Game of Thrones Season 5 (TV ONLY)

[The Vortex Empire]

Welp. At least Littlefinger is coming with another army. If he loses and Ramsay kills Littlefinger too, Ramsay will have acheived peak Mary Sue.

[gigabytelord]

Guys... maybe I'm grasping at straws here but this episode reminded me, in ways I can't quite articulate, of season one. The entire time I was watching and especially after it was over I kept getting the feeling that we were watching all of season one and parts of two and three writ small in one episode.

The night's watch are back to square one effectively. The war of the five kings is effectively over with a new war of succession about to start, and let's face it that's what it's probably going to turn into only this time the Martels have taken the place of the Lannisters as the murderers, and Dany's back with the Dothraki. Hell Tyrion's even found himself setup as the unlikely ruler of yet another kingdom he didn't want to rule in the first place. Doran seems to be in the same place Tywin was in season two. Not wanting war but willing to do everything in his power to protect Dorne... and of course Ellaria who seems to be a mix of both the Cersei and Joffrey combined in that she is both blinded with rage and vengeance and willing to start a war for it as well as manipulative but not quite as cunning as she thinks herself to be.

Just my two cents and I might be reading more into it than is actually there but it feels like D&D used this episode as a way wipe the board clean in a way. To give themselves some more room to work with other story lines and progress the story in a different way next season.

[Vympel]

GoT is basically pro wrestling: People watch the heels doing bad things to the babyfaces, get all angry about it, and gladly tune in next week to watch more. The producers know that the audience will keep tuning in on the off chance that a heel might get comeuppance.

I'm stealing that right now.

[Venator]

GoT is basically pro wrestling: People watch the heels doing bad things to the babyfaces, get all angry about it, and gladly tune in next week to watch more. The producers know that the audience will keep tuning in on the off chance that a heel might get comeuppance.

I'm stealing that right now.

Ditto.

[Pelranius]

Welp. At least Littlefinger is coming with another army. If he loses and Ramsay kills Littlefinger too, Ramsay will have acheived peak Mary Sue.

Well, how well suited are the Vale men for fighting in winter?

[Thanas]

Welp. At least Littlefinger is coming with another army. If he loses and Ramsay kills Littlefinger too, Ramsay will have acheived peak Mary Sue.

Man, I just hate how Roose Bolten is replaced as main villain of the north by Ramsay. Ugh.

That being said, I bet cents to dollars that Doran wasn't in on the assassination of Myrcella and that Ellaria Sand will lose her head soon - unless she manages a coup, but with what?

Who wants to bet that most of the heavy cavalry the Boltons suddenly had were actually Stannis former sellswords, who went "Fuck this" after he burnt his girl?

Welp. At least Littlefinger is coming with another army. If he loses and Ramsay kills Littlefinger too, Ramsay will have acheived peak Mary Sue.

Well, how well suited are the Vale men for fighting in winter?

It is Littlefinger, he will - unlike supposed master strategist and master commander Stannis the perpetual loser of battles - have planned ahead. If his massive army is actually marching North.

Also: KEVAN IS BACK.

[Thanas]

Finest military commander in Westeros, guys. Forgets everything essential

[TheHammer]

Finest military commander in Westeros, guys. Forgets everything essential

Who wants to bet that most of the heavy cavalry the Boltons suddenly had were actually Stannis former sellswords, who went "Fuck this" after he burnt his girl?

They would almost have to be wouldn't they? With the numbers we see visually on screen I don't see why they ever would have feared Stannis otherwise. If he doubled his numbers and gave them all forces the Boltons still would have had a 2-1 advantage. The impression given in previous episodes was that Stannis had a slight numbers advantage and an overwhelming cavalry advantage. The only thing that makes sense is that Ramsay/Roose bribed the sell swords to turn coat and fight for him.

It is Littlefinger, he will - unlike supposed master strategist and master commander Stannis the perpetual loser of battles - have planned ahead. If his massive army is actually marching North.

Also: KEVAN IS BACK.

To be fair to Stannis, I don't think he was thinking clearly because of the recent events. And if the above theory about the cavalry defecting to Roose is true, then you could understand why he would not expect to be attacked by massed cavalry. The only other battle he lost was blackwater, due in great part to a wildfire trick was seemingly unprecedented and a wholly unexpected Lannister/Tyrell alliance.

[Thanas]

Still, he then also apparently has no competent second or troop leaders who - despite veterans - don't remember the first rule of strategy.

[Thanas]

Lighthearted fun:

(more here)

[Pelranius]

Huh, never noticed Melisandre's heels until now.

