The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)

[SpottedKitty]

I don't know that adding in a magic ring that has some vaguely defined ability to make you rich would've enhanced the story and it probably would've just added confusion, e.g. people thinking that Thorin's gold fever was due to the ring or somesuch.

I'm sure I remember coming across several outright statements that the effect of the Seven on dwarves was to make them desire gold, not just magically "become rich". Of course, this wasn't quite what Sauron intended when he gave the rings to the Dwarf Lords, but since he didn't realise just how stubborn little so-and-sos the dwarves were, his "seek power, serve Me" enchantment that had worked so well with the Nine went just a little bit adrift.

[Tribble]

A funny thought just occurred to me. When Sauron created the One Ring the Elves immediately realised what was going on and took off their rings. Fair enough, but why didn't they destroy them? They were certainly capable of doing so. If Celebrimor had destroyed the rings right off the bat the One Ring would have been rendered entirely useless before Sauron even got the chance to use it! Remember that Sauron invaded years after he demanded that the rings be handed voer to him, so it's not like they were in a rush or anything. Why did they take the chance that Sauron would invade and take the rings by force? They knew they couldn't use the rings, so what was the point in keeping them if all that did was make them a target?

[Lord Revan]

are they really capable of destroying the power rings, it's made pretty clear that the power rings are way more then just a fancy ring with a pretty gem and it would take alot more to destroy one then it takes to destroy a normal ring.

[Tribble]

Well, one would think that the elven smiths who created the Rings of Power would have been capable of destroying them. Certainly Celebrimor should have been able to do so, if not others. Only the One Ring would have been beyond the power of the elves of eregion to destroy, as that was made by Sauron himself in Mt. Doom. If Celebrimor had a working brain, he would have destroyed the lot of them so that Sauron's plan would have been a total failure. It's not like he could use any of them while the One Ring was in Sauron's possession anyways.

[SpottedKitty]

When Sauron created the One Ring the Elves immediately realised what was going on and took off their rings. Fair enough, but why didn't they destroy them?

IIRC part of what Sauron did when he taught the Eregion smiths how to make the Rings of Power was how to put their own vitality as Elves into the rings. They were trapped in the same snare as Sauron after he lost the One — if the Three were destroyed (setting aside for a moment whether they could have) then Team Elf would lose all their heavy hitters. And that's exactly what happened after the One was actually destroyed and Sauron defeated; the Three lost all their power and the fading of the elves went even faster. If that had happened while Sauron still had the One, at pretty much the height of his strength, he would have won easily. The bearers of the Three were stuck; they didn't dare use them, and they couldn't afford to try destroying them.

[Tribble]

When Sauron created the One Ring the Elves immediately realised what was going on and took off their rings. Fair enough, but why didn't they destroy them?

IIRC part of what Sauron did when he taught the Eregion smiths how to make the Rings of Power was how to put their own vitality as Elves into the rings. They were trapped in the same snare as Sauron after he lost the One — if the Three were destroyed (setting aside for a moment whether they could have) then Team Elf would lose all their heavy hitters. And that's exactly what happened after the One was actually destroyed and Sauron defeated; the Three lost all their power and the fading of the elves went even faster. If that had happened while Sauron still had the One, at pretty much the height of his strength, he would have won easily. The bearers of the Three were stuck; they didn't dare use them, and they couldn't afford to try destroying them.

Assuming that was a requirement, Celebrimor was solely responsible for the Three Rings. Galadriel, Elrond, Gil-galad and Celeborn etc had nothing to do with the creation of the Rings of Power, and their vitality would not have gone into them.

The loss of the Three would have been heavy for sure. But when Sauron first forged the One Ring the elves were still in possession of the Seven and the Nine. Destroying the lot of them would have been the best option as it would have ensured that Sauron would never be able to get use out of any of them. Or if the Three were absolutely essential to keep, then the elves should have at the very least destroyed the Seven and the Nine, which would have prevented Sauron from using them against the dwarves and Men respectively. Without the Seven and the Nine Sauron would have been much easier to deal with, and the One Ring's usefulness would have been greatly diminished. The fact that they tried to keep all the Rings of Power despite knowing that Sauron would eventually come for them with overwhelming force seems pretty risky, if not outright stupid.

