Golem/robot-based economy (RAR)

[cntrational]

Suppose we have a standard medieval fantasy world, with magic.

Magic was normally restricted to mages, but is now slowly becoming available to everybody.. And along with that, comes the ability to create golems.

Golems are basically magical robots in this setting, and can be used to automate things. Creating golems that are equivalent to humans in intelligence requires complex specialist work, so are relatively rare. But creating lower-level golems for simple and specific tasks is easy.

So, it's now possible to kickstart the industrial revolution, but now automation is available immediately instead of being a later development.

How differently would society develop?

[Simon_Jester]

One key point is that if any educated person can make a golem, for a limited and reasonable investment of time and labor, control of the means of industrial production is more distributed. There is less incentive to create huge factories owned by capitalist enterprises.

Sort of like 3D printers only at a lower and cheaper level.

[LaCroix]

The problem is that you need someone to teach the golem how to do something. If you don't know how to e.g. join wood properly to create a good table, your golem won't, either. So we'll have specialist tradesmen - people skilled in a trade - who will train golems trained for certain task.

Those will then work, without need food or wages.

I see cutural problems arising - agricultural production will mostly be done by golems, soon. The need for heavy lifting and menial tasks is gone. You don'T even need work animals anymore, golems can carry a cart, too. Even the military will probably consist mostly of golems.

What will the average person do to earn their living?

[Purple]

Another thing to think about is maintenance. Do these golems require maintenance to function? A robot might require oil, spare parts etc. How much work does someone need to put into keeping a golem working?

[Crossroads Inc.]

This was already largely thought out at the end of the Discoworld book "Making money"
Several thousand golems were discovered, and when people started thinking of what they could do, the answer was:

"Well, they could ruin the economy of the whole city."

Seriously, People work so they have money to Buy food, clothes, and entertainment.
Golems don't really need ANY of those things.

You think this is automation, but automation works only in the context of a vast growing civilization. If this is supposed to be a "medieval" world setting, then most likely you have a very small population with an equally small economy. The introduction of golems suddenly doing things that are already done, is going to simply put everyone into the poorhouse except those at the very very top.

The best thing for golems are to do jobs NO ONE is doing. Giant construction projections, or lifting and moving things that would be physically impossible for normal people. Again, considering the time period, you could use the for huge civil engineering works as, that is something no one is really doing at the time.

So golems doing farm work? Bad...
Golems digging a tunnel through solid work before gunpowder was in use? Good!

[cntrational]

Another thing to think about is maintenance. Do these golems require maintenance to function? A robot might require oil, spare parts etc. How much work does someone need to put into keeping a golem working?

Their bodies presumably need repairs from time to time.

[LaCroix]

The only way to prevent such a collapse would be if a golem was, well, a golem. A stupid object capable of doing one thing, and in constant need of supervision. So the golem would do the work, but would need a handler who would stand beside him and say, "start hammering", "stop", "put it back into the fire at the right side", "take the left piece of iron from the fire". The golem does the work, the human takes care it it done right.

tldr; Modern analogy. The humans would be the computers controlling the physical robots.

[Patroklos]

Read Kiln People by David Brin.

It takes place in a modern society but most of its societal effects can be translated directly. They avoid a complete take over of the economy by having levels of golem (only expensive models can perform complex tasks) and them having a short shelf life (usually a day).

[Ted C]

"He who controls the golems controls the universe!"

[Ahriman238]

In 'Making Monet' didn't they bury all the golems to keep their neighbors from launching preemptive strikes (tireless, near-invulnerable army) and then announce that the Ankh-Morpork dollar would now be backed in golems?

[Simon_Jester]

I see cutural problems arising - agricultural production will mostly be done by golems, soon. The need for heavy lifting and menial tasks is gone. You don'T even need work animals anymore, golems can carry a cart, too. Even the military will probably consist mostly of golems.

What will the average person do to earn their living?

The same thing will presumably happen that happened in real life: people will become clerks, retail staff, service providers, GT (Golem Technology) technicians, and so on.

