You lead Industrial Cats against Human Theocrats (RAR!)

[LaCroix]

Wait, we have trains? Than this is pretty much settled. All we need to do is set up some armored trains loaded with wall guns, artillery and everything else we can manufacture that can fit. An armored train can be made virtually impervious to anything they can throw at us. And engineering units can, even with rudimentary hand tools lay kilometers of track per day. Anywhere with a railway junction is pretty much an instant fortress in this scenario.

Armored trains in CAT size - not what you're thinking about. Humans could probably even topple them with enough dedication.

That is assuming humans can catch up to a train that is shooting at them. I think it will be safe to say that our trains can run faster than a human. And there is a reason why I spoke of narrow track railways. You only really need the kind of small trains used to resupply the trenches in WW1 pulling flatbed carts with volley guns protected by rudimentary flat slab style gun shields. Even a cat sized locomotive (or several) should be capable of pulling one of those.

I'm more thinking about a cat sized train catching up with a couple of trees or boulders across the tracks. A humand sized train can plough through a lot before derailing, but that ability scales down pretty badly (it's a function of weight, thus an x³ function)

[Purple]

I'm more thinking about a cat sized train catching up with a couple of trees or boulders across the tracks. A humand sized train can plough through a lot before derailing, but that ability scales down pretty badly (it's a function of weight, thus an x³ function)

That would require you being stupid enough to lay tracks that move toward your enemy or hell just driving toward him as opposed to moving around or perpendicular to him (ideally exposing your side all the time) at a great distance (hundreds of meters away). Something which is stupid in its own right because it derives you of the ability to use most of your firepower. Seriously, if your enemy is crossing the track somewhere just go the other way and find a good loop around him. Sure they can block some sections of your track. But unless your position is being overrun they should not be able to box you in.

[Borgholio]

Look at what they have:

1. Machine tools
2. Combustion engines
3. Heavy industry

Screw trains. Build tanks.

[LaCroix]

I'm more thinking about a cat sized train catching up with a couple of trees or boulders across the tracks. A humand sized train can plough through a lot before derailing, but that ability scales down pretty badly (it's a function of weight, thus an x³ function)

That would require you being stupid enough to lay tracks that move toward your enemy or hell just driving toward him as opposed to moving around or perpendicular to him (ideally exposing your side all the time) at a great distance (hundreds of meters away). Something which is stupid in its own right because it derives you of the ability to use most of your firepower. Seriously, if your enemy is crossing the track somewhere just go the other way and find a good loop around him. Sure they can block some sections of your track. But unless your position is being overrun they should not be able to box you in.

They got horses. If they are close enought that machineguns on an armored train are a danger to them, then they are close enough to flank that train and/or start sabotaging the tracks once it is gone. Or simply keep far enough away from the train itself. Now building tanks, that would help, but a train is too inflexible.

[Purple]

Look at what they have:

1. Machine tools
2. Combustion engines
3. Heavy industry

Screw trains. Build tanks.

I suggested that already early on. Although it would probably end up being something more akin to tankettes. As in a few volley guns mounted on a hull no larger than necessary and with no rotating turret. Especially if we can make gatling guns and the like.

They got horses. If they are close enought that machineguns on an armored train are a danger to them, then they are close enough to flank that train and/or start sabotaging the tracks once it is gone. Or simply keep far enough away from the train itself. Now building tanks, that would help, but a train is too inflexible.

I disagree. With something resembling a volley gun using 19th century rifles as a base you could reasonably get 500+m of range. And given that they already have trains this implies a preexisting large railroad network that we can exploit for mobility.


Our best bet would likely be a combination of maneuver units in armored tanketes and armored cars attached to trains for strategic transport. That way you both preserve fuel and diminish wear on your vehicles and have a fortified base of operations for your units basically creating a sort of rapid response heavy cavalry. Can you just imagine them trying to charge into a village when a swarm of these things rides out to meet them?


Also, do you think we could rig up some sort of flame thrower? The morale effect on troops that have newer seen such a thing would be excellent.

