You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Yes, but there is a difference between "blending in" on a day trip or a holiday or whatever and actually living there permanently.

EDIT: Besides, "blend in" apparently means exactly that: learn to dress like a muggle so you don't draw attention to yourself. That says nothing of knowing how anything works.
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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

If this thread is set in the present day, Kingsely Shacklebolt is probably the Minister and McGonnagle or whoever succeeded her is probably Headmaster or Headmistress. That should give some idea of the reaction we're likely to get.
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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Yeah, but the only reference we have is that exhibited in the books and films, so I tihnk that's what we have to go with.
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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by Gandalf »

I'd probably split it into a philosophy/history course as a way of explaining "this is who Muggles are and this is how they think/act." I would prescribe Foucault's Discipline and Punish and History of Sexuality as a means of examining (bio)power in Muggle society. For the history side, I would have them read Zinn's A People's History of the United States and Thompson's The Making of the British Working Class amongst a bunch of other stuff.
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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Yeah, but the only reference we have is that exhibited in the books and films, so I tihnk that's what we have to go with.
Having a muggle teach a class suggests a more pro-Muggle society than in the books.
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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

True.

But this was "by act of Q" so we can't assume that we are in a friendlier time.
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Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Clarification regarding the time and political situation from Zor would be appreciated.
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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by Tribble »

Also the nature of how Q put us in this position. If we are subject to truth serum/legimens prior to arriving, there really isn't much we could do. They'd find out what we were planning, and if it hurt their interests they would modify our memories accordingly.

We could very well end up being a fully dedicated teacher and fully rewarding career while not remembering that our original goal was to expose them to the world. Or alternatively, they'd simply erase the notion from our minds that magic exists and find someone who genuinely wants to teach the subject for the students' benefit.

The only way we could become a teacher while simultaneously spying on them would be if Q insured that they never bothered to take any precautions.
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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by Batman »

Why, exactly, would we be in a position to do any planning in the first place? The OP doesn't say anything about us getting time to prepare for, well, anything, it only states we're now in charge of muggle studies. For all we know we go to bed in our homes one morning night and wake up in Hogwarts.
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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by Iroscato »

Assuming this is Hogwarts in the year 2014, it's been less than 20 years since the war with Voldemort ended - fresh in the memory of the parents of students. In many ways, this was their equivalent of our WW2 - many casualties on both sides, a race purity-obsessed nutcase committing genocide, the second massive conflict in a generation.
It may be interesting to compare the Second Wizarding War with the Second World War, perhaps as an assignment. I could attempt to show that, magic or non-magic, human beings still find ways to do terrible things to one another.
It would help establish that muggles and wizards aren't really all that different...certainly food for thought. It would be aimed at the higher years though, as it is a pretty heavy subject.
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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Tribble wrote:Also the nature of how Q put us in this position. If we are subject to truth serum/legimens prior to arriving, there really isn't much we could do. They'd find out what we were planning, and if it hurt their interests they would modify our memories accordingly.

We could very well end up being a fully dedicated teacher and fully rewarding career while not remembering that our original goal was to expose them to the world. Or alternatively, they'd simply erase the notion from our minds that magic exists and find someone who genuinely wants to teach the subject for the students' benefit.

The only way we could become a teacher while simultaneously spying on them would be if Q insured that they never bothered to take any precautions.
I won't reveal the wizards. That would be disastrous. I want to encourage reform so that some day the wizards can be revealed.
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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by Tribble »

Well, I don't advocate revealing them either, but it seems a moot point because it's highly unlikely we'd have the opportunity to do so anyways.
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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by bilateralrope »

Directly encouraging reform could be dangerous to your employment there. I wouldn't be willing to take the risk of someone deciding that the talk of reform is dangerous and that removing me would be the best way to end it.

The most I'd do is pick my lessons so that they start asking if they should end the secrecy. Then, if they ask my, I refuse to answer. Or maybe say that I don't understand enough about the wizarding world to know the answer, which would be the truth.
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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Chimaera wrote:Assuming this is Hogwarts in the year 2014, it's been less than 20 years since the war with Voldemort ended - fresh in the memory of the parents of students. In many ways, this was their equivalent of our WW2 - many casualties on both sides, a race purity-obsessed nutcase committing genocide, the second massive conflict in a generation.
It may be interesting to compare the Second Wizarding War with the Second World War, perhaps as an assignment. I could attempt to show that, magic or non-magic, human beings still find ways to do terrible things to one another.
It would help establish that muggles and wizards aren't really all that different...certainly food for thought. It would be aimed at the higher years though, as it is a pretty heavy subject.
That's an intriguing idea.

