Question about the development of magic in fantasy settings

FAN: Discuss various fictional worlds that don't qualify for SF.

Moderator: Steve

User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Question about the development of magic in fantasy setti

Post by Elheru Aran »

Potions aren't necessarily a matter of ingredients-- IIRC there's at least one or two where there are obvious magical effects while they're being mixed, which indicates that there's some sort of unconscious transference of magical energy or whatever into the admixture. Otherwise Muggles would be making potions right and left by accident in the herbal stores... An alternative explanation might be that the potion mixture only reacts with the 'wizard gene' and would have no effect upon a Muggle.
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Question about the development of magic in fantasy setti

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Is the magic coming from the wizard, or is the magical effect triggered by combining certain ingredients in certain ways? After all, some substances appear to have inherent magical qualities (the dragon heartstrings, unicorn hair, and phoenix feathers they make wand cores out of come to mind).
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Question about the development of magic in fantasy setti

Post by Elheru Aran »

Well, yeah, obviously those would not be available to Muggles. I imagine that it depends on the potion, but I think there is certainly some connection with the wizard's abilities.
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Question about the development of magic in fantasy setti

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Of course the ingredients wouldn't normally be available to Muggles, but that's simply a question of lack of resources, not biological inability.
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Question about the development of magic in fantasy setti

Post by Elheru Aran »

True. If it *is* a biological inability, that would explain why some Muggles don't spontaneously sprout hair all over their bodies or whatever by drinking tea with an coincidental mixture of the wrong herbs or whatever. I'm not sure how much ritual accompanies Potion making, but that's somewhat the fault of the novels being Harry's perspective-- he views it as mostly useless throwing herbs together in a pot until Half-Blood Prince, and even then he's just skating with the book he finds.
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
User avatar
TheFeniX
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4869
Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Location: Texas

Re: Question about the development of magic in fantasy setti

Post by TheFeniX »

Formless wrote:Arcane magic is NOT "stolen from the gods". It is not effected by the presence or absence of gods at all. It helps to remember that different settings in D&D are not equivalent, though they are connected by Planescape and Wildspace.
Yea, that's fair. Forgotten Realms seems to tie a lot of it's magic to the Gods, but even this information is cobbled together from multiple books over the years, so I'm really just guessing. Planescape tries to hammer a lot of it together with mixed success.
Even high level D&D wizards would love to have the secret of spontaneous spellcasting without the game breaking drawbacks of Truename stupidity.
I'm sure Potter-verse wizards would love access to spells like Wish or the horrendously overpowered defensive spells D&D wizards get, yet no one ever seems to use. Even the comparatively low level Protection from Evil would have numerous uses in the Potter world. Dumbledore can create some pretty powerful magic, but even with his wand +5 of awesomeness, he can't drop meteors on people. But potter-verse magic is terribly inconsistent, even what's displayed in the movies. The most powerful wizards really don't show anything all that impressive, when compare to D&D wizards, but a young Hermione is using a time-travelling device to... get to more classes. Now, I'm sure the device has it's limits, but being able to modify the events of the past few days is a Wish level spell or magical effect in D&D. Potter magic seems to be it's most powerful in the enchanting or magical artificing realm what with the horcruxes, philosopher stones, swords that can take on new magical properties as time goes on.

Shadowrun magic is sort of in the middle. Instantaneous casting, but one person is rarely able to produce the effects of one old D&D wizard... maybe the insane ones. Summoned Great Spirits and Toxics can wreak havok in a large area, but spontaneous powerful magic tends to be as deadly to the user as his targets. Magic like this exists in the game, such as the Great Ghost Dance. It's power was measured in how many Shamans died to produce it though.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Question about the development of magic in fantasy setti

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Well, the time traveling thing isn't something Hermione could do herself. That was with Ministry equipment, wasn't it? Still absurd that they'd give something that powerful to a student though.
User avatar
TheFeniX
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4869
Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Location: Texas

Re: Question about the development of magic in fantasy setti

Post by TheFeniX »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Well, the time traveling thing isn't something Hermione could do herself. That was with Ministry equipment, wasn't it? Still absurd that they'd give something that powerful to a student though.
That's what gets me: it's an exceedingly rare magical device that acts like Bill and Ted's phone-booth with it's paradox free time-travel. The uses of it seems to be pretty far reaching since teenagers used it to change major life and death events affecting numerous other (supposedly more powerful) wizards, without consequence and doesn't seem to require much if any aptitude to use.