[Lord Revan]

we know that who ever posses the One Ring cannot willingly destroy it, so it's not totally impossible that other rings of power had something similar.

[Simon_Jester]

Could someone walk me through the reasoning behind "destroying the Three would have neutralized the One?"

[Guardsman Bass]

I think they just couldn't bring themselves to destroy the Three, especially if there was a chance they might get to use them again. Certainly they used them again as soon as they could, like with Galadriel.

[Terralthra]

I think the implication is not just the Three, but the Nine and the Seven as well. At the time Sauron created the One and the bearers of the Three felt his influence, the elves were still in possession of all 19. Sauron intended them to all be worn by elves, not men or dwarves. After he realized that the bearers of the Three took theirs off, he made war on the elves. They hid the Three, but he managed to acquire the Seven and the Nine at that time.

So, the question is, why didn't the elves destroy all of the Three, Seven, and Nine before Sauron acquired them?

[Serafina]

Essentially the rings worked by putting part of the essence of something inside them.
The Elves mostly chose the essence of Middle-Earth, in order to preserve it. Putting it inside a small yet near indestructible trinket would have shielded it against corruption and decay, in addition to allowing the wearer greater control over it.

But due to that reason, destroying the rings would also mean diminishing Middle-Earth.

[Tribble]

True, but you would think that given the option between Middle-Earth diminishing or the Rings falling into the hands of Sauron, the elves would has chosen the former over the ladder. Celebrimor's interrogation should have gone something like this:

Sauron: Where are the Rings of Power?
Celebrimor: I destroyed them all the moment I found out what your plan was.
Sauron: ... but without the Rings of Power, Middle-Earth will be diminished!
Celebrimor: That's still a hell of a lot better than you getting a hold of them! What, do you think I'm stupid or something?
Sauron: ...
Celebrimor: Fuck you Sauron!

[Kingmaker]

So, the question is, why didn't the elves destroy all of the Three, Seven, and Nine before Sauron acquired them?

I don't think it's a given that they could've easily destroyed them. Getting rid of the One Ring was obviously a bit of an ordeal, and the dwarf rings apparently required dragon fire to destroy. It may be they never had a chance to destroy them. Or, as I note below, they may not have wanted to.

That's still a hell of a lot better than you getting a hold of them! What, do you think I'm stupid or something?

Have you met these people? Remember, this is the same group of people that went to war over the Silmarils. The Noldor are very attached to their creations, and they can be a tad overconfident.

I'm sure I remember coming across several outright statements that the effect of the Seven on dwarves was to make them desire gold, not just magically "become rich".

They did make the wearers greedier, but they also had some unspecified ability to create wealth. In any event, it wouldn't have been much of a ring of power if it didn't do anything.

[Gandalf]

Holy hell did that film fall down. The death of Smaug was the action opening sequence? Fucking hell PJ.

The rest was at best, a mess.

They did make the wearers greedier, but they also had some unspecified ability to create wealth. In any event, it wouldn't have been much of a ring of power if it didn't do anything.

I always interpreted it as basically being a ring that essentially gave +2 to luck. So whenever the wearer decided to start a mine, they would pick the right mountain, and so on.

[Purple]

I always interpreted it as basically being a ring that essentially gave +2 to luck. So whenever the wearer decided to start a mine, they would pick the right mountain, and so on.

I always thought it was basically a case of superior greed breeding superior ambition breeding superior willingness to go the extra mile downward in search of stuff you really should not be looking for.

[Guardsman Bass]

Holy hell did that film fall down. The death of Smaug was the action opening sequence? Fucking hell PJ.

I'm glad someone else didn't like that sequence.

. . . I don't know, it just annoyed me that Smaug wasn't slain in mid-flight, coming down for another pass. They set up the whole thing with the Dwarvish Windlance, Girion firing away at Smaug in mid-flight, the Windlance being atop a tower in Laketown in Desolation of Smaug - and then have him get hit while he's monologuing away on the "ground" walking towards Bard and his son, an easy target?

