Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Discworl

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Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Discworl

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

So, The Discworld.
While Pratchett has gone through great lengths to make it as believable as possible, the explanation for the 'sun' such as it is, has always been a bit, tenuous.

The Sun of the discworld is a sphere barely the same size as Earths moon. It moves around the Disc in a strange journey that "Somehow" is able to replicate seasons as well as providing a Day night cycle.

Now as a man of "SCIENCE!!!" this explanation I find somewhat, lacking. Yes, Discworld IS a world based upon magic, but surely there must be some better mechanism for Day/Night and Seasons other than having a tiny tiny sun moving around a Disc in inexplicable paths...

So,

Let us consider what it would take to create such things on a Discworld.
For purposes of this exercise, let us have "A" star turtle and a randomly generated Discworld ((obviously not THE Discworld)) And, just in case such things are needed, let us say the land mass and shape is approximate to the Northren Hemisphere of Earth Squashed flat into a Disc.

Now instead of a "magic" tiny sun, we place it in a facsimile of our solar system, in an orbit the same as where Earth would be. The turtle will "Swim" round and round in this orbit to mimic the path Earth would be taking.
Obviously at this distance, it should get the same heat and light as Earth, so that is one problem solved.

But what of Day/Night or Seasons?

Could the Turtle "turn over" every 24hours perhaps? Facing away from the sun so that the Disc is facing off into space to mimic Night?
Would you still get Seasons on a Flat Disc by following the Orbit of Earth? Or would you need something else?

Curious to see what others may think.
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Re: Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Disc

Post by B5B7 »

You would bind Great A'Tuin from freely travelling. Heretic. :shock: :x :P :twisted:
But seriously, your clever proposal is not in the spirit of the Discworld cosmology.
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Re: Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Disc

Post by LadyTevar »

I will point out that Discworld is so magical that Light Slows Down. It can even be used to sharpen steel.
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Re: Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Disc

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

I know I know!
The Discworld runs on Magic. Pratchett himself has stated that it's silly to try and apply Science to Discworld because it doesn't need Science as we need it... Still, when I look at the little Sun orbiting the disc...I think there has just got to be a better way :P

Maybe I'm going about this wrong... Maybe I should stick to thinking about how such a Sun would create Seasons in the first place rather than try and come up with a replacement for it! :P
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Re: Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Disc

Post by madd0ct0r »

isn't it canon that the sun's orbit is so odd occasionally an elephant has to cock a leg to let it pass?

ok. off memory

1) the sun and moon orbit independently, since eclipses are possible.
2) They get close enough the dark side of the moon is such because it's been burnt
3) the orbits are not simple, which might be expected for stuff going around a flat plate with directional gravity.
4) a year is 800 days
5) there are 8 seasons a year

ok.

Idea 1) gravity points down because that's where most of the mass is, a bit in the disc, a bit in the elephants and most in great a'tuin.

Idea 2) therefore between the disc and the turtle shell gravity is a lot weaker and has funny fluctuations due to elephant.

idea 3) the disc itself rotates as elephants shift their shoulders. one rotation = 1 year (800 days?)

idea 4) the sun passes around the disc off centre, giving you seasons. This doesn't solve the 8 seasons a year problem.

therefore 5) the sun passes over the disc, dips under, gets pulled toward the center point, pops up on the opposite side of the disc. changes direction again and crosses disc off center but on opposite side. This means there's two places on the disc getting alternating summer days.

to visualise this, look at a clock. Sun rises at 2, sets at 4, rises again 10, sets at 8, rises again at 2.

I think this works. sort of.
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Re: Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Disc

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

You know, the whole "8 seasons in a year" business...

I always felt it works MUCH better to just say the Disc works off of a "2 Year 400day" Cycle.
Normally the "sun" would be in the same spot each "year".
Well, say it's a 800 day "Cycle" with 2 years. And the sun is in the spy 'every other year'

Oh, another thing is the "Rotation" of the disc... Most things work like clockwork cause of physics (even if it's magic based physics)
But rotating via the Elephants shoulders? I always felt it would be highly inaccurate :P
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Re: Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Disc

Post by Zixinus »

Knowing the Discworld or a world like it, I would bet that there is a god or similar force of nature that is making sure with divine calipers that the Sun and Moon stay their current course. It might be that the Sun going around crazily would I imagine that the god is a fanatic of precision (what other kind of god would bother?) and thus is quite busy with this task.
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Re: Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Disc

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Actually...
On the Discworld, the "Gods" really care mostly just about worshipers. None of the gods on the Disc "created" the world. and the most they do to govern it is (and this is only hinted it) changing weather or such. Of course even that is in doubt as there is plenty of evidence that gods just "take credit" when something good, or bad happens...

