The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)

[Tribble]

The One being a soul jar was probably an unintended side-effect. I doubt Sauron took into account "what would happen if someone killed me?" when he made it. If I remember correctly, Sauron had to put a lot more of himself into the One than he had originally intended as he did not anticipate Celebrimbor making the Three, which were considerably more powerful than the others.

Also, Sauron using the Nazgul and trying to corrupt the dwarves was his plan B. The rings were originally intended for the elves, and he was hoping to enslave them all and capture their kingdoms intact. The elves were the most powerful race in Middle-Earth at the time, and Sauron wanted to control them. It was only after his scheme had failed that he decided to destroy the elves and take the rings by force. Which is why Celebrimor should have destroyed them, but obviously he didn't. As was stated by others, pride was probably the reason why he didn't make the rational choice. I think he was Feanor's grandson if I remember correctly... so ya. In hindsight, I suppose what was more surprising was that he didn't immediately march on the Black Gate and challenge Sauron to a fight.

I wonder how things would have played out had the Seven and the Nine been destroyed? Obviously the ring-wraiths wouldn't have been around, and the dwarven kingdoms wouldn't have been so prone to greed. Would he have been as successful? Or would he have been defeated a lot sooner?

[The Grim Squeaker]

Also, Sauron using the Nazgul and trying to corrupt the dwarves was his plan B. The rings were originally intended for the elves, and he was hoping to enslave them all and capture their kingdoms intact. The elves were the most powerful race in Middle-Earth at the time, and Sauron wanted to control them. It was only after his scheme had failed that he decided to destroy the elves and take the rings by force. Which is why Celebrimor should have destroyed them, but obviously he didn't. As was stated by others, pride was probably the reason why he didn't make the rational choice. I think he was Feanor's grandson if I remember correctly... so ya. In hindsight, I suppose what was more surprising was that he didn't immediately march on the Black Gate and challenge Sauron to a fight.

Well, if we're using "movie canon", then the game "Shadows of Mordor" has him as doing exactly that .
(Steals the ring, raises his own army... and gets slapped down HARD by Sauron)

[Ted C]

I think Gil-Galad and Elendil established conclusively that the Ring didn't make Sauron invincible.

But it did. Without the Ring, Isildur would have looted cold corpse. As it was, Ring anchored Sauron in Middle Earth, allowing him to regenerate later.

Yeah, Isildur blew the chance to finish him off, but that didn't make Sauron any less defeated by Gil-Galad and Elendil. Sauron had meant to conquer the world then, but he LOST.

The rings were a ploy to get other people to do a lot of his work for him, and then reap the rewards easily sometime later.

[Guardsman Bass]

I'll third that point. Just because Sauron could have potentially won a massive military conflict to take over Middle-Earth doesn't mean he didn't want to do it in an easier, more bloodless way. It's control and domination he wants, not mass destruction. And of course, this was "only" 1500 years after the end of the First Age, when the Valar showed up in force to kick Morgoth's ass and save the Elves - the Valar were still physically on Earth in the Second Age.

[Irbis]

The One being a soul jar was probably an unintended side-effect. I doubt Sauron took into account "what would happen if someone killed me?" when he made it.

When you're Evil Overlord, anything that can change the 'adventurers loot my dead corpse' outcome to 'I can try again a bit later' is a Good Thing™.

I wonder how things would have played out had the Seven and the Nine been destroyed? Obviously the ring-wraiths wouldn't have been around, and the dwarven kingdoms wouldn't have been so prone to greed. Would he have been as successful? Or would he have been defeated a lot sooner?

Seeing elves did not put themselves into the Ring, they probably put the thing that let them stay in Middle Earth - magic. Destruction of the rings would probably considerably hasten their departure and turning the ME into magic-less Earth.

Or not, seeing Tolkien only ever bothered about languages and morality but didn't gave a damn about setting any rules how magic worked. We know elves could effortlessly make magic rings, that, albeit toys compared to Rings of Power, were nevertheless very useful (Gandalf initially took the One in Hobbit as such toy ring). This begs the question why every elf didn't have 10 different rings to give them the edge so presumably even 'effortless' creation did incur some cost, and whatever that cost was, Rings of Power did incur considerably greater investment and destroying them could have been shooting yourself in the foot. Or not. Maybe.

This also begs the question how Sauron recovered the rings. Couldn't elves just give the 16 to bearers of the three? They had 27 free fingers among them unless I missed something so it couldn't be that

[Lord Revan]

I seem to recall that human and dwarven rings were "tained by Sauron's hand" somehow, I don't they ever went into details but it's said only the 3 were "pure" in a sense

[Ted C]

I seem to recall that human and dwarven rings were "tained by Sauron's hand" somehow, I don't they ever went into details but it's said only the 3 were "pure" in a sense

Sauron was personally involved in the creation of the 16 "human and dwarven" rings, so they were more vulnerable to his influence. He was not personally involved in the creation of the 3 "elven" rings, so they didn't have whatever "taint" he may have put into the others.