Their are also similarities between the war with Voldemort and the American Civil War. They are both horrifying civil wars and they both occurred at least partly because of racism.

And you could use the way racist violence and inequality continued for so long after the war as a cautionary tale.
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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by Zor »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Clarification regarding the time and political situation from Zor would be appreciated.
Its 2014, well after the end of the events of the Books: Albus Potter, Rose Weasly and Scorpius Malfoy are among your students.

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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by jwl »

Highlord Laan wrote:
Tribble wrote:
The Vortex Empire wrote:Discreetly collect as much evidence as I can of the magical world, then send it to every media source I can to expose the magical worlds existence. Then go into hiding from the Obliviators, and set up a system where without me entering codes into a system, the evidence will continue to be sent out at regular intervals.
That would likely result in the deaths of many, if not most of them.
I fail to see a problem here. We're talking about an entire society that abuses non-magical people in every way, up to and including raping memories of abuse from their minds to avoid any and all forms of justice.
I what way do they exploit muggles? They keep muggles out of their way but they don't really do anything more to my knowledge. Anyway, without wizarding society controlling them you'd unleash a legion of magical beasts and creatures, like Dementors, Giants, Lethifolds, and Nundus. You wouldn't want that, even if you don't care about the wizards themselves.
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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by PainRack »

The whole point of Muggle studies appears to be about helping the wizards hide from mortals.
I mean, Arthur's department job comprises of nothing more than giving Muggle information to other departments like Kingsley and focus on wayward charms or Muggle baiting.

They also helped hide the World Cup.

Since that's the only department that required a Muggle studies, we can extrapolate that Hogwarts purpose for the class is to teach Wizards on how to blend in, with some co operation at best.
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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by Ahriman238 »

PainRack wrote:The whole point of Muggle studies appears to be about helping the wizards hide from mortals.
I mean, Arthur's department job comprises of nothing more than giving Muggle information to other departments like Kingsley and focus on wayward charms or Muggle baiting.

They also helped hide the World Cup.

Since that's the only department that required a Muggle studies, we can extrapolate that Hogwarts purpose for the class is to teach Wizards on how to blend in, with some co operation at best.
I may have to dig in the book a bit, but I seem to remember Hermione's homework for that class included things like "describe the postal system." "organization of the British Government" and "list seven uses for electricity." Clearly there is some earnest attempt at real understanding.

Then consider that Arthur Weasley is one of the Ministry's foremost experts on the topic, or Shacklebolt, Auror now Minister's confusion over "firelegs."
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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by Murazor »

Ahriman238 wrote:Then consider that Arthur Weasley is one of the Ministry's foremost experts on the topic, or Shacklebolt, Auror now Minister's confusion over "firelegs."
He was also undercover and described as an outstandingly excellent secretary by the muggle Prime Minister, who didn't suspect in the slightest that he was a wizard. So either he crammed hard in the year prior to HBP or the "firelegs" line is very deliberate obfuscating stupidity at work.
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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by Crazedwraith »

Murazor wrote:
Ahriman238 wrote:Then consider that Arthur Weasley is one of the Ministry's foremost experts on the topic, or Shacklebolt, Auror now Minister's confusion over "firelegs."
He was also undercover and described as an outstandingly excellent secretary by the muggle Prime Minister, who didn't suspect in the slightest that he was a wizard. So either he crammed hard in the year prior to HBP or the "firelegs" line is very deliberate obfuscating stupidity at work.

That's pretty much it. Shacklebolt didn't want to be seen to be friendly with Weasley who was a well known Dumbledore supporter. Hence faked up tension between them. Plus Shacklebolt was slacking off on the hunt for Sirius Black, another order member.
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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by Simon_Jester »

