Crazedwraith cut" of Ben-Hur would be like.

Go fuck yourself. I've already said a longer time frame is great for something genuinely epic that needs it. I disagreed specifically with the notion that every film should be three hours.

[Crown]

I most definitely do not care for Snyder, and think that whatever success has been had is more in spite of him than because of him.

Fair enough. I guess Suicide Squad will show us what a movie in that universe is like without Snyder directing.

Suicide Squad will have the advantage of not competing with everyone's head-canon of what a Batman or a Superman should be like. After Ledger's Joker people are willing to give Leto a chance to express himself before they get their pitchforks out, and the rest of the characters aren't big enough for anyone to really care (with the exception of Margot Robbie's Harley Quinn).

[The Romulan Republic]

One relevant example that's not quite three hours but definitely on the long side (2 hours and 32 minutes according to IMDB) that I think very much benefitted from a longer run time is The Dark Knight.

The film essentially has several climaxes. We have the big chase scene with Joker in the middle of the film, then his escape and Rachel's death/Two-Face's origin, then a lull in the action building up to the multiple hostage crises at the end. And that works for me, not only because it is needed to see Two Face's arc through to the end, but because the repetition reinforces the idea that Batman and the Joker, representing Order and Chaos, are trapped in a perpetual battle that neither can truly win. The Joker sums it up with his little speech at the end, where he tells Batman "I think you and I are destined to do this forever." (which can also be taken as a gag about how the Joker always comes back in the comics), but it resonates as much as it does, I think, because that repetition reinforces the theme.

Because, you know, Christopher Nolan is actually a good director, even if the plots for his films are sometimes somewhat lacking.

[Galvatron]

Two hours is fine for some stories. But when you're doing the grand, sweeping epic with several major plot lines and a huge cast, a bit more time can be beneficial.

I can't help but wonder what a two-hour "Crazedwraith cut" of Ben-Hur would be like.

Go fuck yourself. I've already said a longer time frame is great for something genuinely epic that needs it. I disagreed specifically with the notion that every film should be three hours.

No, no, no. You should actually go ahead and fuck yourself one thousand percent. You said this:

To me, films that long are a failure of writing, especially if it's not an adaption. The Extended LotR films are okay if they're solely an adaption of the books.

But BvS? You know going in you're aiming for approximately 2 hrs of film. Write that. don't write something twice as long you have to cut down.

So stop lying and own your argument. Asshole.

[The Romulan Republic]

Two hours is fine for some stories. But when you're doing the grand, sweeping epic with several major plot lines and a huge cast, a bit more time can be beneficial.

I can't help but wonder what a two-hour "Crazedwraith cut" of Ben-Hur would be like.

Go fuck yourself. I've already said a longer time frame is great for something genuinely epic that needs it. I disagreed specifically with the notion that every film should be three hours.

I'm going to have to comment on this as well, since you were disagreeing with me, and this is therefore a misrepresentation of my argument.

I never claimed that every film or even most film should be three hours. I argued that a longer run time might be beneficial to a particular type of film- your grand epic such as LotR or Batman v Superman.

Edit: Bottom line, I rather expect an epic to be, well, epic. Whining about it being long seems to me a lot like asking why the Iliad and Odyssey aren't sonnets.

[Galvatron]

Moreover, if adaptations are the only kinds of stories that are acceptable as three-hour movies, what the fuck does he think comic book movies are?

Jesus Christ.

[Crazedwraith]

TRR: Conceded. I basically overlooked the epic qualifier in your statement. I think we're basically in agreement, just quibbling over what epic is. And how any movies should qualify. Again, I've stated repeated through the thread that long movies are okay if they actually need that length and use it well and don't become a bloated mess.

Galvatron: 1) I thought you were following on from the immediate thread with TRR. not earlier ones. You're right to point that conflict but I think my later posts form a refinement of that initial post, not a contradiction. Check that second paragraph. That's my bone of contention. If you've got a three hour film that needs to be that length to work and you can get the studio to agree to it. That's great. But don't write a 3 or 4 hour film when you know it's got to be cut down to two and a half for the theatrical and you're then going to have to cut the stuff that would have let it make sense. I know I'm probably greatly over simplifying the movie making process there though.

