Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Ralin »

Galvatron wrote:Zod didn't exactly make a compelling case for his plan by drowning Superman in an ocean of human skulls either. He then rejected AI Jor-El's proposal to share Earth because it would be too inconvenient for the Kryptonians to adapt to the atmosphere like baby Clark did.

Fuck Zod. He was evil.
To be clear, I don't have a problem with agreeing that Zod was evil. Just that he seemed excessively stupid in his evil.

But Tribble's point about him having an irrational hatred of Clark and being poorly suited for adapting to new circumstances does go a long way to explaining that.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Simon_Jester »

Galvatron wrote:After having seen the Ultimate Editon twice now, I still wonder why Lex supplied KGBeast with exotic ammunition. If they were tipped with Kryptonite and intended to be used against Superman then that would make more sense, but the SecDef told Lois that they were only made of a metal developed by LexCorp.
Maybe they weren't tipped with Kryptonite, but were made of some exotic alloy that Luthor at least hoped would be able to penetrate Superman's skin?

If there was at least some slim chance of the bullets actually hurting Superman, even a very slim one, Luthor might go for it. At least, if he was confident enough in his political connections to ensure he wasn't caught, which he may have been. In the event, those connections were not strong enough, but they nearly were. If Lois hadn't happened to have one of the bullets on hand or if the Secretary had kept up an even slightly better 'stone face' in response to Lois's questioning, Lex's secret would have remained quite safe.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Purple »

Can't superman just dodge out of the way?
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Simon_Jester »

Maybe, but at least it's a chance. And if he thinks the bullets can't hurt him (which as a rule they can't), he may ignore them and get hit with something that at least leaves a scratch.

If I were Lex Luthor and had Luthor's priorities, I'd try to (subtly, as untraceably as possible which this was not) use all kinds of random stuff on Superman just to see if it even inconvenienced him or harmed him in any way. Because if you don't know what his weakness is, maybe the hardest known metals can penetrate his skin, or maybe his defenses are only invulnerable from one direction at a time, or maybe he's not immune to poison gas because the inside of his lungs isn't "super." Who knows?

Like in this fic, though I must caution people that they won't like the ending...

Conversely if I were Superman I'd dodge basically everything I could that wasn't going to hit an innocent person. Because... who knows if this time, my number might be up? He's supposed to be almost as fast as the Flash, so I don't see why he should get hit any more often than Flash if he doesn't want to.

Anyway, this is basically the only way Luthor could conceivably find a way to kill Superman aside from literally magically stumbling on something that can hurt him by sheer blind luck. He'd have to experiment, try things that might work, like armor piercing bullets or incendiaries or lasers or chemical weapons. That would justify some degree of experimentation with things that haven't been specifically tried on Superman.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Borgholio »

Like in this fic, though I must caution people that they won't like the ending...
Actually to be honest, I kinda DID like the ending.

(edit - damn spoiler tag)
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Borgholio »

Spoiler
It was nice seeing one of Lex's crafty / paranoid schemes actually work for once.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crown »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Galvatron wrote:After having seen the Ultimate Editon twice now, I still wonder why Lex supplied KGBeast with exotic ammunition. If they were tipped with Kryptonite and intended to be used against Superman then that would make more sense, but the SecDef told Lois that they were only made of a metal developed by LexCorp.
Maybe they weren't tipped with Kryptonite, but were made of some exotic alloy that Luthor at least hoped would be able to penetrate Superman's skin?

If there was at least some slim chance of the bullets actually hurting Superman, even a very slim one, Luthor might go for it. At least, if he was confident enough in his political connections to ensure he wasn't caught, which he may have been. In the event, those connections were not strong enough, but they nearly were. If Lois hadn't happened to have one of the bullets on hand or if the Secretary had kept up an even slightly better 'stone face' in response to Lois's questioning, Lex's secret would have remained quite safe.
Pretty much my read; I'll add the following though. Luthor might have been trialling the bullets that may not have hurt Superman but he felt may have hurt other meta-humans (or even more mundane he just wanted to make sure that the bullets could penetrate any known armour so KGBeast's double cross was effective).

Also, the movie sort of implies (and I hope that they keep it this way) that Kryptonite can't be fashioned into a bullet outright. Both Lex's scalpel and Batman's spear had a funky ass designed handle. I'm wondering for Kryptonite to be truly effective at a fast rate it needs some kind of current or voltage to be pumped through it maybe?
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Simon_Jester »

Borgholio wrote:[snip spoiler]
Let's just say that my moral values are strongly incompatible with the ending; I actually recall posting about this in a thread here some time ago, years before I ever read this story.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crown »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Borgholio wrote:[snip spoiler]
Let's just say that my moral values are strongly incompatible with the ending; I actually recall posting about this in a thread here some time ago, years before I ever read this story.