Supposedly there were a great many "lesser rings" made, presumably when the elves were learning the craft from Sauron. How many is an open question: dozens? hundreds? Presumably not so many that every elf would be wearing one. That, or their power really is pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Also, they are presumably tainted by Sauron's influence, as well, and anyone who had one either got rid of it or became a slave of Sauron when he put on the One Ring.

[Irbis]

Supposedly there were a great many "lesser rings" made, presumably when the elves were learning the craft from Sauron. How many is an open question: dozens? hundreds? Presumably not so many that every elf would be wearing one. That, or their power really is pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Also, they are presumably tainted by Sauron's influence, as well, and anyone who had one either got rid of it or became a slave of Sauron when he put on the One Ring.

Alternatively: these great Human and Elven warriors that in Tolkien mythos always stand up to dragons, balrogs, werewolves and other crap? All had dozen enchanted items warding them specifically against evil creatures. Gil-galad having a pair of +5 rings of protection would go long way towards explaining how exactly he could stand up to Sauron. Similarly, Saruman failed where Gandalf did not thanks to elven +5 Will Save bonus from ring. It's just never mentioned as the tales are glorifying propaganda and the lonely barely armed heroes look better without all the inconvenient details

[Tribble]

I wonder how things would have played out had the Seven and the Nine been destroyed? Obviously the ring-wraiths wouldn't have been around, and the dwarven kingdoms wouldn't have been so prone to greed. Would he have been as successful? Or would he have been defeated a lot sooner?

Seeing elves did not put themselves into the Ring, they probably put the thing that let them stay in Middle Earth - magic. Destruction of the rings would probably considerably hasten their departure and turning the ME into magic-less Earth.

The Seven and the Nine were never really used by the Elves, since Sauron captured them not long after he made the One. I don't think their destruction would have impacted the Elves' fading. IMO the Three didn't have an impact during the Second Age either seeing as they were hidden and not used until after Sauron lost the One.

I assume that Sauron would have still attacked and leveled Eregion even if the Seven and Nine had been destroyed. After that though, anything goes. Would he have been as successful without the ring-wraiths, and without having the dwarves succumb to gold-lust? One would logically assume that he would have been beaten sooner, but on the other hand Sauron may have been holding back as his ideal scenario was to conquer with leaving as much of middle-earth intact as possible. Without the Seven and the Nine he may have simply gone for a scorched earth policy instead.

[Simon_Jester]

Or not, seeing Tolkien only ever bothered about languages and morality but didn't gave a damn about setting any rules how magic worked. We know elves could effortlessly make magic rings, that, albeit toys compared to Rings of Power, were nevertheless very useful (Gandalf initially took the One in Hobbit as such toy ring). This begs the question why every elf didn't have 10 different rings to give them the edge so presumably even 'effortless' creation did incur some cost, and whatever that cost was...

I don't think the word 'effortless' was used.

If we talk about artifacts of the elves that have magical properties and can be made on a more or less routine basis, we're in the realm of elven boats, rope, traveling bread, cloaks, and boots. Items that are very good at being what they are, arguably supernaturally so- but which lack flashy and impressive powers like turning you outright invisible.

Take the elven cloaks, which are at least sort of like a cloak of true invisibility. But they're not really as good for a number of reasons- you can't wear one and walk around right in front of someone and expect to go unseen. And yet these were still made personally by Galadriel and her handmaidens, which suggests that they're not easy for the elves to mass-produce.

So if magical rings were ever ubiquitous among the elves, it was when they had craftsmen greater than any who still live in the Third Age.

[Patroklos]

Sauron was personally involved in the creation of the 16 "human and dwarven" rings, so they were more vulnerable to his influence.

Its stated pretty clearly that the dwarven rings did not work as intended or the same. Sauron couldn't influence them through the rings like he could the Nine or presumably the Three, though the rings obviously had an effect on them by themselves. Whether that was as intended or not is unknown.

There are still three dwarvish rings out there. I assume they diminished after Sauron's death as well.

[Ted C]

Sauron was personally involved in the creation of the 16 "human and dwarven" rings, so they were more vulnerable to his influence.

Its stated pretty clearly that the dwarven rings did not work as intended or the same. Sauron couldn't influence them through the rings like he could the Nine or presumably the Three, though the rings obviously had an effect on them by themselves. Whether that was as intended or not is unknown.

There are still three dwarvish rings out there. I assume they diminished after Sauron's death as well.

The problem wasn't the rings, but the dwarves. Aule had made the dwarves resistant to the kind of control Sauron intended to use.

The three rings of the elves lost their power when the One was destroyed.

[SpottedKitty]

There are still three dwarvish rings out there. I assume they diminished after Sauron's death as well.

