Movie Avengers vs Movie Brotherhood of Mutants

[White Haven]

The only way I can see the OP scenario playing out even vaguely in the Brotherhood's favor requires both some serious pre-planning and a lot of finesse.

Magneto fucks with Stark's aim so he pastes Hulk with a few repulsor blasts, gets them to square off, while Mystique (again, lots of prep work) imitates Jane Foster to fuck with Thor. With the three real heavy-hitters temporarily out of action in a manner that doesn't require Magneto's constant maintenance, he should be able to clean up Cap, Black Widow, and Hawkeye quite handily. I emphasize, however, that this is not something I consider a likely win for the Brotherhood, simply the only play I could think of that would give them even a prayer.

Thor and Hulk are the real wildcards here, because they either don't fuck with metal in the first place (Hulk) or they have a plausible chance to be able to say 'bitch, Mjolnir' when Magneto tries something (Thor). Hawkeye, with advanced warning and prep time, could be a possible as well simply by ditching all the nice steel-threaded arrowheads and such, go in for a very X3 'humans and their guns' moment with Magneto left wondering why there's an arrow sticking out of his throat.

But yeah, not impossible for Magneto and company to pull something off, but it'd very much be a long shot and one that requires substantial preparation to boot. The balance of probability says they get fucked, hard.

[Kojiro]

If they know she's there and an innocent victim, yes. The X-Men did. Do the Avengers?

Even if they do I would say the opinion wouldn't be universal. Hulk probably doesn't care so long as she doesn't threaten him. Stark would probably try hard but not at the cost of his own well being. Thor and Cap would rather take a bullet (or whatever is being thrown at them) than harm an innocent. Widow and Hawkeye... well while they'd probably avoid killing her if possible should the machine power up I could easily see Natasha putting a bullet in Rogue and arguing with Cap about it later. It may even be her plan to let Magneto power it up to weaken him- she's acceptable collateral to ensure Magneto goes in the ground.

[Tribble]

I don't remember Movie Magneto being able to manipulate metal beyond his eyesight, so they would be able to get within visual distance before starting to attack, which really doesn't give him much time based on their speed and... wait someone's already said that

I agree with White Haven here. IMO the combination of Thor and Hulk is simply too much for Magneto to handle, even at full power. But if Mystique is able to keep one of them distracted long enough so that he can engage the other one in a one-on-one fight (like transforming into Betty and trying to calm the Hulk down), he might have a chance.

Hawkeye using non-metallic arrows might work but then again Magneto was quick enough to put a piece of metal in between him and the plastic bullets. He'd have to catch Magneto completely off-guard here.

One thing that isn't fair about this fight is the numbers - its 4 on 6 against the Brotherhood, while in X-Men the odds were equal. Even if the Brotherhood took down an Avenger on a 1:1 basis, the Avengers would still win by having more members to start with. IMO to be fair I'd keep the Avenger team down to 4 members (maybe two of them couldn't join because they had to deal with some other crisis).

[Tribble]

Unfortunately, even then Magneto's demonstrated tactics would mean the Avengers would most likely win. During X-Men if he and Sabretooth had simply joined in the fight from the start he would have beaten them all quickly. If Magneto did the same thing and kept Sabretooth with himself, Toad and Mystique would have to take on the whole team by themselves. They'll get curbstomped whether its 4 of them or 6. Then it'll be Sabretooth and Magneto vs the lot. I don't fancy their chances very much, unless Magneto gets really lucky.

And yes, it would be perfectly in character for Magneto to do this because he did the exact same thing (albeit on a larger scale) in X-3.

[une]

The Brotherhood is outclassed.

I think the movie Hellfire club is a much better match up for the Avengers.

[Kojiro]

They are a much better match but they're still fighting 6v4. While the Avengers two weakest members are relatively easy pickings for the club their top 2 are way up there on the power curve.