Things like running the moon, sun and stars is outside their control...
In our "Practice" Discworld, it would be totally without gods since our experiment involves a Disc without sapient population (for now)
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Re: Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Disc

Post by Zixinus »

I was actually thinking of the Hogfather. Without him and belief in him the sun literary wouldn't rise.

Gods that are worshiped in the Discworld are not its creators. But there are separate Creators (he does his own snowflakes and all). Evolution had its own god, complete with workshop.
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Re: Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Disc

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

But remember Deaths words:
"The Sun would not come... Instead a mere ball of burning gas would rise."
The "sun" would still come up, but the way people thought of it, as well as the belief in the Hog father would be gone forever...

Although I do get what you are saying about certain gods specializing in certain things...

Personally I feel a lot of the things are "built" in by "the" creator god back when the disc itself was created...
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Re: Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Disc

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Ok... So not to double post, but I had thought of another mechanic I thought should be addressed... A Discworld's Water Cycle!

Basically in "The" Discworld, The Ocean pours endlessly over the edge of the rim. Dumping no doubt trillions of letters of water constantly over the edge. Now Pratchett has always stated that, as far as the water returning in such quantities that the ocean isn't drained, that "Arrangements are made"

Now, one would imagine that perhaps a better set up would be to have a circular ring of land and mountains keeping the ocean "In" for the most part. And there would perhaps be only a few openings along the rim where water would pour off into the abyss to evaporate and fall back as rain.

Of course THAT made me think of another "mechanics" issue... Which is that if the water is falling of into "the depths of Space" one would imagine it would freeze and fall as snow on the bottom of the Star Turtle instead of evaporating and falling as rain on the Disc.

SO in the interest of thinking of what "Arrangements are made" entails...

Lets say at night, as the 'sun' passes under the disc, the heat evaporates the water so it can raise up into the atmosphere. Now then all that heat could also be soaked up by the immense shell of a Star Turtle. Then when the sun is above the Disc, the stored heat could be released to evaporate the water, as well as warming the elephants as well
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Re: Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Disc

Post by madd0ct0r »

have you read Strata?
Science fiction, and the first time the discworld appears. The arrangements made there are a molecular sieve with the water pumped back up through the ocean floor. as noted by the narrator 'the disc drinks energy'
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Re: Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Disc

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Ok going to have to look up "Strata". For as big a Pratchett fan as I am, I didn't even know he wrote it!
Interesting plot summary, sounds a lot like the basis for the "Magrathians" in HHGTTG in regards to constructing massive habitats for Humans. It is almost like a "Science" version of the Discworld, so will defiantly need to look into it.
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Re: Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Disc

Post by Batman »

It 'is' essentially a SciFi version of Discworld (and does, to my not inconsiderable surprise, actually precede it). It's not a particularly good read if you ask me but I only ever read it in german so part of that may the translator's fault and it 'does' offer a different perspective on the 'how does the Discworld function' idea.
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Re: Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Disc

Post by Pelranius »

Crossroads Inc. wrote:Ok... So not to double post, but I had thought of another mechanic I thought should be addressed... A Discworld's Water Cycle!

Basically in "The" Discworld, The Ocean pours endlessly over the edge of the rim. Dumping no doubt trillions of letters of water constantly over the edge. Now Pratchett has always stated that, as far as the water returning in such quantities that the ocean isn't drained, that "Arrangements are made"
The Auditors did it?

If they had to file paperwork for each H2O molecule that went over the edge, I can see why they're always so grumpy.
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Re: Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Disc

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

AHOY YE ALL!!!

I Hope this is not a Necro, mostly as I have another Discworld related "Thought Experiment" and I figure making a whole new thread for a question that may get perhaps a dozen or so replies is a bit of a waste...

So...

My new question is this... As stated earlier, I am working on making my own "discworld" of sorts, hence the reason for working out various mechanics to my own personal satisfactory nature.
However.. This new discworld, well what should it be carried UPON?

I mean,. Elephants on the back of a Star Turtle is fine, but it's obviously been done before... I could say its another Star turtle, they do seem to be a Species. Shoot, Great A'tuin even over saw babies hatching from eggs. But again, it's been done...

Soooooooo...