Zixinus wrote:Is it even possible to convert digital footage to film that doesn't need electricity to be shown? Aside light source for which I am sure that a magic equivalent can be used. Do they even make such equipment and film anymore?
You could use one of those 'field trips' to travel to a location where more normal projector technology works properly.
They also need to understand the problem made by smartphones, how even brain-wiping isn't enough anymore. You really have to be careful. Not to mention having to give them enough context so they will not stand out incredibly when they ask why they don't have a cellphone (I'll probably try to convince my students to try having one just so they can be reached).
That's a good point; if they want to blend in they can not have cell phones, but they need to know what one is and, yes, understand the implications. Thinking about it, that pretty well dates the Potterverse to the '90s... and come to think of it, also dates almost all masquerade fiction in its core premise to the pre-2005-or-so time when not every person carried a camera all the time.
Eternal_Freedom wrote:Granted, I forgot about those. But I can't see wizards winning a war against muggles, no matter what the pureblood idiots claim. This is borne out by everyone who isn't on Voldemort's side trying to maintain secrecy, going tot he lengths of mass mind-raping to do it, because they are that scared of what muggles would do. Hell, even after Voldemort seizes control the Ministry of Magic, secrecy is maintained.

I think that if more young wizards and witches knew more about muggles, they would begin to understand their position.
The basic point here is that you're a Muggle Studies professor, not the Muggle Propaganda Minister.

Also, note that if this occurs in the present day, the events of the Harry Potter novels happened almost twenty years ago; one wonders what's happened since.
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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by jwl »

Whe it comes to muggle tech in hogwarts, you could either get someone to build (or buy, if one it already exists) a replica that works as if it is muggle tech but is actually based on magic (I'm guessing you could hire arthur or george weasley for this), or you could get them to somehow create a temporary loophole in hogwarts like they did for apparition in book 6.
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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by Zixinus »

Couple of questions:

- Just how are we in the position? Again, even if I would re-read the books that may not prepare me in how the world actually works. It would be a bad idea to just bring a muggle in without the muggle having any education for the wizard world.

- Do we get a wand, other assorted necessary paraphernalia for living in the wizarding world and at least basic knowledge of how to use them? Because I won't get far teaching if I have to run to another teacher just to get rid of prank-hexes and other problems. I don't expect the students to challenge me to a duel or anything, but I can't do much of a job if I'm defenseless against even regular students.

- How good is that budget and can the wizard-money be used to convert it to regular money? Because if I can get an electric-room in the school where electricity and electronics work, one of my first steps would be to buy a bunch of used smartphones or even computers. Maybe even old gameboys that good students can get as rewards.

- As a teacher, do I get access to other materials and resources? Mostly to build educational tools, like projectors and mock-muggle places.

- Most important question: do we even get time to prepare? Or are we transported straight to our first day of teaching? Because teachers can build lesson-plans and such.

- Also, just how well will we know the existing muggle teaching material? What is the existing muggle material? What topics are covered?

- What are exactly the school's current level of expectations from a muggle-studies teacher? Do they want their students to just fit in while they go in-between places in the wizard-world? Or do they also want non-muggles to be able to do everyday muggle things, like use microwaves to cook stuff and watch TV? Or even go and function in muggle society? Even be able to talk to muggles regularly and be able to act as muggle citizens.

I wouldn't even try to reveal the wizard world to the larger world. That will juts result in big bloodshed and nastiness for everyone involved. Call me a coward but I don't want to be killed instigating something that will likely get me just killed horribly?

No, I am now the tutor in one of the most prestigious schools in the UK at least and I have students coming to me that wish to learn about the muggle world. I have their attention and I do it properly, I will have future citizens who likely to take prominent place in the wizarding world.

And this is roughly what I'd try to get into their heads:
- The decision to separate to hide from the muggle world is a wizard's decision. It is something enforced by wizards, not by muggles*.
- Technology and magic are both humans using what they have to live.
- Muggles are just as much human beings as wizards. They merely live in a completely different world. They are the same species with the same kinds of people just living under different rules.
- Muggle society is changing and many muggles already suspect the existence of magic. Most muggles just don't find it and move on.
- Muggles are empowered and keep empowering themselves with new technology.

And yes, put the conclusion of "this game of hide-and-seek that wizards do can't go on forever". I need to get them to come to this conclusion by themselves. If they get it than you have a generation wondering what will happen not if the wizard world is discovered, but when and how.
What they need to realize is that it should be the wizard world that needs to slowly comes out of the shadows. Not now, not even in their generation, but still something that will happen in the future.

I'd try to constantly but gently keep challenging my students in how they view the world and how the muggle worlds works. I need to expose and attack misconceptions with facts. They need also to be exposed to a muggle mindsets about the world.

