The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)

[LadyTevar]

Just saw the movie today.

I do not agree with your complaints, but for the ones about "Alfred" the sleazeball. I kept waiting for an Orc or Troll to smash him flat in a semi-comical ending. At least the gold-loving Master got demolished by Smaug's corpse. Ironic, that.

I think, while the story is called "The Hobbit", this became more about Thorin -- his travels and travails, his fall into madness and redemption. This isn't a bad thing, imho. Bilbo is our eyes, watching from the 'outside', as well as the 'simple honest folk' that Gandalf so adores. Bilbo is the voice of reason, the foil to Thorin, and I think it worked very well indeed.

Now, there were many moments I enjoyed.

1. Bard in the bell tower. The only man there who tried to stop the dragon. Smaug's taunting was chilling, and I think he was highly amused that Bard was still trying to fight, even when it seemed hopeless. I just wish they'd used the Ballista that had been shown in the last movie. Waste of a good Chekov's Gun, imho.

2. The gift of the Mithril chain. That was touching, it let the 'old' Thorin emerge... and made the slip into Dragon/Gold Madness even more terrifying. The addition of Smaug's voice just added to the chills down my spine. Balin was right when he told Bilbo it was better the Arkenstone not be found, espcially when it's clear to see he saw past Bilbo's rambling to understand just where it was.

3. Galadriel vs Sauron. *whistles* Yes, she went full "Queen, all will love me and despair", but if you pay attention, look at what's in her hand. She's holding a Flask. A glowing flask, very much like the one she gave to Samwise Gamgee to "help him in dark places". Despite using some of her power to heal/wake Gandalf (which was why he wanted her to leave with him, he knew she didn't have her full strength), she faced down Sauron with a Ring of Power, a Flask of Earandil's Light, and the willpower of an Elf who'd seen The Trees before they were cut down. It may have left her weak as a kitten, but she did it.

4. Dwarven Shieldwall. As someone who's seen shieldwalls and spears used on the field of battle, Hell YEAH they got that right. It came together fast, and it would have stopped the Orcs likes horses on pikes. The Elves using the Dwarves as stepping stones to jump the wall was just icing on the cake -- Thranduil wanting his people to have 'first blood' over the dwarves. It still made me cheer, because the visual was simply awesome. I know some SCA fighters who will now be dying to try that. We already have the shieldwall down pat.

5. Battle of the Five Armies, overall.
Orcs using Battle-flags to signal maneuvers. Orcs, Elves, Men, and Dwarves clashing in a grand melee that you could barely follow. Laketown's people faring better in the city battle (tight spaces do favor those who know the area). The Eagles swooping in and using their talons like fists to bowl over the Orcs. Beorn sky-diving, then barreling through Orcs like a bulldozer. Dain, able to headbutt an Orc dead (yes, I liked that bit, comic as it was). Even Bilbo bloodied Sting a couple times, although he seemed to do better with rocks to the head. Until he got knocked out, that is.
I swear, it was like Grand Melee at Pennsic War!

6. The Death of the House of Thror. Fili, I wonder if you got to kill any of them before your capture. I was on the edge of my seat, not wanting to see what was coming. Kili, running to avenge your twin, sidetracked by love. I actually wished it could have worked out, even as I thought it would be poetic if Tauriel died killing your killer. Thorin, your madness gone, but the shared hatred between you and Azog meant nothing but Death. I knew the iced over falls would not kill your foe, and I saw you recognize the only way to win was to take the blow. Hail Thorin Oakenshield, King Under the Mountain. In dying, you won it all.

[Civil War Man]

1. Bard in the bell tower. The only man there who tried to stop the dragon. Smaug's taunting was chilling, and I think he was highly amused that Bard was still trying to fight, even when it seemed hopeless. I just wish they'd used the Ballista that had been shown in the last movie. Waste of a good Chekov's Gun, imho.