2) Adapting a specific novel is not the same as adapting a comic book character. BvS is it's own film. It's not an adaption of say... Dark Knight Returns. With a novel you've got to try and do the book justice. The characters, the whole plot etc. With a comic book character you can write a compelling original story of any length, you just trying to get the characters write.

[Crazedwraith]

Fuck. This should have been an edit.

[Elheru Aran]

As noted, the problem with BvS isn't that it's a BAD movie. It's not (IMO). It is, however, not well done. A fine distinction, I admit. The problem is mostly in the coherency of the plot, how the various threads tie together, and how well the newer characters are developed.

[Crown]

Because, you know, Christopher Nolan is actually a good director, even if the plots for his films are sometimes somewhat lacking.

TRIGGERED

Nolan is the co-writer and producer of MoS and the producer of BvS, but thank god Snyder did those movies and I'll tell you why; I have far more enjoyment rewatching MoS and BvS over TDK.

TDK is flawless and coherent and if you see it once you've probably got all you're going to get out of it.

With Snyder, maybe he's too subtle or too heavy handed, I don't know which but each time I re-watch MoS and BvS I get something new out of them. I'll use my favourite scene in BvS as an example; Lois being thrown off LexCorp Tower.

The tension builds up slowly as Lex toys with Lois and then circles around her, when he's finally standing behind her we're in a tight frame of their faces. We almost forget where they are and Amy's face sells the shock as Lex pushes her off and the camera cuts to a wide as we see her fall. We hear her scream and she's falling, and falling and for a moment we wonder, we ask; will Superman catch her? We know he didn't hear his mother, is he too far away for Lois as well?

And then - brilliantly done - Superman appears under Lois. Amy Adams again just fucking nails this; from terror, to momentary confusion and then she locks eyes with Henry and they share this beautiful moment. This sweet, tender wonderful moment where he looks at her and nods almost gently; he lets her know I'll always be there for you (my Clois shipping is through the roof right about now). But what's truly amazing is that Zack purposefully chose for Superman to not catch Lois with his arms outstretched like he was catching a football or something.

No, Superman flies in under Lois; and then she falls into him. This subtle joining between the two, this almost sexual scene between them which isn't cheap or dirty but hopelessly romantic. And then after he slows her decent a little, gently he wraps her up in his arms and lowers her to the ground.

Now, my shipper brain is going into overdrive here; champagne bottles are popping, fireworks are happening you name it. But what I truly loved about this scene is that I didn't get all of that in my first viewing. It took multiple views to get it all into my brain, but even more astounding I got further information from this scene that had nothing to do with my (I think at this stage rather unhealthy) Clois shipping.

The more I saw this, and the more the emotional impact of it sort of waned, other information started processing through my brain; Lois was falling for a long time, and even after Superman catches her it takes a long time for them to reach the ground. In fact from the moment he moves her from the horizontal embrace into the carrying her in his arms position, the camera zooms out and stops descending with the couple and gives them space. But it also tracks them down towards ground level and it takes a good 10 seconds (no joke I timed this shit motherfuckers) for them to land.

This reinforces that in a megapolis like Metropolis Lex's ego was so god-damned huge that he had to build the biggest fucking tower in that city. I mean you knew it was tall from the start of the scene, but you didn't realise how much it dwarfed everything else around it in that city skyline. And it's just such a small and subtle scene that communicates the bond between Lois and Clark and at the same time underscores Lex's megalomania.

For me, when Snyder *clicks* like that; he really fucking clicks.

Now you may continue to hate his guts; opinions will of course differ.

[Galvatron]

So I take it you're against Superman and Wonder Woman hooking up, New 52-style.

[Crown]

So I take it you're against Superman and Wonder Woman hooking up, New 52-style.

Not against it; it's just not my jam. Besides Rebirth is only a month away and I think that's gonna be folded up and put away to be honest.

Although if it isn't, no big deal. I'm reading Dan Jurgens' Superman: Lois and Clark and that's continuing post Rebirth as far as I know. Besides, as we all know, bearded Superman is best Superman.