One difference is that golems are unlikely to automate computation and record storage as efficiently as computers did; a subsentient golem in a magical setting probably can't read and write. So we'll see absolutely enormous departments full of file clerks and number-crunchers.

You think this is automation, but automation works only in the context of a vast growing civilization. If this is supposed to be a "medieval" world setting, then most likely you have a very small population with an equally small economy. The introduction of golems suddenly doing things that are already done, is going to simply put everyone into the poorhouse except those at the very very top.

This is true. On the other hand, the masses are likely to revolt if this happens.

So you either end up with a magocracy in which the golem-servants have killed and replaced the general public at the behest of a small elite, or you end up with a system that closely approximates true communism, in which the golems are put to work on behalf of supplying the general public with their basic physical needs.

The best thing for golems are to do jobs NO ONE is doing. Giant construction projections, or lifting and moving things that would be physically impossible for normal people. Again, considering the time period, you could use the for huge civil engineering works as, that is something no one is really doing at the time.

So golems doing farm work? Bad...

Debateable. The massive increase in food production that results will free up people to do things you cannot easily teach a golem to do. Over a few generations you get a population boom and society starts to renormalize.

Golems will be more disruptive than automation was, in the extreme limiting case of a medieval society. But the end state is similar, unless you get the "magocracy by genocide of the working class" scenario.

[biostem]

As someoen else pointed out, this would basically redistribute people into 3 or 4 fields of work:

1. Golem creation, (possibly an extension of sculptors/masons or those skilled in working the various materials golems would consist of).

2. Golem training (if a golem's skill set can be expanded upon after its initial creation and/or if they could learn).

3. Golem maintenance, (if golems could break/wear down as they work).

4. Golem supervisors, (would be required for the lower-intelligence ones, especially if they are only capable of accepting instruction from certain "masters" and to make sure they don't act beyond their orders - wouldn't want any "literal genie" incidents here).

I also assume there would be various schools that taught golem making/animating, and possibly policing agencies to make sure people don't use corpses as flesh golems or to impersonate people. Some fringe group building golem armies in secret would be a big threat as well.

I also wonder if person A could build a statue, and person B could come along and animate it. Heck, depending upon how easy it is to animate a golem, new forms of terrorism would have to be combated - enter an art gallery, animate a bunch of statues, give them a command to kill everyone but you, and flee.

I also wonder, if given proper materials, if things like vehicle golems or "companion golems" would arise.


Oh, and if golem creation required special components, those that controlled them would gain power and influence.

[Guardsman Bass]

You think this is automation, but automation works only in the context of a vast growing civilization. If this is supposed to be a "medieval" world setting, then most likely you have a very small population with an equally small economy. The introduction of golems suddenly doing things that are already done, is going to simply put everyone into the poorhouse except those at the very very top.

I disagree. What it would more likely do is generate strong pressure for land reform, so that everyone becomes their own farmer/artisan/whatever self-employed businessperson. Cheap golems would be nothing but beneficial in that case, especially for farmers since they could apply enormous amounts of "labor" to relatively small plots (getting large productivity per acre in the process). Artisans could essentially run an entire factory line with nothing but a few "golem managers".

[Purple]

The problem with all the economic expansion schemes posted on this thread is that they produce supply but not demand. The reason why factories are good for economic growth is not only that they make goods cheaper to produce but also that they employ workers and pay them money that they can use to buy said products. An economy based on factories and farms crewed entirely by golems with but a few overseers would just pile goods up indefinitely because they'd massively outproduce any demand that they can create.

[Ahriman238]

The problem with all the economic expansion schemes posted on this thread is that they produce supply but not demand. The reason why factories are good for economic growth is not only that they make goods cheaper to produce but also that they employ workers and pay them money that they can use to buy said products. An economy based on factories and farms crewed entirely by golems with but a few overseers would just pile goods up indefinitely because they'd massively outproduce any demand that they can create.

So, Social Credit? I. E. divide the surplus evenly among everyone?

[Zeropoint]

I'm no economist, but wouldn't the goods piling up drive the price down until demand rose to meet the new supply?