There are a lot of moments in the movie that I didn't particularly like, but this was actually the one scene that bugged me the most. It was shaping up to be one of the better scenes, with the David and Goliath feel, Smaug's taunting, Bard's desperation and perseverance.

Then it had Bard use his son as a bow. It was mind-bogglingly silly, but was treated with po-faced seriousness, with no sign that anyone was aware of how absurd it was. It was like someone accidentally shuffled a page from a long-lost Monty Python skit into the script, but no one noticed. The fact that it turned all the time they spent foreshadowing the ballista and black arrow in the previous movie into filler is just icing on the cake.

[Serafina]

3. Galadriel vs Sauron. *whistles* Yes, she went full "Queen, all will love me and despair", but if you pay attention, look at what's in her hand. She's holding a Flask. A glowing flask, very much like the one she gave to Samwise Gamgee to "help him in dark places". Despite using some of her power to heal/wake Gandalf (which was why he wanted her to leave with him, he knew she didn't have her full strength), she faced down Sauron with a Ring of Power, a Flask of Earandil's Light, and the willpower of an Elf who'd seen The Trees before they were cut down. It may have left her weak as a kitten, but she did it.

Definitely the best scene in the movie.

Back during the LotR-trilogy movies, a few friends of mine thought that Galadriels statement that with the One Ring, she could overthrow Sauron only to be just as bad was just empty boasting.
Which is somewhat understandable if you have no clue about her background. My reply was just "hell no - she's older than the sun and the moon for Erus sake, she has fought in wars where Sauron was just the second-in-command who got bitch-slapped around by several Elves and even Men. It's not empty boasting". And i think they showed that pretty well.

Of course it also helped that those scenes were not interrupted by a pointless comic relief character. Radagast certainly worked as comic relief in previous movies - but guess what, he has an actual impact on the story and comes across as serious in serious situations.

[Tiriol]

3. Galadriel vs Sauron. *whistles* Yes, she went full "Queen, all will love me and despair", but if you pay attention, look at what's in her hand. She's holding a Flask. A glowing flask, very much like the one she gave to Samwise Gamgee to "help him in dark places". Despite using some of her power to heal/wake Gandalf (which was why he wanted her to leave with him, he knew she didn't have her full strength), she faced down Sauron with a Ring of Power, a Flask of Earandil's Light, and the willpower of an Elf who'd seen The Trees before they were cut down. It may have left her weak as a kitten, but she did it.

On this I disagree heavily. Tolkien has noted that only Gandalf the White with the One Ring had any chances of truly facing and defeating Sauron. Galadriel is immensely powerful, but Tolkien also noted that her kingdom would have fallen had Sauron personally come to wage battle against the Lady of the Wood. Galadriel is, however, one of those still living in Middle-earth who could face Sauron and not be immediately vanquished, but her winning Sauron in a straight-up fight just doesn't cut it for me, especially with the Nine (whom she had been scared of just moments before) also returning. If the movie would have shown the entire White Council, not just Elf-Samira, facing Sauron and forcing him to retreat, it would be another matter entirely (and even then the books noted that Sauron had for long planned his return to Mordor and the attack on Dol Guldur was either of no consequence in the long run or simply speeded up the schedule). While it was nice to see an Elf of truly epic power (besides arts of war), it cheapened Sauron as a villain, it was unbelievable to me and it also shows very odd sense of power scale when Galadriel can THROW Sauron all the way to Mordor but is scared witless by the Nine (even though she vanquishes them later on with just an after-thought).

[Bedlam]

I do wonder if the implication is supposed to be that he 'threw' the fight? He knew he probably couldn't take on the whole white council at once at the moment so he made himself look weak so they wouldn't go all out against him right away.

[SpottedKitty]

I do wonder if the implication is supposed to be that he 'threw' the fight?

That's the impression I always got, from... I think it was the synopsis of "the big fight at the end of the Third Age" chapter in The Silmarillion. Sauron had actually finished his preparations, so when the White Council came knocking at the gates of Dol Guldur he pretended to run away and hide. The Council didn't immediately realise he'd gone right back to Mordor and got to work rebuilding Barad-Dur.