[Raw Shark]

How flexible are these cats between bipedal mobility and normal housecat mobility? Can they switch it casually (ie: run toward a wall like a human and then effortlessly shift to running up that wall) like a cat, and then effortlessly shift again to climbing like a monkey, in the manner of Crawler in Worm..? Can't switch it at all? Switch it with a laborious process?

[Borgholio]

Well they have hands...so unless the rest of their body is altered to be bipedal to the same degree as ours, they should actually be able to climb walls pretty easily.

[LaCroix]

Even if they have shifted to bipedal, the strength vs mass ratio on a cat is so much better suited for climbing that it wouldn't make a difference. Especially if they have hands. Also, it wouldn't be a large shift, as cats are able to stand and even walk bipedal for short distances already, if they want to...

(Btw - Do they retain retractable claws?)

[Raw Shark]

(Btw - Do they retain retractable claws?)

The Rule of Cool votes yea.

[Simon_Jester]

I'm more thinking about a cat sized train catching up with a couple of trees or boulders across the tracks. A humand sized train can plough through a lot before derailing, but that ability scales down pretty badly (it's a function of weight, thus an x³ function)

On the other hand, a physically smaller train will also have much shorter stopping distance at a given speed- less momentum to take out through the brakes.

Also, there's no fundamental reason the cats can't build trains to something like human scale; they'd just need heavy machine tools to work with the equipment in the yard.

[LaCroix]

On the other hand, a physically smaller train will also have much shorter stopping distance at a given speed- less momentum to take out through the brakes.
Also, there's no fundamental reason the cats can't build trains to something like human scale; they'd just need heavy machine tools to work with the equipment in the yard.

True, the will stop quicker, since they'll barely have any speed built up - see below.

Well, the same fundamental rule why Humans didn't build trains that had 5m high ceilings - you build something practical. In general, human waggon's external dimensions are about 2.5m width x 3 m height - use the same values for the Mollys, and you get a waggon about 1 m wide and 1.5m tall.

The locomotive would be about the same size, so we are talking about something the size of a bigger lawntractor. And they only have steam engines, no IC engines - I doubt it can generate enough power to pull something significantly armored.

The same about tanks or armored cars - this is an analogue to trying have Germany build a Maus tank in 1916.

[Me2005]

Wait, why did these cats even build such guns in the first place? A 2-3 mm gun probably won't hurt a cat at range, let alone a person. I mean, a BB gun can only sometimes take out a small mammal, and usually using pellets rather than BBs or at extremely close range. I'd expect them to be using human-sized air rifles, essentially, (perhaps powered by BP instead of air since they don't have the strength to prime such an air rifle) and taking advantage of their stealthy natures to all be night-hunting mounted snipers and assassins.

Regardless, against humans their ranged weapons - and thus the majority of their army - are basically useless. Depending on how fortified their town is, the artillery might have some use in breaking holes, but the humans will know something's up when they hear gunshots followed by tiny explosions. On the face of it, a sure-fire (but likely high casualty) plan is a bum-rush against the city - the humans have 40,000 warriors/nobles + 200,000 'other' men, women, and children against 350,000 cat-warriors + some extra equipment. Pressing even more cats into service could easily yield millions of extra cats if needed, and all they need is a small, possibly poisoned, knife, lance, or sword to be effective.

I doubt that in a year, the humans could have set up more than a wooden palisade around their city, as they are building from scratch, so getting in just involves 'running quickly at the walls and climbing over them'.

Not at all sure how a grown fighting man-in-armor would fare against a mob of cats & 40 kg antelopes - It seems like he'd get overwhelmed and swamped pretty easily. Small cats aren't actually that fast, but they are super agile - I can probably run just as fast in a straight line, but they can go that fast in basically any direction, including vertical, and at any time they choose. So while he's swinging his sword, most of the cats will likely evade and/or jump on his face & back. Once there, he can only try to pull them off and throw them, which would be totally ineffective, or wring their necks, which would be more effective but slow.

If they set the town on fire at night as an opening move and then attacked en mass, the humans should get slaughtered. It might lead to more loss of life on the cat-side, but it'd be a quick & complete solution without giving the humans any reaction time.