[Ahriman238]

I'm no economist, but wouldn't the goods piling up drive the price down until demand rose to meet the new supply?

Sort of.

Prices will crash, if Golem labor becomes anything like universal, or even terribly common. Followed by profits, though that may be lessened as golem labor is basically free. But businesses and farms that saw only modest returns are going to lose out hard. Then there's mass unemployment as people are replaced by golem-labor and most unskilled labor becomes obsolete, so there are effectively no jobs for the majority of the population.

Agrarian overproduction was a major factor in the Great Depression. Not a primary factor, nor a cause, but it definitely contributed to things going as bad as they did, as long as they did. And with magic golems this is presumably hitting everyone overnight.

[Purple]

I'm no economist, but wouldn't the goods piling up drive the price down until demand rose to meet the new supply?

In theory. In practice you have a set minimum price limited by the cost of production. For golem labor that means maintenance and materials as well as paying off the initial golem investment. So as mass unemployment drives demand down to basically zero prices won't follow it low enough and you'll end up with factories producing mountains of goods no one can buy. The ones who managed to become rich before the crash hit home or were rich beforehand become fabulously rich enjoying a newer ending stream of nigh free goods. The rest become incredibly poor.

[Zeropoint]

Why would factories or farms produce goods that cost money to be produced but couldn't be sold? Also, couldn't you pay workers in goods? If no one has any money to buy food, there should be plenty of folks lining up to oil golems for food. This should drive monetary costs for food production to about zero, shouldn't it?

[Purple]

Why would factories or farms produce goods that cost money to be produced but couldn't be sold?

Because the change does not magically happen over night. The state I describe is what will eventually happen after many years. Just like with any industrial revolution what you will get is basically a time of social and economic experimentation that might take years. During this time people will build more and more golems displacing more and more workers whilst at the same time figuring out new and ingenious ways to use them. Now with our own industrial revolution things stabilized at a point where the machines still needed someone to operate them reducing the work force but not completely gutting it. In this case however you can just make one golem walk around the factory oiling other golems. And than from time to time have one of the worker-golems oil it. You can basically create an entire production economy completely separated from human labor.

So what will happen is that as more and more people are displaced demand will drop further and further down. Factory owners, not willing to pick up and go bankrupt will keep trying to undercut one another whilst still producing goods to sell to whom ever can still buy. And in the end, you get what I described.

[LaCroix]

Why would factories or farms produce goods that cost money to be produced but couldn't be sold? Also, couldn't you pay workers in goods? If no one has any money to buy food, there should be plenty of folks lining up to oil golems for food. This should drive monetary costs for food production to about zero, shouldn't it?

The problem is that you are in a small population which economic setup was was prior ~50 farmers(serfs) per landowner and ~10 people working per Craftsmen. Now, some golems do the work of the farmers for free, and same for the craftsmen - you face a sudden (weeks or months) 90+% unemployment rate, while production probably rises. There simply isn't enought need for golem oilers to employ all of them.

And food production is now far above the needed for the land owners - actually tenfold, since they now keep all instead of only 10%, but that doesn't mean that the land owners will be selling it cheap or give it away, they will simply feast harder and raise more riding horses, buy shiny things from the craftsmen. The food production also won't rise, much, in terms of volume - it's simply the fact that the new worker doesn't need to eat, and is stronger - but that doesn't mean the land will grow more. And since he is already overproducing for his own needs, now, the landowner might simply scale down his operation - since there isn't any market for the goods. People seem to forget that the increase of production causes falling prices, but falling prices cut the incentive to produce. And in case of farming, there is no cost in cutting production, you simply stop using a field.

Same for trades. Golems will replace all the workers not essential needed to be of flash and containing a brain - and the shop master will trade with the landowners for food, and create more elaborate, fancy stuff he will charge more fore to compensate the loss of volume of cheap goods(tools) for the masses of serfs. HE also doesn't need to train people for trades, anymore, as he doesn't need their help. Some of his former workers might make the jump into the trade, too, but since demand is now low, only the one who makes the best and fanciest things for the landowners is having a chance to survive this market breakdown. They are simply too late for the train when they are kicked off it while it just started leaving...