Any match up with mutants is going to run the Hulk/Thor problem. If either one isn't tied up or dealt with they will run roughshod over most anyone. The Hellfire club probably has the best chance with Frost mentally debilitating one (though Magneto was able to throw a knife under those circumstances- good luck catching Mjolnir) and Shaw will just be a test of how much he can absorb. He could have a truly epic fight with the Hulk.

[Patroklos]

Xavier's telepathy is just cheating. It's not developed nearly as far as it is in X2 when he's able to freeze everybody in a crowded shopping mall, but it's pretty powerful. He could just tell The Other Guy to shut down, and he likely would, unless he's epically pissed like he was in WWH.

Doesn't Xavier doe the "freeze" trick in First Class too?

Magneto's powers seem to be mostly effective within visual range; I don't think there's any demonstration of him doing anything much farther than that in the films. In the comics, well, things get ridiculous there, but this isn't the comics. If the Avengers can sneak up on Ellis Island (plausible), they can get close enough that he won't necessarily have a whole lot of time to attack them. He did allow the X-Men to get pretty close, after all...

He has a range of at least a dozen miles based on the missile sceen of First Class. Not only that, but he has enough power to not only grab a hundred odd shells and missiles at the same time, but beyond just compensating for the kinetic energy of the shells he was able to compensate for the energy of the rocket engines on the missiles.

Given this Iron Man is a crushed coke can upon visual aquisition at the very least. Hulk is the only real threat against Magneto, he needs to somehow keep him off the ground because as powerful as Hulk is leverage is a thing.

[Ted C]

In the comics, has Iron Man ever faced Magneto?

Yes, with varying results. In an old West Coast Avengers, he had armor that he had somehow made non-magnetic, so Magneto couldn't affect it.

Not that it applies here, since Magneto's powers and Iron Man's powers don't work exactly as they do in the comics.

[Patroklos]

On the Hulk/Banner thing, someone mentioned killing Banner might not mean the Hulk will allow him to die. The suicide attempt was brought up with Hulk spitting out the bullet Banner shot into his head.

Thinking about this I don't think Banner every actually shot himself, Banner knew what he was duing thus his Hulk personality had time to come out. In the case of Mystique, can she get close enough undetected to kill Banner while he is not angry, without him having any knowledge of what is happening so he has no chance to become angry?

I am sure this has been addressed in the comics, I am not an Avengers fan and haven't read them.

[une]

They are a much better match but they're still fighting 6v4. While the Avengers two weakest members are relatively easy pickings for the club their top 2 are way up there on the power curve.

Any match up with mutants is going to run the Hulk/Thor problem. If either one isn't tied up or dealt with they will run roughshod over most anyone. The Hellfire club probably has the best chance with Frost mentally debilitating one (though Magneto was able to throw a knife under those circumstances- good luck catching Mjolnir) and Shaw will just be a test of how much he can absorb. He could have a truly epic fight with the Hulk.

Everything you wrote is true. I can't disagree with any of it.

I guess the only way you could really give the Avengers a proper challenge would be with a combined Hellfire Club/Brotherhood team. That way you get rid of the Avenger's numbers advantage and give the mutants two powerhouses of their own to match up to Hulk/Thor.

How about this Hellfire Brotherhood team:
Magneto
Shaw
Emma
Mystique
Sabertooth
Azezel (The teleporter guy)

Think they could take down the Avengers?

[Vendetta]

On the Hulk/Banner thing, someone mentioned killing Banner might not mean the Hulk will allow him to die. The suicide attempt was brought up with Hulk spitting out the bullet Banner shot into his head.

It's inconsistent.

In at least some cases the death of Bruce Banner just means that Bruce Banner is dead and there's only Hulk left.

[Kojiro]

I guess the only way you could really give the Avengers a proper challenge would be with a combined Hellfire Club/Brotherhood team. That way you get rid of the Avenger's numbers advantage and give the mutants two powerhouses of their own to match up to Hulk/Thor.