[madd0ct0r]

On the other hand, a physically smaller train will also have much shorter stopping distance at a given speed- less momentum to take out through the brakes.
Also, there's no fundamental reason the cats can't build trains to something like human scale; they'd just need heavy machine tools to work with the equipment in the yard.

True, the will stop quicker, since they'll barely have any speed built up - see below.

Well, the same fundamental rule why Humans didn't build trains that had 5m high ceilings - you build something practical. In general, human waggon's external dimensions are about 2.5m width x 3 m height - use the same values for the Mollys, and you get a waggon about 1 m wide and 1.5m tall.

The locomotive would be about the same size, so we are talking about something the size of a bigger lawntractor. And they only have steam engines, no IC engines - I doubt it can generate enough power to pull something significantly armored.

The same about tanks or armored cars - this is an analogue to trying have Germany build a Maus tank in 1916.

narrow guage was used in mines with little chuffers pulling long lines of spoil carts. If you can't make the engine taller or wider, you can always make it longer.

[Jub]

On the speed of cats, it seems that an average cat can hit 30km/h which eclipses even Usain Bolt if you look at average speed versus peak speed. So the average cat, while not as good a distance runner, has a hell of an advantage in that he can disengage almost at will and his foe will be unable to catch him in the near term.

[Me2005]

On the speed of cats, it seems that an average cat can hit 30km/h which eclipses even Usain Bolt if you look at average speed versus peak speed. So the average cat, while not as good a distance runner, has a hell of an advantage in that he can disengage almost at will and his foe will be unable to catch him in the near term.

Well, I stand corrected there then. Horses still outrun them, but a man on foot could not - especially armored.

[Borgholio]

It'd be hard for a horse to catch a cat even. Sure a horse can out-run a cat in a straight line but cats can turn on a dime. They can run circles around a horse.

[Jub]

Plus, horses likely wouldn't enjoy having things underfoot jabbing and slashing at them with bits of metal and/or claws. I wonder if that makes cavalry a liability rather than an asset against these foes?

[Purple]

On the other hand just how much damage can a cat do to an armored or semi armored infantryman armed with mele weapons and trained in their use? Is it going to claw at his breastplate?

[Zeropoint]

Do I get to keep my real-world knowledge? I can think of a number of technologies that the Nekonians could really use, which should be within reach for anyone capable of building working revolvers and useful steam locomotives.

Either way, it's going to take years to ramp up production of new weapons. "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you want." Our first priority has to be containment; keeping the Dominion forces from expanding their foothold. Caltrops and tripwires hidden in grass should reduce the impact of cavalry.

Against formations of soldiers, we'll need to either avoid them, or find a way to break them up so we can swarm individual soldiers. Our 200mm artillery should be capable of inflicting serious casualties on a unit of human soldiers in anything less than high-end steel plate, but those big guns are going to face problems with mobility, targeting, and rate of fire.

It's going to be important to either get ahead of where their expeditions are going, or force them into our prepared killing grounds.

On the other hand just how much damage can a cat do to an armored or semi armored infantryman armed with mele weapons and trained in their use? Is it going to claw at his breastplate?

I was thinking more along the lines of the cats pulling him down and shoving their catanas and bayonets through the gaps in his armor. Or you know, just climb up his back and then cut his throat.

[Purple]

I was thinking more along the lines of the cats pulling him down and shoving their catanas and bayonets through the gaps in his armor. Or you know, just climb up his back and then cut his throat.

I know. But I just can not realistically see this working against anything resembling a pike and shot era organized armed expedition. It might work against some sort of medieval peasant levy or something. Or at taking down an individual armed knight. But attacking a formation of organized professional troops (and it's not like these would not be professionals since it's an invasion) you are just going to be met with a wall of pikes and halberds.

[Jub]

I was thinking more along the lines of the cats pulling him down and shoving their catanas and bayonets through the gaps in his armor. Or you know, just climb up his back and then cut his throat.