[Irbis]

Finest military commander in Westeros, guys. Forgets everything essential

Yeah, no. I read that and pretty much every single point is BS, unless you happen to play a video game. Then, yeah, such unimportant details as lack of food, horses, time, loyal people capable of ranging in the snow to scout, or any hope, can be ignored. Officers should have told him to do otherwise? Who? He lost them in the south, in the north he had literal bottom of the barrel even in books.

And even if Stannis had competent, loyal man that wouldn't desert or freeze from exhaustion and malnutrition to scout ahead, good luck with getting that info to army on foot, evading counterscouting cavalry determined to run him down. Oh, wait, I guess Stannis could just activate overhead map of battlefield on his GUI, right?

And yes, gee, army that has solid shelter, food, and beds to sleep in can afford to lose time practising formations, unlike freezing army on march. Shocking, not having second fully stocked Winterfell to fall on, such incompetence from Stannis, right?

Even when you look at his suggestions, they are complete, utter nonsense that would hand victory to Boltons with no losses - yeah, camping in forest with no food and within easy range of enemy sorties makes perfect sense after small raid already did massive damage

Challenging Boltons to fight from cover? Nope, Roose would just laugh and dared them to come forward, as time plays only for him. Not marched on field? Do what then? Wait for attrition to finish them off? Besieging less important fortresses? Losing men and time for nothing? I am sure Boltons would love that. Returned north? Did that idiot forgot food issue? Or the fact thaw would last days at most? Or desertions? Hello? Total War much?

Really, Stannis had no chance, what he did was about the only thing that had tiny chance of somehow working, and if not, it would at least give them quick end in battle before they either freeze or will be so weak Boltons will capture and torture them to death. Similar to crossing the Rubicon - except this time opposition had enough common sense to not act rashly and walk into a trap.

[Thanas]

Finest military commander in Westeros, guys. Forgets everything essential

Yeah, no. I read that and pretty much every single point is BS, unless you happen to play a video game. Then, yeah, such unimportant details as lack of food, horses, time, loyal people capable of ranging in the snow to scout, or any hope, can be ignored. Officers should have told him to do otherwise? Who? He lost them in the south, in the north he had literal bottom of the barrel even in books.

There is no army at all that would have any hope of sieging a castle like Winterfell if they did not have the bare minimum of competency, and this is all lacking.

And even if Stannis had competent, loyal man that wouldn't desert or freeze from exhaustion and malnutrition to scout ahead, good luck with getting that info to army on foot, evading counterscouting cavalry determined to run him down.

Woods. Runners. All things a feature of warfare. Somehow even the fucking barbarian tribes managed to do so. Are you saying Stannis is more incompetent than an ancient barbarian tribe of farmers?

Even when you look at his suggestions, they are complete, utter nonsense that would hand victory to Boltons with no losses - yeah, camping in forest with no food and within easy range of enemy sorties makes perfect sense after small raid already did massive damage

FFS, this is exactly what military manuals advise one to do. Forage, use the terrain to your advantage. Much better than marching out into a plain, in perfect view of the castle, in disorder and with no fucking scouting or fallback provisions.

Heck, even a standard marching column would have done much better than Stannis disordered rabble.

[Simon_Jester]

Basically, if Stannis' army was so close to total collapse that it couldn't post sentries or scouts*, then it was literally impossible for him to win a battle against an organized military force led by a vaguely competent commander. And hard to believe that Stannis even got any of them to press the attack in the first place.

*Even with no horses they could still have men not burdened by armor and heavy packs that could at least move faster and thus act as scouts...

[RogueIce]

I think these two comments have it, basically:

Nothing could have gone differently, he was a demoralised, shrunken and on foot force trying to do a siege. He had lost and he knew it.

Great analysis but I'm pretty sure once Stannis realized his family was dead and his advisers were gone, he said fuck it & did a suicide run

At this point he's hardly "the finest military commander" anymore. He's so demoralized and beaten that now he's only got one thought on his mind: march or die. And I'm pretty sure the remnants of his army don't give a fuck either, but maybe they figured they have nowhere to go and/or are the sufficiently fanatic/fundamentalist/loyal of them so they just go with it at this point.

The amazing thing is what Simon_Jester said, that he got as many of his men to march to their doom as he did.

[Venator]

The amazing thing is what Simon_Jester said, that he got as many of his men to march to their doom as he did.

Probably as much fear of punishment for desertion, or belief there was nowhere to go (you'd have to steal a few days of food to get back to Castle Black, and wouldn't exactly be welcome when you got there presumably) as genuine loyalty.