How about this Hellfire Brotherhood team:
Magneto
Shaw
Emma
Mystique
Sabertooth
Azezel (The teleporter guy)

Think they could take down the Avengers?

That's a very alpha strike scenario and would depend on the exact way they met. You could write it either way and it'd be plausible. And it depends if you're looking for the kind of fight that would happen in a movie or if you're just number crunching so to speak.

I mean in FC, we have Azazel pretty much getting the drop on every combatant that doesn't know what he does, in the same way Nightcrawler does at the start of X3. Those poor SS agents were crippled under the assumption the threat had to come down the hall/corridor or through the door. But look at what happens to Azazel in FC once Beast gets his teleport timing down- Azazel starts to get owned. Granted Beast hits hard but I can't see his reaction time being significantly improved over Widow or Hawkeye. I could easily see him grabbing Widow only to get zapped by those electro gauntlets or have a few pumped into him point blank from her guns. Equally so he may just materialise behind her and stab... Widow is down.

You could have all sorts of scenes, with Mystique impersonating Cap while Stark tries to determine which one to shoot. In the end the real Cap say 'Shoot us both!' and Mystique is alas unable to replicate the properties of the shield even if she can do the shape. Conversely she appears as Betty long enough to distract the Hulk...

And there's no way to know who would win the Hulk/Shaw match up. They may just end up fighting for days long after the other combatants have become collateral or left. But this would be a good fight I think without a clear or decisive winner.

[Tribble]

Does Shaw have the same limitations that he had in the comics? If I remember correctly, while he is capable of absorbing a lot of energy, he can eventually be overloaded. Also, I seem to remember there being occasions where beings like Colossus have injured him as his body couldn't quite absorb all of the energy coming in. IMO there may be limits to what he can absorb and how quickly he can absorb, though those limits would be very high. Probably even higher in X-Men First Class given that he was using a nuclear reactor to charge himself.

Another thing to consider with Shaw is how much energy he has absorbed prior to entering the fight. It always seemed to me like part of his resistance to damage had to do with the fact that he already had energy to begin with. This is why in the comics he does things like running into walls and having his own goons beat on him. Don't forget that in the final fight with Magneto he had already absorbed a lot of the energy from the reactor. Would he have been able to completely stop Magneto without that prior energy? IMO it's possible that Magneto could have injured him (at least initially) via brute force he hadn't powered up with the reactor first. Similarly, IMO it's possible that if Shaw went into battle with Thor and/or the Hulk totally depowered they initially might be able to injure him despite his ability. And potentially overload him over time if he has some kind of limitation as to how much energy he can absorb.

It would certainly be an interesting fight to watch.

[Batman]

On the Hulk/Banner thing, someone mentioned killing Banner might not mean the Hulk will allow him to die. The suicide attempt was brought up with Hulk spitting out the bullet Banner shot into his head.
Thinking about this I don't think Banner every actually shot himself, Banner knew what he was duing thus his Hulk personality had time to come out.

Err-if Banner didn't manage to shoot himself, why would The Other Guy have to spit out the bullet? That very strongly suggests that Banner managed to pull the trigger...and it didn't natter, The Other Guy still persisted.

In the case of Mystique, can she get close enough undetected to kill Banner while he is not angry, without him having any knowledge of what is happening so he has no chance to become angry?

Not without some seriously convincing evidence that Banner didn't manage to pull the trigger...only for the Hulk to be around to spit out the bullet anyway.

[AMT]

Well movie shaw was able to use that energy to create shaped and controlled explosions both large scale and very small so he would be able to let loose the stored energy without being overloaded unless it's a single punch or he's too distracted to let it out.

[biostem]

A big factor here is experience - as good as Toad or Mystique may be in hand to hand combat, they aren't seasoned veterans, like Cap, Black Widow, and Hawkeye are. Given the little "interrogation scenes" between Black Widow and the Russian General, then the later one w/ Loki, she seems keen enough to read a person and get out the information she wants from them. She would probably be able to tell that Mystique didn't have the exact right mannerisms of someone she was mimicking, if it was of someone she already knew.