The dragon swooped once more lower than ever, and as he turned and dived down his belly glittered white with sparkling fires of gems in the moon— but not in one place. The great bow twanged. The black arrow sped straight from the string, straight for the hollow by the left breast where the foreleg was flung wide. In it smote and vanished, barb, shaft and feather, so fierce was its flight. With a shriek that deafened men, felled trees and split stone, Smaug shot spouting into the air , turned over and crashed down from on high in ruin.

Tolkien, J.R.R. (2012-02-15). The Hobbit (p. 251).

Granted, once he was hit by the arrow, Smaug's death was pretty good.

[Ted C]

I don't know that adding in a magic ring that has some vaguely defined ability to make you rich would've enhanced the story and it probably would've just added confusion, e.g. people thinking that Thorin's gold fever was due to the ring or somesuch.

Not sure if it would cause such confusion. Thorin clearly didn't have a Ring of Power and never did. Sauron got it back from Thrain sometime after the fall of Erebor.

[Ted C]

I always interpreted it as basically being a ring that essentially gave +2 to luck. So whenever the wearer decided to start a mine, they would pick the right mountain, and so on.

I always thought it was basically a case of superior greed breeding superior ambition breeding superior willingness to go the extra mile downward in search of stuff you really should not be looking for.

Remembering that the rings were originally made by elves for elves, their main feature is their power to preserve things. Rivendell and Lothlorien are examples of what a ring of power can do when used to "found a kingdom". Both places are protected from corruption and invasion (although not invulnerable, to be sure).

The rings apparently also give the wearer a "charisma bonus", which allows them to attract and inspire large numbers of followers. Thus, a kingdom founded by a ringbearer will have a large, loyal populace.

These powers would have served Thror well in the building of Erebor. Lots of dwarves come into his service, and they cheerfully put lots of work into the mining, smithing, and construction. Because of Thror's "superior leadership", Erebor quickly became the wealthiest of the dwarf kingdoms.

Then along came Smaug.

[Patroklos]

So this makes me think of why the One Ring was so important in the first place. If the original plan was to use it as a conduit to corrupt and conquer via the other rings then it appears is usefulness was pretty much moot by the LOTR events. The nine had already been corrupted and coopted, the dwarvish rings did not work as they were supposed to anyway, and the elven rings were not corrupting as intended either after they were cautioned by sensing Sauron's presence. Despite maintaining the nine as the nazgrul its purpose had come and gone.

If the one ring is so powerful all by itself that it makes Sauron unbeatable in the Third Age (as is the fear and purpose of the whole fellowship enterprise) when all the subordinate rings were nonissues why didn't he just create it by itself in the first place and not worry about all the others?

In the end he didn't even need the ring to be victorious, he was well on his way without it before his destruction laid his forces low, but that just begs the question as to why he made it in the first place once again if it just becomes a physical handicap that presumably didn't exist before its creation.

[Ted C]

If the one ring is so powerful all by itself that it makes Sauron unbeatable in the Third Age (as is the fear and purpose of the whole fellowship enterprise) when all the subordinate rings were nonissues why didn't he just create it by itself in the first place and not worry about all the others?

When Sauron taught the elves how to make the rings of power, he was a prisoner, lacking a power base of his own. By giving the elves rings with which to build their own "empires", he was planning a long game. The rings would build up kingdoms that he would be able to quickly overcome with his own ring of power, allowing him to achieve power quickly once he was in a position to forge his planned Ruling Ring.

[Patroklos]

Was he a prisoner?

By about SA 1500, Sauron put on a fair visage in the Second Age, and calling himself Annatar, the "Lord of Gifts", he befriended the Elvish smiths of Eregion, and counseled them in arts and magic. Not all the Elves trusted him, particularly Lady Galadriel, Elrond, and Gil-galad, High King of the Ñoldor.

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Annatar

I don't think he was a prisoner. In fact the wiki (I know) already has Mordor active again while all the ring crafting is going in.