TL;DR summary? You can PM me or put it in a spoiler tag below if you like.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Galvatron »

I suppose it's also possible that Lex supplied his mercs with armor-piercing ammo in case they had to deal with Batman at some point.

Did anyone else notice how brightly the Kryptonite spear lit up when Superman was near it? Are we supposed to think that this is because Batman's spear powered it up or because it lights up when in close proximity to Kryptonians?
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Simon_Jester »

In regards to the story I linked to, The Metropolitan Man, comments on the ending follow.
Spoiler
I think Lex Luthor's actions were profoundly unethical. His actions are motivated by his belief that a powerful force in the world should die purely for being too powerful. That is wrong. Especially when this powerful force is earnestly going around doing good for people, good they are under no special obligation to do. I could go into more detail on this but I prefer to keep my statements short and to the point in spoilers.

I also think that allowing large numbers of innocents to suffer or die, in an attempt to find a way to hurt Superman, was wrong.

And I think it is profoundly sad that, in the end, when Superman, who has literally never desired anything other than good for the world, and who is specifically trying to ally himself with Luthor to increase the good that he does... he is then killed.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crown »

Galvatron wrote:I suppose it's also possible that Lex supplied his mercs with armor-piercing ammo in case they had to deal with Batman at some point.

Did anyone else notice how brightly the Kryptonite spear lit up when Superman was near it? Are we supposed to think that this is because Batman's spear powered it up or because it lights up when in close proximity to Kryptonians?
Bit of column A and a lot of column B. It most certainly lights up like a Christmas tree in proximity to Superman (and we never see that behaviour in the absence of the Kryptonian), but there's a 'sound queue' in the movie of something like high voltage/current when the camera focuses on the spear (or Lex's scalpel) irrespective of the presence of Superman or Zod.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crown »

Simon_Jester wrote:In regards to the story I linked to, The Metropolitan Man, comments on the ending follow.

<snip>
Holy shit! That author should sue the shit out of Terrio/WB for ripping off his story!

:lol: :wink:
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Galvatron »

DC published several prequel comics spotlighting each of the main characters from BvS. Here's a couple of relevant pages from the Superman issue:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

And this isn't exactly a new debate. Superman has been controversial in the comics for years, but the detractors of the current DCCU seem to have only a superficial understanding of the DCU and think that all superheroes are uniformly beloved.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crown »

Galvatron wrote:DC published several prequel comics spotlighting each of the main characters from BvS. Here's a couple of relevant pages from the Superman issue:

<sniP

And this isn't exactly a new debate. Superman has been controversial in the comics for years, ...
Is it really surprising that the most powerful man in the world, would be a figure of controversy? :wink:
Galvatron wrote: ... but the detractors of the current DCCU seem to have only a superficial understanding of the DCU and think that all superheroes are uniformly beloved.
Superman wasn't smiling while saving that person in that panel ... NOT MUH SUPERMAN! :lol:
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Galvatron »

Crown wrote:
Galvatron wrote:I might need you to periodically reassure me that all is well.
*hugs bro*

We'll get through it together. Suicide Squad is going to rock people's world; WB are creaming their pants on the early screening feedback (rumour is they want a second one right away and Harley is going to get a spin off with other femme fatale's from the DC universe *cough* Birds of Prey rumours *cough*). And if we can get a little meta since Wonder Woman is like an all girl, and I mean an all girl movie we can accuse everyone who tries to tear it down as being misogynists just like Sony are doing with the Ghostbusters debacle! :P :wink:
So Suicide Squad is yet another disappointing entry in the DCCU. I haven't even seen it yet myself so it's possible I might like it as much as I liked BvS, but I might need more reassurances that these continual "failures" aren't going to derail what I see as a promising future... :(
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crown »

Galvatron wrote:
Crown wrote:
Galvatron wrote:I might need you to periodically reassure me that all is well.
*hugs bro*