[Guardsman Bass]

I think he actually left even before they showed up, although Gandalf did manage to confirm that it was Sauron earlier. Galadriel did however obliterate Dol Goldur, which makes for a rather awesome image.

[Tiriol]

I think he actually left even before they showed up, although Gandalf did manage to confirm that it was Sauron earlier. Galadriel did however obliterate Dol Goldur, which makes for a rather awesome image.

The destruction of Dol Guldur happened only after the Ring was destroyed, we simply don't know what the hell happened when the White Council moved to confront Sauron there during Bilbo's adventure. Not even if they even met Sauron or not; some writings suggest that Sauron had already moved when the White Council showed up, but we don't know for certain. At least the Council was initially at least sure enough that "the Necromancer" wouldn't cause too much trouble any time soon, as per Gandalf and Elrond's discussion during Bilbo's return to Hobbiton and his visit to Rivendell (in the book). Boy, were they wrong.

[Serafina]

Well she didn't really harm him.
Either he was still weak enough to be beaten.
Or he retreated - its not like there was much in Dol Guldur to fight for. As a trap for the White Council it was valuable, that trap had been sprung and turned out to be inefficient.

[Civil War Man]

Of course it also helped that those scenes were not interrupted by a pointless comic relief character. Radagast certainly worked as comic relief in previous movies - but guess what, he has an actual impact on the story and comes across as serious in serious situations.

Out of all of the things the movies added that weren't in the book, I think their depiction of Radagast was handled best. He was incredibly silly, but his odd behavior could easily be explained by his lack of interaction with civilization and possibly as an intentional ploy to get people to underestimate him, since whenever things became serious he was shown to be a very powerful wizard in his own right (bringing a dead hedgehog back to life and holding his own against a Ringwraith when he investigated Dol Guldur in the first movie). I thought it fit very well with how the wizards are generally described, in that they often acted strangely or took on an unassuming appearance as a way of concealing the full extent of their power from others. For they are subtle and quick to anger.

It helps that I also was intrigued by Radagast when I first read Lord of the Rings. The Hobbit had plenty of hints that Gandalf was incredibly powerful and a pretty big deal, and the inclusion of Radagast and Saruman revealed that there were more wizards like Gandalf, except Radagast remained largely a mystery since he only shows up for about one page.

[Elfdart]

I just liked the bunny sled:

[LadyTevar]

On this I disagree heavily. Tolkien has noted that only Gandalf the White with the One Ring had any chances of truly facing and defeating Sauron. Galadriel is immensely powerful, but Tolkien also noted that her kingdom would have fallen had Sauron personally come to wage battle against the Lady of the Wood. Galadriel is, however, one of those still living in Middle-earth who could face Sauron and not be immediately vanquished, but her winning Sauron in a straight-up fight just doesn't cut it for me, especially with the Nine (whom she had been scared of just moments before) also returning. If the movie would have shown the entire White Council, not just Elf-Samira, facing Sauron and forcing him to retreat, it would be another matter entirely (and even then the books noted that Sauron had for long planned his return to Mordor and the attack on Dol Guldur was either of no consequence in the long run or simply speeded up the schedule). While it was nice to see an Elf of truly epic power (besides arts of war), it cheapened Sauron as a villain, it was unbelievable to me and it also shows very odd sense of power scale when Galadriel can THROW Sauron all the way to Mordor but is scared witless by the Nine (even though she vanquishes them later on with just an after-thought).

The Nine + Sauron is deadly, Sauron + The One Ring even worse. Galadriel could not fight the Wraiths, as they had weapons and armor she had none. But once the Nine were disenbodied, like Sauron, she could blast them away. However, fighting Sauron, even disembodied and weakened, was a HUGE FIGHT. A demi-god facing a demon-god. She threw him out of the castle, but Elrond and Saruman both say Sauron "will retreat to Mordor". She did not, could not banish him there, Galadriel could only throw him out of the Forest.