It's in the same playing field as a Ring of Wishes from D&D. All Shal had to do to turn herself from a lithe wizard was to think "I wish this saddle wasn't so heavy" and she's suddenly an Amazon with 18/00 strength (which in game rules, even a wish can't do, but we'll let it slide). However, wishes tend to have their own cosmic wit, even in that example. There's no reason the wish had to make her huge. It could have made the saddle lighter, it could have given her gauntlets of power, etc. A long running theme with wishes is how bad they'll screw you over.

I don't know what was involved in making the time travel artifact, but since HP wizards flout the "rules" all the time, I can't see why there isn't a set of wizards using it to fix all manner of things. If the device has drawbacks, the movies don't let on to anything since I would assume "keeping your past self from dieing among other people/animals, so they can affect other important changes later" is about as much as you can flout a time paradox. It's a pretty damned powerful device, even if we assume it can only be used like it was in the movies.

I can't think of a D&D device that performs magic a wizard couldn't cast out of his own mind/spellbook, but there likely are some. But resurrection stones and time-travel devices cover two areas of Potter-verse magic that the movies don't even allude to Wizards being able to cast with a wand and their effects seem a lot more powerful. Maybe the books hit on more, I don't know, never read them.
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Question about the development of magic in fantasy setti

Post by Elheru Aran »

TheFeniX wrote:But resurrection stones and time-travel devices cover two areas of Potter-verse magic that the movies don't even allude to Wizards being able to cast with a wand and their effects seem a lot more powerful. Maybe the books hit on more, I don't know, never read them.
Not a whole lot. The Philosopher's Stone, Harry's specific Invisibility Cloak and the Wand of Destiny are about the only extra-special artifacts that are out there, IIRC, although JKR's other writings like the Beedle the Bard book and her Pottermore apocrypha may reference more, I haven't read those. Everything else is magic worked fairly directly by wizards.

As far as the time travel thing goes: it's obvious that JKR realized after Book Three that it was simply far too much of a game-breaker. She couldn't think of any clever way to rewrite it because her plot depended too much on it, but frankly it was an ill conceived if useful plot device. There is practically zero mention of it afterwards IIRC, and if it's mentioned it's shot down immediately (all Time-Turners are under heavy guard at the Department of Magic or something). If it wasn't already part of the canon it would be easy to ignore it as a brainfart, but since it's there...
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
Lord of the Abyss
Village Idiot
Posts: 4046
Joined: 2005-06-15 12:21am
Location: The Abyss

Re: Question about the development of magic in fantasy setti

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

In Magician's Ward by Patricia Wrede, it's explained why Latin and Greek are usually used in spells. It turns out that casting magic in your native tongue makes the spell stronger but distorts the effects unpredictably. It's mentioned that a French wizard could cast spells in English just fine, and an English wizard could use French. The ancient Greeks cast their spells in Latin and the ancient Romans cast spells in classical Greek; since both languages are dead ones modern magicians use a mix of them, with some Hebrew thrown into the mix. Using multiple languages makes it more confusing, but harder to steal spells. Using specific languages is also important because the effects of the spell can change due tot he different nuances of what a word means in that language.

In Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar setting, it's mentioned at one point that the words and gestures a mage uses are mnemonics, not real "magic words". A sufficiently skilled mage or one who knows the magic in question well enough won't bother. I recall a scene where low level "earth mages" are creating fireballs with elaborate gestures and words, while the (then) Master Mage Kethry is just staring at things to make them catch on fire.

In her 500 Kingdoms setting it's mentioned that sorceresses cast magic using an artificial language that defines what the magic does.