We'll get through it together. Suicide Squad is going to rock people's world; WB are creaming their pants on the early screening feedback (rumour is they want a second one right away and Harley is going to get a spin off with other femme fatale's from the DC universe *cough* Birds of Prey rumours *cough*). And if we can get a little meta since Wonder Woman is like an all girl, and I mean an all girl movie we can accuse everyone who tries to tear it down as being misogynists just like Sony are doing with the Ghostbusters debacle! :P :wink:
So Suicide Squad is yet another disappointing entry in the DCCU. I haven't even seen it yet myself so it's possible I might like it as much as I liked BvS, but I might need more reassurances that these continual "failures" aren't going to derail what I see as a promising future... :(
You just have to hope they learn from their lessons; BvS Ultimate Cut is crushing it in Blu-Ray sales ... err actually I hope that they don't think they can screw over the theatre edit just to make money on Blu-Ray! :shock: :lol:
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Galvatron »

Crown wrote:You just have to hope they learn from their lessons; BvS Ultimate Cut is crushing it in Blu-Ray sales ... err actually I hope that they don't think they can screw over the theatre edit just to make money on Blu-Ray! :shock: :lol:
Are home video sales significant enough to make a movie that underperformed at box office an overall success?
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crown »

Galvatron wrote:
Crown wrote:You just have to hope they learn from their lessons; BvS Ultimate Cut is crushing it in Blu-Ray sales ... err actually I hope that they don't think they can screw over the theatre edit just to make money on Blu-Ray! :shock: :lol:
Are home video sales significant enough to make a movie that underperformed at box office an overall success?
If the movie had a massive opening weekend? Maybe yes. The way ticket prices are structured is that the studio gets 90%ish of the box office in the first week and then their take decreases as the weeks increase. So for movies which completely smash opening weekend records (as both BvS and Suicide Squad did for their respective months) the studio reduces it's risk and exposure.

If you couple that with strong home video sales (and in this instance Blu-Ray in particular because that's the only way to get the Ultimate Cut) the studio an assure that it turns a profit. And by strong as an example Avengers: Age of Ultron did about $74 million in hard copy sales (US Domestic) whereas Man of Steel did $100million. I think BvS can do that easily, the Ultimate Cut is just getting such positive buzz.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Gandalf »

Galvatron wrote:
Crown wrote:You just have to hope they learn from their lessons; BvS Ultimate Cut is crushing it in Blu-Ray sales ... err actually I hope that they don't think they can screw over the theatre edit just to make money on Blu-Ray! :shock: :lol:
Are home video sales significant enough to make a movie that underperformed at box office an overall success?
Home video sales have been more significant than cinema since a tipping point in the late eighties, when enough people owned VCRs and cassettes were at the right price for families to buy them on impulse. It doesn't apply to every film, but it's a general trend.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crown »

Galvatron wrote:So Suicide Squad is yet another disappointing entry in the DCCU. I haven't even seen it yet myself so it's possible I might like it as much as I liked BvS, but I might need more reassurances that these continual "failures" aren't going to derail what I see as a promising future... :(
Warner Bros. Puts ‘Man of Steel’ Sequel Into Active Development (Exclusive)

Hope lives on! :D

Also confirmed as more than rumour as two directors have been approached/attached to it from another source independent of Umberto.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Crazedwraith »

Galvatron wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:Two hours is fine for some stories. But when you're doing the grand, sweeping epic with several major plot lines and a huge cast, a bit more time can be beneficial.
I can't help but wonder what a two-hour "Crazedwraith cut" of Ben-Hur would be like. :lol:

Coincidentally the new Ben-Hur is about two hours long....

Of course it's probably also shit.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Galvatron »

This articulates the various reason I like Cavill's incarnation of Superman so much.

6 Reasons Why Zack Snyder Saved Superman
Superman’s actions have consequences, and we see them from the beginning, we learn to condemn unnecessary destruction, and recognize the tragedy of accidental or necessary destruction.

In a world like our own, where it takes thirteen movies in another superhero franchise before those kinds of consequences come due, that’s extremely unusual. But, in a world like our own, a focus on the tragedy of violence is, I believe, a good thing.
:D
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by EnterpriseSovereign »

Crazedwraith wrote:
Galvatron wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:Two hours is fine for some stories. But when you're doing the grand, sweeping epic with several major plot lines and a huge cast, a bit more time can be beneficial.
I can't help but wonder what a two-hour "Crazedwraith cut" of Ben-Hur would be like. :lol:

Coincidentally the new Ben-Hur is about two hours long....

Of course it's probably also shit.
Well, the reviews certainly say it is- wish I could say I was surprised.
Warner Bros. Puts ‘Man of Steel’ Sequel Into Active Development (Exclusive)
Weird, I thought BvS was the sequel.
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Re: Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

Post by Batman »

I think they mean 'sequel' as in 'pure Superman movie' sequel as Me vs Clark was kinda sorta a team movie. Plus they need to bring Clark back from the dead and that's probably best done in its own movie.
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