Really, the biggest factor is Magneto; He could probably crush the Iron man suit right away, so he'd be out, and Captain America would likely have to abandon his shield to remain effective. I'm not sure if he could lift up Mjolnir, but he could probably steer it away from him if thrown, or if Thor was swinging it at him. Also, toward the end of the movie, Thor donned what looked like scale-mail, so he would be easily controlled if that was metal, (perhaps not outright crushed, but at least thrown a good distance away).

Again, Magneto may be able to wrap Hulk in some metal so as to fling him away - I doubt he could harm the Hulk, but just getting him out of the area should be possible, if metal is around.

I think that Captain America could probably take on Sabertooth in hand combat if he had his shield, but without it, things might get tougher. The same goes for Toad.

Even if not functional, would Mystique be able to take on the appearance of the Iron Man suit? She might be able to fake a malfunction or something to get close to one of the other Avengers.

Also, the below scene, cut from the Ed Norton Hulk, shows that he never actually got to try and shoot himself - he transformed into the Hulk before he could even try:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwrkR3PELJ8

[PKRudeBoy]

On the Hulk/Banner thing, someone mentioned killing Banner might not mean the Hulk will allow him to die. The suicide attempt was brought up with Hulk spitting out the bullet Banner shot into his head.
Thinking about this I don't think Banner every actually shot himself, Banner knew what he was duing thus his Hulk personality had time to come out.

Err-if Banner didn't manage to shoot himself, why would The Other Guy have to spit out the bullet? That very strongly suggests that Banner managed to pull the trigger...and it didn't natter, The Other Guy still persisted.

In the case of Mystique, can she get close enough undetected to kill Banner while he is not angry, without him having any knowledge of what is happening so he has no chance to become angry?

Not without some seriously convincing evidence that Banner didn't manage to pull the trigger...only for the Hulk to be around to spit out the bullet anyway.

It could be that Banner pulling the trigger caused him to immediately Hulk out in self defence in the tiny window between him firing and the bullet actually hitting him. If a sniper put a bullet in Banner from a distance, the Other Guy wouldn't have the same warning.

[Patroklos]

On the Hulk/Banner thing, someone mentioned killing Banner might not mean the Hulk will allow him to die. The suicide attempt was brought up with Hulk spitting out the bullet Banner shot into his head.
Thinking about this I don't think Banner every actually shot himself, Banner knew what he was duing thus his Hulk personality had time to come out.

Err-if Banner didn't manage to shoot himself, why would The Other Guy have to spit out the bullet? That very strongly suggests that Banner managed to pull the trigger...and it didn't natter, The Other Guy still persisted.

In the case of Mystique, can she get close enough undetected to kill Banner while he is not angry, without him having any knowledge of what is happening so he has no chance to become angry?

Not without some seriously convincing evidence that Banner didn't manage to pull the trigger...only for the Hulk to be around to spit out the bullet anyway.

I didn't say Banner didn't pull the trigger, I said that since Hulk knows what Banner knows its reasonable that Hulk had a chance to react to Banner shooting himself in the head to prevent the suicide. He still gets shot in the head, it simply wasn't fatal because of hulk powers.

[Batman]

That would require the Hulk to emerge in the time it takes from Banner pulling the trigger to the bullet touching the roof of his mouth. Since the muzzle of the gun was likely touching the roof of his mouth that means the time it took from Banner pulling the trigger to the bullet leaving the barrel (and, if you want to be anal about it, achieving enough penetration to be lethal before the Other Guy takes over). Shall we investigate the speed of modern day bullets vs the distances involved in a guy shooting a gun he put in his own mouth?
If Hulk can react that fast he can ignore Mystique with impunity. The moment Mystique touches Banner the Hulk comes out and Mystique is a fatality.

[Simon_Jester]

One possibility is that movie-Hulk's powers are "fail-deadly:" if Banner's restraint is removed, the Hulk takes over. To the extent that Banner's restraint is removed, the Hulk takes over more thoroughly.