The landowners and tradesmen will live in a happy little circular economy, and the only way for a common person to find work is when they join the military needed to protect the rich, or when they escape to the woodss and try to live from the land as outlaws (since all the land belongs to the lord, they are stealing if they use if to grow crops without permission, per default)

[Purple]

The landowners and tradesmen will live in a happy little circular economy, and the only way for a common person to find work is when they join the military needed to protect the rich

Why not use a golem based army? Sure they aren't smart but they can fire off a crossbow or rip a man apart as good if not betther than any human. So I imagine that you'll end up with human guards being a sort of luxury item like butters. Something to show off with whilst the land is patrolled by death-golems.

[LaCroix]

The landowners and tradesmen will live in a happy little circular economy, and the only way for a common person to find work is when they join the military needed to protect the rich

Why not use a golem based army? Sure they aren't smart but they can fire off a crossbow or rip a man apart as good if not betther than any human. So I imagine that you'll end up with human guards being a sort of luxury item like butters. Something to show off with whilst the land is patrolled by death-golems.

I doubt that a (standard) golem would be intelligent enough to fight a human with a plan. And those intelligent enough would be too expensive to use for such work. And that doesn't even include traps and ambushes, which are hard enough to spot and/or deal with for humans.

It's far easier and economic to use the near-free agricultural overprocution to feed and equip a human army, witch might employ some specialized siege or fight golems, if the situation demands. (Like sieges, or marching out to meet an enemy army).

[Purple]

I doubt that a (standard) golem would be intelligent enough to fight a human with a plan. And those intelligent enough would be too expensive to use for such work. And that doesn't even include traps and ambushes, which are hard enough to spot and/or deal with for humans.

So? You make the golem out of stone or metal and you are done. The golem can just let him self be ambushed and than rip the ambushers apart.

[LaCroix]

I doubt that a (standard) golem would be intelligent enough to fight a human with a plan. And those intelligent enough would be too expensive to use for such work. And that doesn't even include traps and ambushes, which are hard enough to spot and/or deal with for humans.

So? You make the golem out of stone or metal and you are done. The golem can just let him self be ambushed and than rip the ambushers apart.

A swinging tree stump, a rolling rock, or a pit trap could still deal with it. Once it is damaged enough or immobile, pollaxes and warhammers will do the rest. Stone is surprisingly easy to break with a sledgehammer if it's in the form of an arm Without arms, the golem is defenseless. Or fire - works for all of them. Maybe acid. MAybe there is a magical way to deactivate one of those magical golems - what can be built can usually be destroyed by the same means.

Humans are creative, that's why I'd always bet on humans, long term.

Just physically, a golem might not even be able to run after someone because is not able to enter buildings or dense forrests if its huge in size, or might sink into the ground because of weight. Even a relatively tiny stone statue weights an awful lot, as I now know (moving one for my mothers yard, yesterday - it was about the size of a 12yo and already weighted in excess of 200lbs), and their footprint is minuscule in comparison to their weight. A human-sized (I'm thinking about ~100kg) golem made of concrete (a stone statue of that size would be trivially easy to break to pieces with heavy blows) would weigh about 300kg, with a normal human footprint. For steel, it would weigh almost a ton - that's why heavy vehicles either need roads or tracked locomotion. And if you make them hollow to save weight, they are easier to break. And we don't know if such a golem would be stronger than a human - the OP doesn't say anything about super strenght, so I guess it scales with size and is on par with humans.

Also, there won't be that many steel golems running around for material constraints alone - it's an awful lot of metal for just one fighter, and it's not easy to make a solid cast steel statue with medival tech - you would need almost 3 tons of steel and whole woods worth of charcoal to weld such a thing with their tech. And we don'T know how golems are made - usually, magic and iron do not mix well in fantasy settings.

Apart from the issue that having golem death squads running around could be a bigger problem than bandits. A golem stumbling across some people might not be intelligent enough to notice that he shouldn't kill a particular person. Merchants, pilgrims, an allied army passing by, or your king coming to visit, not knowing that you use death squads.