Yeah but the elves later built up kingdoms with them anyway outside his ring's influence (Lorien/Rivendell) and there was no suggestion that he couldn't have destroyed them conventionally all by himself without his ring. Galandriel outright says that. Sauron makes his ring, the most powerful one, all by himself at Mt. Doom later so he doesn't need the elves for crafting. So why not just do that in the first place? I suppose we could say he didn't know how outright powerful his ring would be and that explains it somewhat. Still, the plot makes more sense if the one rings power is actually to "rule them all" instead of "rule them all, sure, but also makes me invincible too so who gives a shit about that?"

And if Sauron can overwhelm elven kingdoms like Lothlorien who have a ring of power on their side (unlike Eregion) all by his naked finger self again what's the point? The ring just became a new weakness.

[Ted C]

Was he a prisoner?

By about SA 1500, Sauron put on a fair visage in the Second Age, and calling himself Annatar, the "Lord of Gifts", he befriended the Elvish smiths of Eregion, and counseled them in arts and magic. Not all the Elves trusted him, particularly Lady Galadriel, Elrond, and Gil-galad, High King of the Ñoldor.

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Annatar

I don't think he was a prisoner. In fact the wiki (I know) already has Mordor active again while all the ring crafting is going in.

Yeah but the elves later built up kingdoms with them anyway outside his ring's influence (Lorien/Rivendell) and there was no suggestion that he couldn't have destroyed them conventionally all by himself without his ring. Galandriel outright says that. Sauron makes his ring, the most powerful one, all by himself at Mt. Doom later so he doesn't need the elves for crafting. So why not just do that in the first place? I suppose we could say he didn't know how outright powerful his ring would be and that explains it somewhat. Still, the plot makes more sense if the one rings power is actually to "rule them all" instead of "rule them all, sure, but also makes me invincible too so who gives a shit about that?"

And if Sauron can overwhelm elven kingdoms like Lothlorien who have a ring of power on their side (unlike Eregion) all by his naked finger self again what's the point? The ring just became a new weakness.

I must have my timeline wrong. I thought that the rings were made after the fall of Numenor.

[Gandalf]

So this makes me think of why the One Ring was so important in the first place. If the original plan was to use it as a conduit to corrupt and conquer via the other rings then it appears is usefulness was pretty much moot by the LOTR events. The nine had already been corrupted and coopted, the dwarvish rings did not work as they were supposed to anyway, and the elven rings were not corrupting as intended either after they were cautioned by sensing Sauron's presence. Despite maintaining the nine as the nazgrul its purpose had come and gone.

If the one ring is so powerful all by itself that it makes Sauron unbeatable in the Third Age (as is the fear and purpose of the whole fellowship enterprise) when all the subordinate rings were nonissues why didn't he just create it by itself in the first place and not worry about all the others?

In the end he didn't even need the ring to be victorious, he was well on his way without it before his destruction laid his forces low, but that just begs the question as to why he made it in the first place once again if it just becomes a physical handicap that presumably didn't exist before its creation.

The Ring had other benefits. Since Barad-dûr had been built "using the power of the Ring," at the end of the Second Age the Last Alliance were unable to destroy its foundations because the Ring still existed.

[Ted C]

Still, the plot makes more sense if the one rings power is actually to "rule them all" instead of "rule them all, sure, but also makes me invincible too so who gives a shit about that?"

I think Gil-Galad and Elendil established conclusively that the Ring didn't make Sauron invincible.

[Irbis]

I think Gil-Galad and Elendil established conclusively that the Ring didn't make Sauron invincible.

But it did. Without the Ring, Isildur would have looted cold corpse. As it was, Ring anchored Sauron in Middle Earth, allowing him to regenerate later.

As for power to dominate other rings being useless, please. 9 absolutely loyal lieutenants led by someone capable of matching boosted Gandalf the White? Do you know how powerful that asset was even if One had no other powers? 7 dwarf kingdoms founded in places where king could enrich himself, not in places good in defence? If not for Gandalf, Smaug and Balrog would enrich Sauron with two absolutely massive treasures for bribing and equipping army. Not an asset either?