I know. But I just can not realistically see this working against anything resembling a pike and shot era organized armed expedition. It might work against some sort of medieval peasant levy or something. Or at taking down an individual armed knight. But attacking a formation of organized professional troops (and it's not like these would not be professionals since it's an invasion) you are just going to be met with a wall of pikes and halberds.

Do you know what the Pike formations biggest weakness was? It was when people got close with it and started to force their way into the pike square itself. These cats, being almost as fast as horses yet many times smaller in size, can get up close and personal with pikemen pretty easily. Think of how hard it is to actually hit a running cat with a broom, now think of how hard it is if that cat knows what you're trying to do, your broom is 8 feet long and you're packed shoulder to shoulder with other people. It's not going to work that well for you unless you get lucky.

[Purple]

Do you know what the Pike formations biggest weakness was? It was when people got close with it and started to force their way into the pike square itself. These cats, being almost as fast as horses yet many times smaller in size, can get up close and personal with pikemen pretty easily. Think of how hard it is to actually hit a running cat with a broom, now think of how hard it is if that cat knows what you're trying to do, your broom is 8 feet long and you're packed shoulder to shoulder with other people. It's not going to work that well for you unless you get lucky.

Two things. Firstly, people are actually strong and large enough to grab your pike and pull it away or do any number of other things to help get in close. Cat's can't do that. Secondly you don't swing at stuff with a pike. You just make a wall of spear points and hold it in place for the enemy to impale him self on. Fast or not cats are going to have just as much issue pushing through this as humans did.

[Jub]

Do you know what the Pike formations biggest weakness was? It was when people got close with it and started to force their way into the pike square itself. These cats, being almost as fast as horses yet many times smaller in size, can get up close and personal with pikemen pretty easily. Think of how hard it is to actually hit a running cat with a broom, now think of how hard it is if that cat knows what you're trying to do, your broom is 8 feet long and you're packed shoulder to shoulder with other people. It's not going to work that well for you unless you get lucky.

Two things. Firstly, people are actually strong and large enough to grab your pike and pull it away or do any number of other things to help get in close. Cat's can't do that. Secondly you don't swing at stuff with a pike. You just make a wall of spear points and hold it in place for the enemy to impale him self on. Fast or not cats are going to have just as much issue pushing through this as humans did.

Pike hedges just aren't that thick, plus you need to aim them low to have them at cat height and cats can jump many many times their own height, this isn't to mention that fact that cats are nimble enough to literally run up a pikes haft and attack the hands/face of the person holding it. Also, how fast can a pike block turn to face a formation of cats that decide to sprint around the sides of it?

[Purple]

Pike hedges just aren't that thick, plus you need to aim them low to have them at cat height and cats can jump many many times their own height, this isn't to mention that fact that cats are nimble enough to literally run up a pikes haft and attack the hands/face of the person holding it./quote]
No, a cat can not run up a pike shaft. The thing is not even as thick as a cats foot. They aren't snails.

Also, how fast can a pike block turn to face a formation of cats that decide to sprint around the sides of it?

Well given that this is where the support troops with halberds and the like are going to be, or alternatively just a pike square with pikes pointing anywhere I'd say they are safe.

[LaCroix]

Half of the first line of cats will die horribly to have all others following them stab the army to pieces. Foregone conclusion.

Pike formations work pretty well if the enemy is human sized, because humans are a pretty big and clumsy target. If a human runs at the pike formaion, he can't find a spot to slip through. Against something cat sized, it's useless. An attacking cat is a target of about 20x20 cm - this is the equivalent to having to stab an dodging attacker in the face with a pike. Same for the people shooting at them. For the halberdeers - by the time they cut one cat down, there are 3 already upon them. And since they don't wear full plate, but only a cuirass, at most, if their gear is historically correct, they will be be stabbed to death in seconds.

I can literally see how the cats will run along the pike shafts, jump, and land in the middle of the formation, stabbing the peopley busy reloading their muskets in the face, and then working their way out, while the rest is working their way in.

Watch this video, and see how the cat almost teleported into that woman's face.

Now imagine it had a 20cm knife, and a couple thousand friends.