[NecronLord]

On this I disagree heavily. Tolkien has noted that only Gandalf the White with the One Ring had any chances of truly facing and defeating Sauron. Galadriel is immensely powerful, but Tolkien also noted that her kingdom would have fallen had Sauron personally come to wage battle against the Lady of the Wood.

I believe you refer to Letter 246 "From a letter to Mrs Eileen Elgar (drafts) September 1963"

In his [Sauron's] actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn. In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance.

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond.

But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.

Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).
[The draft ends here. In the margin Tolkien wrote: 'Thus while Sauron multiplied [illegible word] evil, he left "good" clearly distinguishable from it. Gandalf would have made good detestable and seem evil.']

In that, he mentions that 'only Gandalf' having discussed Frodo and Aragorn, in response to a query about Frodo's failure to surrender the ring, and mentions 'very few others of equal stature.' Saruman is surely Gandalf's equal in innate power, if not goodness. Saruman who notably aids (or so I interpreted it) Galadriel in that scene.

Of course, it should be remembered that Sauron's powers are not imagined to have been wholly regenerated to the point they are by the time Tolkien discusses - when Frodo is in the Sammath Naur, and Sauron must therefore be less terrible at this point.

Nor does it wholly rule out Galadriel's ambition to overthrow Sauron by force; the use of armies to do so would be possible no doubt; Glorfindel overcame and destroyed a balrog, albeit at cost, so too did Ecthelion. The Sons of Fëanor sent all of the balrogs fleeing, and Sauron surrendered to Ar-Pharazon, no doubt a sufficiently skilled and disciplined army could destroy Sauron, as indeed they did during the Last Alliance.

[Guardsman Bass]

I just remembered that there is some serious dark humor there in Thranduill getting so many of his elves killed over a stupid reason that's 100% his fault. In Tolkien's unfinished works, Thranduill's father Oropher got himself and most of the Woodland Realm's military strength annihilated - basically, he told Gil-galad (the Noldor High-Elf King) to go fuck himself and led his army straight into battle at Dagorland well in advance of the other Last Alliance forces . . . only to get enveloped by Sauron's forces and slaughtered.

[Tribble]

I wonder if it's possible that Sauron recognized that the Three Rings were all present there? After all, while he did not create them his knowledge was used in their making. That and the fact that he had used the One Ring for many years before losing it.

Here is my interpretation of how things in the film may have played out (obviously it's very different than the novels). And I doubt that this was the filmmakers intention, I'm just trying to rationalise things a bit, so please bear with me.

In the films Sauron knows that the White Council are using the Three Rings. When Radgast shows up in the first film, Sauron sees an opportunity to lure the White Council in, kill them, and take the Three for himself. He reveals himself as "the Necromancer" and allows Radagst to leave with the Morgul blade as he knows that Radagast will inform the White Council. Sauron was originally hoping that the entire White Council would come to investigate due to the seriousness of the situation, but because of his "Necromancer" guise they would be a little over-confident and off guard. He would then spring the trap, and he thought that with the addition of his ring-wraiths he would have enough power to overwhelm the Council.

Alas, only Gandalf and Radgast re-appear, and Radagast promptly departs. This throws a wrench in Sauron's scheme. If Gandalf leaves without discovering him, then the whole exercise was useless. On the other hand, he can't simply kill Gandalf and take Narya; in the films it seems like the Three Rings have some kind of telepathic connection, and if Sauron were to do that Elrond and Galadriel might become aware of it and refuse to show up (or show up with far more force than Sauron could deal with). So he captures Gandalf instead.

This lures the rest of them out, as planned. Unfortunately for Sauron he overestimated his own strength and underestimated the strength of the others. Between Elrond/Saruman beating the ring-wraiths, Radagast's presence and Galadriel's show of force, Sauron realised that he wasn't ready to take all of them all at once, and so he fled.