In the novel Moon Dreams, magic works simply by making a statement with the intent of magic occurring; any statement. But each such "spell" only works once, so after ages of human existence in that world the short spells consisting of few words have mostly been used up, and ever longer and more elaborate statements need to be made to use magic.
Broomstick wrote: The business of faux latin is also explained in the Dresdenverse. Using a certain word or phrase repeatedly for magic tends to imprint it on your magical talents, making it easier to use. Thus, you might want to avoid common words and phrases in your native/most used tongue so you don't accidentally trigger magical effects when you don't want them. Thus, Harry's admittedly bad Latin (it's almost a running gag) works just fine. There is a reference to some Japanese wizards studying American slang for use as their magic words. One magic-user might have been using Etruscan. You could use made-up nonsense noises if you wanted. The use of obscure/foreign phrases is actually a safety practice, not a requirement.
Hah, I recall some (non-Dresden) webfiction I ran across years ago where the character was learning magic that worked rather like that; she ended up working magic using Pig Latin. Her teacher also mentioned knowing someone who made the mistake of learning to cast magic using his native tongue, and as a result hasn't been able to talk in his birth language for years since he might randomly shoot out a fireball or something.
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
User avatar
Zixinus
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6663
Joined: 2007-06-19 12:48pm
Location: In Seth the Blitzspear
Contact:

Re: Question about the development of magic in fantasy setti

Post by Zixinus »

If you look at different magic systems you will see parallels at how people had and seen high knowledge. That is where our mythos of magic comes from. The methods, tools and medium by which people learn magic often implicitly defines the nature of magic or even the setting. It also defines how people look at it in the setting. The evolution of knowledge-keeping, lore and the evolution of spiritual experiences would mimic the evolution of magic use.

Hunter-gatherer magic: often shamanistic and/or naturalistic, mirroring the worldview of hunter-gatherer societies. Everyone knows a few things, the line between inheriting or being selected for is blurred by community. Magic users would most likely serve their community, their families and clans foremost. A magic-user is likely to receive training directly trough another magic-user in the tribe/band or with one that they have good relations with. Training would be almost purely oral, writing would take only the form of carvings and painted walls/stone that would be of unknown meaning to outsiders. The nature of the teaching may be very individualistic with plenty of traditions given from-hand-to-hand (ie, likely no one or nothing in-between). Magic will be performed in various rituals that differ in details by the person and the nature of the tradition differ by tribe. A magic-user's scope of skills will likely be broad to handle everything, at best tailored to the needs of the tribe.
Magic users would almost certainly have to learn how to survive and live like anyone else, even if they are regularly given food, they need to have common skills just for day-to-day living. Most powerful magic-users will likely be old people who simply have plenty of experience and time to learn. Certain locations will be important and decorated but likely open to all who know where it is. Spirits often take the form of animals or other natural phenomenon. Likely objects of interesting magical power would be herbs, rare animal parts and certain rocks or other (relatively) easily-gained thing in the environment.

Basic agricultural would inherit all of the above but because the people are more location-locked, so too the magic. Magic-users would serve the whole village and (depending on how useful they are or how frequently their skills are needed) partially sustained by the village to allow them to specialize. Depending on how productive the village is, they may still have their own patch of land to work on (for food) and still join in on jobs that require the entire village (like harvest) if they have no magical duties. By simple reason that they can store them somewhere, more magical objects are to come around and more of them made. A magic-user would likely inherit many things that a hunter-gatherer magic user would have, such as knowledge of herbs. A village may have multiple magic users. Teaching would be expanded by access to multiple people, writing expanded in its role, even if in the visual form of decoration on things like patterns on sewed clothes or carving on the inside walls of a house, etc.
Long-standing traditions will be established along with more complex rituals. Spirits may be given more unique, humanized forms. Objects like statues gain importance along with countless objects. Rituals become more elaborate and possibly longer.

And so on. The more you climb the civilization ladder the more you can see how different types of magic can be next to each other. A modern industrial world would have techno-magic simply because a modern industrial world works with industrial-era science. But within it, there is space ot sustain magic users from all over the previous ladders. I would write more, but it gives the gist of the idea.
Credo!
Chat with me on Skype if you want to talk about writing, ideas or if you want a test-reader! PM for address.
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28724
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Question about the development of magic in fantasy setti

Post by Broomstick »

Actually, hunter-gatherer magic might well be extremely rigid. In the real world, at least some of the "magic" is potent pharmaceuticals or poisons (for hunting) that require precise formulas and handling lest they harm the user. Customs around things like vision-quests and endurance rituals will tend to exclude those most likely to be harmed by them.