Among other topics, I'd try to create classes preparing muggles for specialized roles in muggle society. Such as working in an office (using computers for office work), self-defense in the muggle world (a gun will kill you just fine), typical child activities ("I have muggle relatives and I just became an uncle/aunt"), etc.

Two side-projects:
- Experiment with magic to see how well would magic and more modern technology interact. See if we can make magic-friendly or even magical computers. I am sure that wizards would happily interact with the muggle world more if they feel they are still empowered in it.
- A fencing club. Nothing to do with muggle studies, but I have ghosts who actually studied under fencing tutors with knowledge that today there is an entire community trying to piece together from scraps. I am sure we can use magic to make it safe for kids and it would be essentially a sports-club. Would be a good activity to get wizard-borns that would otherwise be hesitant to interact with muggle-borns. I expect muggle-born because if they are amazed by "holy shit I'm going to become a wizard" they'll probably be some that are attracted "holy shit, real swords that I can learn how to use!".

A question for other members: what would you bring your students for London for? Aside raw exposure to muggles, where would you bring them? Museums and such are nice, but you need your students to be exposed to how muggle technology works and how their world works. What would you pick? A technology expo? A mall? Ideally a place where they can try a lot of things for themselves (an arcade would be a good place) and interact muggles without preconceptions.

* Do the books ever mention why wizards decided to create an entire secret world? Any actual history?
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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by jwl »

Zixinus wrote:Can the wizard-money be used to convert it to regular money? Because if I can get an electric-room in the school where electricity and electronics work, one of my first steps would be to buy a bunch of used smartphones or even computers. Maybe even old gameboys that good students can get as rewards.
Hermione's parents converted their muggle money to wizard money so I presume you can convert back.
self-defense in the muggle world (a gun will kill you just fine)
Why? are you expecting them to want to integrate into really, really seedy areas or war zones or something? Most places don't have random people wanting to shoot you in the modern muggle world.
* Do the books ever mention why wizards decided to create an entire secret world? Any actual history?
The books have two major explanations I think:
1. A historical relic from medieval witch trials (although apparently burning witches and wizards has no effect and can even be enjoyable anyway because of flame-freezing charms, so not sure why they bothered).
2. Muggles might pester them to use magic to solve all their problems, staying secret is less bother (although I may be mixing this up with another fiction).
Pre-witch trials, wizards lived out in the open and also helped out and were hired by muggles like in The Wizard and the Hopping Pot by Beedle the Bard.

One of my own ideas of why they remain separate is because the muggle and wizard authorities would prefer not to have a power struggle when essentially the existence of two parallel states are discovered.
This is further messed up by the fact that wizard boundaries and Muggle boundaries do not necessarily overlap. For example, I'm pretty sure the UK Minister of Magic has power over Ireland, whilst the Muggle prime minister does not. Which Ministry of Magic controls the Falklands? That is another potential minefield. And that's just the UK. What happens in more complicated countries like the former USSR?
And what about the power of the said countries? It is entirely possible that Iraq is a political, military, and economic giant in the wizarding world, whilst, say, canada is much weaker in all those aspects. Revealing the existence of the wizarding world would put a spanner in the works of world politics, both sides might have decided it isn't worth it.
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Re: You are in charge of Muggle Studies (RAR!)

Post by Zixinus »

Why? are you expecting them to want to integrate into really, really seedy areas or war zones or something? Most places don't have random people wanting to shoot you in the modern muggle world.
That's just a title. I'm not so much concerned about gun violence (which is more rare in the UK anyway*), as giving general common-sense self-defense stuff. Don't think just "how to handle a mugger" but "how to avoid getting being mugged in the first place and how to recognize a dangerous area". General dangers in a common UK metropolitan areas that is obvious to a muggle but not to a wizard. This is stuff that regular muggle people don't always know, never mind someone living practically in a different world.

I also concerned about wizards being overconfident against muggles, thinking that they can get out of any situation with a few spells. I want to teach how to avoid getting into those kind of situations altogether. Also giving some obvious ideas what to do (such as "JUST RUN AWAY!") As well as giving a more realistic expectation of what may happen ("They tackled you from behind and are holding you hands down, you can't reach your wand, now what?"). I don't want to terrify my students, just give them a healthy pinch of fear that they are not invincible in the muggle world.

* You can also imagine an alternative title of "a muggle knife will kill you just fine" as well.
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