This is more in keeping with Banner being able to transform rapidly, at will, to the extent of performing massive, Herculean feats of strength within seconds of starting the transformation. If he had to wait around and consciously "get angrier," it would be hard for him to get that mad that fast.

So we imagine that the Hulk's power is directly related to the amount of Banner's restraint that has been removed. If Banner's restraints are removed because a big chunk of his brain is missing, then the Hulk takes over a lobotomized (or worse) body... but at a very high level of power because Banner's conscious mind isn't exerting any restraint at all, on account of having just been shot.

Without any restraint, Hulk regenerates very quickly. There'd still be some critical damage threshold, where you hurt Banner so badly that even the Hulk could not survive an equivalent injury, even at the height of his durability and regenerative powers. But even "ate a bullet" might not actually reach that limit for all I know.

[Batman]

Have we actually seen movie Hulk regenerating? From what I can tell, The Other Guy simply has a high degree of invulnerability and simply doesn't take any injuries he'd need to regenerate from.
But even assuming you're correct, what, exactly, can Mystique do that's going to exceed 'ate a bullet' damage?

[SCRawl]

Have we actually seen movie Hulk regenerating? From what I can tell, The Other Guy simply has a high degree of invulnerability and simply doesn't take any injuries he'd need to regenerate from.
But even assuming you're correct, what, exactly, can Mystique do that's going to exceed 'ate a bullet' damage?

There's a scene from the first Hulk movie in which he heals rather absurdly quickly from a flesh wound. So there's some evidence for a "healing factor".

[Simon_Jester]

Trouble is, it's ambiguous whether the first Hulk movie is in the same canon as the Hulk 2 and Avengers Hulk.

Have we actually seen movie Hulk regenerating? From what I can tell, The Other Guy simply has a high degree of invulnerability and simply doesn't take any injuries he'd need to regenerate from.

That's a fair point. I'm not sure we've ever actually seen him unambiguously injured by... um, anything, really. Getting blasted by wave after wave of alien ray guns at least appears to slow him down, but no unambiguous evidence of him being seriously harmed. Come to think of it, I think he still has a swollen jaw or something after getting clocked by Mjolnir aboard the helicarrier, even a few hours later, so I may be completely off base in attributing regenerative powers to him. Comic-Hulk has utterly insane ability to regenerate, in addition to being nigh-invulnerable, but the jury's still out on whether movie-Hulk has the same ability.

[Although it being a comic-book power of Hulk at least argues in favor of it being a movie power as well; most of the movie depictions we've seen so far are at least broadly in line with what their comic-book versions are capable of]

But even assuming you're correct, what, exactly, can Mystique do that's going to exceed 'ate a bullet' damage?

I don't think she could. Wasn't my idea in the first place.

What it comes down to is that if we take "Banner shot himself, the other guy spat the bullet out" at face value, there are two explanations:

1) Banner can subconsciously transform in milliseconds even when he has no conscious desire to do so, between the time he decides to pull the trigger and the time the bullet hits the inside of his mouth, OR...

2) Banner's transformation is held in check by his own will*, and after massive brain damage "the other guy" takes over and heals the damage.

I favor (2), because it explains why he can transform rapidly at will and is consistent with the one explanation of the transformation process I can remember him giving: "I'm always angry."

[Kojiro]

I believe Hulk has been wounded, in the 2008 Norton film. At the end on the rooftop I believe Abomination sticks him with one of his elbow spikes. We actually get a nice clear shot of a wound and blood. It doesn't look like it heals at all in that final scene. It seems his skin is just absurdly difficult to break.

[Havok]

Christ. Hawkeye puts a carbon fiber, ceramic tipped arrow in Magneto's eye hole from who knows fucking where and the rest of the Brotherhood scatter.

Winner, Hawkeye. Does Fury even bother to call in the rest of the Avengers?