What sort of animal, or animals would also be suitable for holding a 10,000 mile disc through space?
Some of my current ideas are a Giant "world snake" wrapped around the disc, similar to Norse mythology.. But JUST a snake wouldn't be enough.. After all it has ti be resting ON something right?
other Ideas are a Snake on the back of:
A jelly fish,
A Swimming crab,
A 'Star Whale' (this one appeals to me, but a Whales back is a hard place to rest a Disc)
Or even an extent species... Some of the ancient extinct Arthropods seem very interesting...

Any other ideas?
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Re: Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Disc

Post by Purple »

Crabs. Have a set of 4 crabs sitting on the turtle holding the world up with their claws. Earthquakes happen when one crab decides to shuffle round or scratch it self. Volcanoes happen when a crabs sharp pincer penetrates the earth and lava spews out.
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Re: Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Disc

Post by LaCroix »

That would also explain why the world is turning, crabs always walk sideways... :D

Earthquakes are when one crab briefly tries to reverse direction, and the other three keep going. :D
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Re: Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Disc

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Well...

The crab was one of the animals I was considering to hold up the Snake... Which I'm currently thinking of using to hold up the disc...

See, you need TWO animals , one land, one sea.
The land animal(or animals) holds up the world. This is logical because land animals stand on things, they are stable and good at not moving...
But.. You need SOMETHING for them to stand on...

An elephant holding a world, and just "walking" through space is absurd! You don't walk in space you swim in it! (Or possibly fly)

So your land animal holds up the world and the Sea animal holds up the Land animal. You COULD use a flying animal... However they may move too fast to be a good stable base for your land animals to sit on.

Currently I am thinking of using a "world snake" to hold the disc.. I think it is a better fit than elephants as it offers more uniformity in the worlds design. You just have one snake managing things, instead of four separate animals... What if one of them tripped? There would be a hell of a lot of chaos before the other three balanced things out...

Sooooooo what would be a good flat base for a snake curled around a world?
Although ... I have to admit, the idea of crabs scuttling sideways to turn the disc made me chuckle. :D
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Re: Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Disc

Post by Irbis »

Crossroads Inc. wrote:Sooooooo what would be a good flat base for a snake curled around a world?
Manta ray? :o

As for the sun, you're overthinking it. Imagine sun orbits around turtle's 'waist'. Now add a slight spin - equal to say one minute on mechanical clock. This will cause the sun's to rotate around the disc. Now, for seasons, imagine you have right and left hand winter - places on the disc farthest away from sun's orbit, summer would be in closest place.

As seasons change, they would swap, then once the sun is back in the starting point, return to original position. That's why you have 8 seasons - left/right hand winter, rising/setting summer, though they would be normally just called winter and summer. In that arrangement, centre of disc would be coldest, and we in fact know there is snowy mountain range there.

Would neatly fit the 'turtle has to raise leg sometimes' bit.

As for rain, imagine it's the turtle that hold atmosphere, not disc. Disc would be just good in retaining water, being only porous/uneven place around. Hmm, maybe sun orbits around combined turtle-disc system, making it come closer to turtle, who, being living being would be warmer than disc, thus this side of system would evaporate water quicker moving it to colder disc?
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Re: Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Disc

Post by Zaune »

You're all over-thinking it. Narrative Causality, aka "because the plot says so", is an actual law of physics on the Disc. What more need be said?
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Re: Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Disc

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Because I'm not making THE Discworld... Just "a" discworld.
I'm trying to do things a but different..,

Anyways.. I'm really digging the idea of using a Manta Ray instead of a Turtle
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Re: Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Disc

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Ok, so I wanted to get peoples feed back on the following...
Image

So what that is supposed to be, is a 'theoretical' "Flat" disc world, based upon the assumption of heat and climate in relation to the sun. The above is a No continents, no mountain ranges world (so no break up of weather patterns)

My thought was to use this is a test bed.. Draw continents and such and then work out how said oceans and continents would effect the base Biome pattern I have. My question is, does everyone thing the above pic works as a valid 'default' stage for biomes?
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Re: Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Disc

Post by madd0ct0r »

Are you including the effect of elevation? Does this disc have a mountain in the middle?
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Re: Rethinking the mechanics of DayNight and seasons on Disc

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

AH I should have mentioned, yea, I imagined the "default" pattern as having a gradual rise in elevation from Rim to Hub, basically from plains on up through high mountains in the middle. But again, that is just for the 'default' I am right now trying to just have a somewhat accurate analog to Earths Biome layout to act as a starting point.
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