In contrast, a techno-mage world with some sort of "scientific" theory might be more open to experimentation.

With this sort of thing I like to take a look at what history can show us for actual cultures. That gives us less of a basis for worlds where magic is strictly inherited talent but for worlds where it's very much learned historical models can help generate believable settings.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Ahriman238
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4854
Joined: 2011-04-22 11:04pm
Location: Ocularis Terribus.

Re: Question about the development of magic in fantasy setti

Post by Ahriman238 »

Zixinus wrote:If you look at different magic systems you will see parallels at how people had and seen high knowledge. That is where our mythos of magic comes from. The methods, tools and medium by which people learn magic often implicitly defines the nature of magic or even the setting. It also defines how people look at it in the setting. The evolution of knowledge-keeping, lore and the evolution of spiritual experiences would mimic the evolution of magic use.

Hunter-gatherer magic: often shamanistic and/or naturalistic, mirroring the worldview of hunter-gatherer societies. Everyone knows a few things, the line between inheriting or being selected for is blurred by community. Magic users would most likely serve their community, their families and clans foremost. A magic-user is likely to receive training directly trough another magic-user in the tribe/band or with one that they have good relations with. Training would be almost purely oral, writing would take only the form of carvings and painted walls/stone that would be of unknown meaning to outsiders. The nature of the teaching may be very individualistic with plenty of traditions given from-hand-to-hand (ie, likely no one or nothing in-between). Magic will be performed in various rituals that differ in details by the person and the nature of the tradition differ by tribe. A magic-user's scope of skills will likely be broad to handle everything, at best tailored to the needs of the tribe.
Magic users would almost certainly have to learn how to survive and live like anyone else, even if they are regularly given food, they need to have common skills just for day-to-day living. Most powerful magic-users will likely be old people who simply have plenty of experience and time to learn. Certain locations will be important and decorated but likely open to all who know where it is. Spirits often take the form of animals or other natural phenomenon. Likely objects of interesting magical power would be herbs, rare animal parts and certain rocks or other (relatively) easily-gained thing in the environment.

Basic agricultural would inherit all of the above but because the people are more location-locked, so too the magic. Magic-users would serve the whole village and (depending on how useful they are or how frequently their skills are needed) partially sustained by the village to allow them to specialize. Depending on how productive the village is, they may still have their own patch of land to work on (for food) and still join in on jobs that require the entire village (like harvest) if they have no magical duties. By simple reason that they can store them somewhere, more magical objects are to come around and more of them made. A magic-user would likely inherit many things that a hunter-gatherer magic user would have, such as knowledge of herbs. A village may have multiple magic users. Teaching would be expanded by access to multiple people, writing expanded in its role, even if in the visual form of decoration on things like patterns on sewed clothes or carving on the inside walls of a house, etc.
Long-standing traditions will be established along with more complex rituals. Spirits may be given more unique, humanized forms. Objects like statues gain importance along with countless objects. Rituals become more elaborate and possibly longer.

And so on. The more you climb the civilization ladder the more you can see how different types of magic can be next to each other. A modern industrial world would have techno-magic simply because a modern industrial world works with industrial-era science. But within it, there is space ot sustain magic users from all over the previous ladders. I would write more, but it gives the gist of the idea.
A magic-user is traditionally a wise man, whatever that means to a specific culture. With the early Norse runic alphabets, a decent chunk of what was written were spells supposedly given power and permanence by being recorded. Plus, when most people are illiterate, the ability to know the precise words of a man living far away without ever speaking to him, or to inherit the knowledge of one long dead, is pretty damned impressive and magical. A Norse wizard would likely be some form of skald or lorekeeper.

Our own enduring image of a wizard is an old man, steeped in history, knowledge of ancient legends and secrets, probably with a vast library and inexplicable devices.