[Ted C]

Alas, only Gandalf and Radgast re-appear, and Radagast promptly departs. This throws a wrench in Sauron's scheme. If Gandalf leaves without discovering him, then the whole exercise was useless. On the other hand, he can't simply kill Gandalf and take Narya; in the films it seems like the Three Rings have some kind of telepathic connection, and if Sauron were to do that Elrond and Galadriel might become aware of it and refuse to show up (or show up with far more force than Sauron could deal with). So he captures Gandalf instead.

I suppose that gives at least some reason why Sauron didn't just take Gandalf's ring while he was captured.

[Ted C]

I notice that they never really addressed the fact that Erebor grew so wealthy because Thror (and later Thrain) was packing one of the seven Dwarf rings.

[Patroklos]

I am pretty sure the only reference to the dwarvish rings are at the opening of the LOTR trilogy.

[Bedlam]

Alas, only Gandalf and Radgast re-appear, and Radagast promptly departs. This throws a wrench in Sauron's scheme. If Gandalf leaves without discovering him, then the whole exercise was useless. On the other hand, he can't simply kill Gandalf and take Narya; in the films it seems like the Three Rings have some kind of telepathic connection, and if Sauron were to do that Elrond and Galadriel might become aware of it and refuse to show up (or show up with far more force than Sauron could deal with). So he captures Gandalf instead.

I suppose that gives at least some reason why Sauron didn't just take Gandalf's ring while he was captured.

I'm not 100% sure of the time line but when did Gandalf get the ring from the ship wright guy? I thought it was after they were aware of Sauron?

[SpottedKitty]

I'm not 100% sure of the time line but when did Gandalf get the ring from the ship wright guy? I thought it was after they were aware of Sauron?

Cirdan met Gandalf when he arrived from the West (at Mithlond?) and gave him his Ring. He seems to have had a bit of foresight, and knew what Gandalf was, and knew he'd need it.

[Tribble]

Of course this makes one wonder why Saruman did not take Gandalf's ring when even in the books he's well aware of the fact that Gandalf has it, but I digress.

[Bedlam]

I'm not 100% sure of the time line but when did Gandalf get the ring from the ship wright guy? I thought it was after they were aware of Sauron?

Cirdan met Gandalf when he arrived from the West (at Mithlond?) and gave him his Ring. He seems to have had a bit of foresight, and knew what Gandalf was, and knew he'd need it.

Well being possibly the oldest living thing on middle earth (not counting embodied spirits) gives you some time to get some wisdom.

[Irbis]

At least the Council was initially at least sure enough that "the Necromancer" wouldn't cause too much trouble any time soon, as per Gandalf and Elrond's discussion during Bilbo's return to Hobbiton and his visit to Rivendell (in the book). Boy, were they wrong.

Didn't that bought them, what, century of peace between Hobbit and LotR?

Of course this makes one wonder why Saruman did not take Gandalf's ring when even in the books he's well aware of the fact that Gandalf has it, but I digress.

Perhaps the only way Gandalf would have surrendered it was over his dead body so he was mostly lucky Sauron/Saruman were unwilling to expend that much energy at the moment?

[Lord Revan]

IIRC Bilbo was 50 when the Hobbit happend so it would have been less then a century before Lord of the rings started (Bilbo was 110 was at the start of LOTR and while it's true (in the books at least) that it took a while for main part to start the war had started by that time though it was still rather small scale.)

[Kingmaker]

I notice that they never really addressed the fact that Erebor grew so wealthy because Thror (and later Thrain) was packing one of the seven Dwarf rings.

To be fair, the actual abilities of the rings (or of magically powerful people/things in general) is maddeningly vague in pretty much all of Tolkien's writings. I don't know that adding in a magic ring that has some vaguely defined ability to make you rich would've enhanced the story and it probably would've just added confusion, e.g. people thinking that Thorin's gold fever was due to the ring or somesuch.