If you watch the shot of the cavalry charge again, notice that there are a LOT of men in the rear of the group fleeing for the treeline or scattering towards the flanks.

[streetad]

Stannis basically just had his core of uber-loyalists and LoL fanatics left by this point. He was already mentally beaten when he burned his daughter and carried on marching just out of stubborn refusal to lie down and die.

His sellswords going over to the Boltons makes sense. Mercenaries like to get paid and who else has the wherewithal to pay them in 1000 miles in any direction? Jon Snow?

[Vympel]

Yeah, no. I read that and pretty much every single point is BS, unless you happen to play a video game. Then, yeah, such unimportant details as lack of food, horses, time, loyal people capable of ranging in the snow to scout, or any hope, can be ignored. Officers should have told him to do otherwise? Who? He lost them in the south, in the north he had literal bottom of the barrel even in books.

I don't remember anything in the books saying he had 'the literal bottom of the barrel'. Stannis went north with what remained of his strength after the Blackwater - he had quality southern knights and men-at-arms. They're few in number, but they're not idiots.

The finale was characterised by Elio and Linda as 'tone deaf' re: Stannis, and I agree. They heaped misfortune after misfortune upon him in the space of mere minutes, and what they were probably trying to play as tragedy became almost farce. They just hammered him into the ground and robbed his final battle of all drama and tension. Stephen Dillane's death scene was still excellently handled though.

[Vendetta]

GoT is basically pro wrestling: People watch the heels doing bad things to the babyfaces, get all angry about it, and gladly tune in next week to watch more. The producers know that the audience will keep tuning in on the off chance that a heel might get comeuppance.

The wrestlemans are better at building up a heel though because they've got realtime feedback when a heel is winning too easily and the faces he's beating are jobbing too hard to make him look scary. They can look at the crowd and see if they're buying it.

In Game of TV the heel is encountering too few problems (especially compared to the books where the Boltons' hold is far more tenuous and mostly primed for internal rebellion because the people that put them there aren't exactly in a position to help any more and not effortlessly winning as the result of massive and obvious jobbing).

[Venator]

With regards to Jon Snow and the director's comments that he is, in fact, dead, my personal crazy-as-balls-shit-that-you-think-of-while-brushing-your-teeth idea:
Spoiler

Snow IS dead. Lady Melisandre, who is (a) at Castle Black, (b) previously decided Snow was at least useful enough to try and jump him and (c) appears traumatized by her utter failure with Stannis brings him back, making him the show's version of Lady Stoneheart.

*shrug*

[Thanas]

The finale was characterised by Elio and Linda as 'tone deaf' re: Stannis, and I agree. They heaped misfortune after misfortune upon him in the space of mere minutes, and what they were probably trying to play as tragedy became almost farce. They just hammered him into the ground and robbed his final battle of all drama and tension. Stephen Dillane's death scene was still excellently handled though.

It would have been so much better if the finale had spent five minutes setting that battle up, kinda like:

1. Stannis still has his horse and a few scouts left (Quite frankly, sellswords managing to run off with even his personal horse makes him look stupid)
2. The scouts inform him the Boltons have a massive cavalry army composed of his former sellswords
3. The choice is to either leave his men behind to die or go on a likely unsuccessful infantry assault
4. Stannis, sick of abandoning people and remembering his duty, decides to attack with his men, sending his horse away.

That would have been more befitting of his character and would not take more than one or two extra minutes to set up.

[Pelranius]

I found it a bit jarring that Melisandre managed to abscond with the one horse that the sellswords hadn't taken. Granted, she probably found one somehow.

Rewatching the Battle of the Ice, I didn't any Stormlands helmets on the second watch, but if they were sellswords from Essos, they'd be wearing different gear anyways.

[LaCroix]

1. Stannis still has his horse and a few scouts left (Quite frankly, sellswords managing to run off with even his personal horse makes him look stupid)

I'm pretty sure that his horse was the one Melisandre rode away on, for it should have been one of the few still left.

[Thanas]

1. Stannis still has his horse and a few scouts left (Quite frankly, sellswords managing to run off with even his personal horse makes him look stupid)

I'm pretty sure that his horse was the one Melisandre rode away on, for it should have been one of the few still left.

And where are the other few left? He couldn't have no knights whatsoever of his own. The way the writers wrote that is just stupid.

[Pelranius]

It was mentioned in Season Four, when Stannis and Davos were talking, that he still had about several hundred knights.