How about "So you Want to be a Wizard?" there are explicit gods of a sort (the Powers) from whom magic originates. Magic mostly consists of the ability to talk to things, animals, plants, microlife, even inanimate objects and maybe convince them to help you. Wizards are described several times as tech-support for the universe. "(the Powers) understood how the universe worked when it was factory fresh. We know how to deal with all the quirks it's developed since then."
"Any plan which requires the direct intervention of any deity to work can be assumed to be a very poor one."- Newbiespud
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28724
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Question about the development of magic in fantasy setti

Post by Broomstick »

Ahriman238 wrote:Magic mostly consists of the ability to talk to things, animals, plants, microlife, even inanimate objects and maybe convince them to help you.
That's the shamanistic slant on magic, as opposed to the "learned man" with a massive library approach. Although the geotic and enochian branches of ceremonial magic - basically, communication with demons and angels - are sort of that as well.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
biostem
Jedi Master
Posts: 1488
Joined: 2012-11-15 01:48pm

Re: Question about the development of magic in fantasy setti

Post by biostem »

Reading all the feedback and takes on magic in various settings has been very "educational" for me. I suppose what bugs me about many of these settings is when characters don't use their abilities to the fullest, and when a setting is internally inconsistent; I can easily suspend my disbelief, but if a power or ability is portrayed as being able to do one thing at one point, then is either forgotten or ceases to work at another point, it just irritates me...
User avatar
Formless
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4139
Joined: 2008-11-10 08:59pm
Location: the beginning and end of the Present

Re: Question about the development of magic in fantasy setti

Post by Formless »

Well, one thing you can do is think about consistency differently. You like to think that you have seen something done once, ergo it will always work that way. But that is only one way of thinking about consistency, and it can fail even in scientifically consistent settings because two situations are not quite the same. Playing D&D, you learn to think about everything in terms of statistics, and that is consistent...ly inconsistent. Everything you do, mundane or magical, comes down to a dice roll at some point in the series of events. There are only a few exceptions where the game allows you to "take [x]" [x=10 OR 20 as an assumed value of the dice roll]. But those situations are strictly defined and usually happen when things are relaxed and the only stress the character feels is the stress inherent to the activity.

Spells don't usually work the same way, but there is usually a roll for damage and/or a saving throw by an enemy, and the skewed but still random nature of the spells dictate how you use them. Sometimes you don't use mind effecting spells (even though Charm Person/Monster is borderline OP) because you know that the monster in question has high wisdom, and thus has a good Will save against enchantments and illusions. You could risk it for big payoff, but something else is just as effective AND more likely to work. Mundane solutions included (because magic users run out of spells-per-day). Someone reading a book however wouldn't necessarily know that a sleep spell would fail against, say, an elf-- D&D3.5 lore says that elvish physiology requires nightly meditation, not sleep. So it might puzzle a reader why the wizard bypasses a bunch of hobgoblins with Sleep but chooses to go with a Fireball against a band of Drow (i.e. Dark Elves). Or a wizard might have a quick wit and realize that a monster is particularly easy or necessary to damage a certain way. Trolls regenerate from wounds unless burned or doused in acid, demons usually have one or two elemental resistances, etc. Actually, HP has a good example of this at the end of book 6 where Harry tries the same slasher spell against zombies that nearly killed Draco and fails, but Dumbledore (in a poisoned state no less) recalls that HP zombies fear fire and exploits that. 'Cause I guess zombies that live underwater are afraid of fire. Whatever. Its consistent with what the characters know, and not all situations require them to explain that.

D&D consistently refers to magic as an art form. Not everyone has talent, so not everyone pulls off their spells properly. Some are so talented that they can apply meta-magic to imbue extra effects onto their spells. Many fantasy settings insist that magic is mysterious even to practitioners and thus unpredictable (again, D&D and the proliferation of spellcasting classes). The ignorance and unpredictability is a point of consistency. And then there are settings like Magic: the Gathering where the nature of magic is more fully explored, but there are just so many possibilities (in the game and books!) that no one character knows them all-- they just know their specialty. There is so much about Fantasy that goes beyond adherence to rules as the main form of consistency.
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
The Magic Eight Ball Conspiracy.
Post Reply