I'm not so sure of that. At one point, Gandalf (I think) does mention that of the Seven, four were destroyed by fire-breathing dragons and three recaptured by Sauron; the last of those being held by Thrain until it was taken from him in Dol Guldur. Most likely the surviving rings were held in Barad-dur, so when everything went wahoonie-shaped for Sauron, they were most likely destroyed as well.

[Tribble]

There are still three dwarvish rings out there. I assume they diminished after Sauron's death as well.

I'm not so sure of that. At one point, Gandalf (I think) does mention that of the Seven, four were destroyed by fire-breathing dragons and three recaptured by Sauron; the last of those being held by Thrain until it was taken from him in Dol Guldur. Most likely the surviving rings were held in Barad-dur, so when everything went wahoonie-shaped for Sauron, they were most likely destroyed as well.

And even if they survived the destruction of Bara-dur, their powers would have failed.

Also, it's not entirely clear if the Nine were on the Nazgul, or if Sauron kept them. Gandalf stated at the council of Elrond "the Nine the Nazgul keep" but I believe there are other statements that Sauron actually had physical possession. When the Witch-King was killed there was no mention made of his ring, which leads to think it was the ladder rather than the former. It wouldn't make sense for them to just leave one of the Nine lying about. Perhaps the Nazguls' lifeforce had been tied to the None for so long that they no longer needed to wear them? I guess the connection isn't 100% foolproof though; the combo of elven blade to leg and sword through face was clearly sufficient to break it.

[Terralthra]

Gandalf said in the council that Sauron "has gathered the Nine to himself", but that could be a metaphorical gathering, rather than physical possession. "Sauron has reasserted control over his Nine human lieutenants", for example.

[Tribble]

In which case, what happened to the Witch King's ring? I suppose Gandalf took it and hid it without anyone noticing?

[Tiriol]

snip

Perhaps the Nazguls' lifeforce had been tied to the None for so long that they no longer needed to wear them? I guess the connection isn't 100% foolproof though; the combo of elven blade to leg and sword through face was clearly sufficient to break it.

I think that there's a Tolkien quote lying around that states that Sauron could have brought the Witch-king back, given time, but obviously that didn't come to pass. Whether it was because Sauron had the specific Ring of Power for the Witch-king and as such had access to his life-force or soul or because Sauron truly had powers to bring people back from beyond in a state of undeath was not specified.

And NecronLord, thanks for the clarifying quote about Sauron's strength!

[Patroklos]

There are still three dwarvish rings out there. I assume they diminished after Sauron's death as well.

I'm not so sure of that. At one point, Gandalf (I think) does mention that of the Seven, four were destroyed by fire-breathing dragons and three recaptured by Sauron; the last of those being held by Thrain until it was taken from him in Dol Guldur. Most likely the surviving rings were held in Barad-dur, so when everything went wahoonie-shaped for Sauron, they were most likely destroyed as well.

Barad-dur collapsed, it didn't get sucked into a black hole. They should still be there under a pile of rubble. The only post Sauron rings we see are the three and they don't work the same way so we really don't know.

Also, it's not entirely clear if the Nine were on the Nazgul, or if Sauron kept them. Gandalf stated at the council of Elrond "the Nine the Nazgul keep" but I believe there are other statements that Sauron actually had physical possession. When the Witch-King was killed there was no mention made of his ring, which leads to think it was the ladder rather than the former. It wouldn't make sense for them to just leave one of the Nine lying about. Perhaps the Nazguls' lifeforce had been tied to the None for so long that they no longer needed to wear them? I guess the connection isn't 100% foolproof though; the combo of elven blade to leg and sword through face was clearly sufficient to break it.

Would he though, if it was indeed on the Witch-Kings person? Its man's lust for power that Sauron used to lure the nine into his service in the first place, it might be tempting for a hero of the LOTRs to take it for his own. Boromir, for instance, knew the One Ring was tainted but it didn't stop him from trying to claim and use it for that very purpose.

[Bedlam]

I wonder what the exact state of the Ring Wraiths is, if I remember the true power of humans was that they were not tied to earth and their souls ascended to heaven upon death and this gift was given to then directly from the over-god of the pantheon. It seems unlikely that Sauron could over rule that imperative given his comparatively low stature so did the ring wraiths actually still have their souls or are they more like recordings of the original humans?

[Ted C]

I wonder what the exact state of the Ring Wraiths is, if I remember the true power of humans was that they were not tied to earth and their souls ascended to heaven upon death and this gift was given to then directly from the over-god of the pantheon. It seems unlikely that Sauron could over rule that imperative given his comparatively low stature so did the ring wraiths actually still have their souls or are they more like recordings of the original humans?

As far as I know, they were transformed into wraiths over time in much the way that Frodo was being turned into one by the fragment of a Morgul blade in his body. The Ringwraiths aren't dead, just transformed.

[Ted C]

I notice that they never really addressed the fact that Erebor grew so wealthy because Thror (and later Thrain) was packing one of the seven Dwarf rings.

Well, damn. Apparently it *is* referenced in a deleted scene.