What should a shaped charge do against a superlarge creature

[Kitsune]

Assume that a creature is just tough due to its size and maybe incredibly thick skin (no magical immunity to normal weapon) - something maybe like rhino hide, what would hitting said creature with a shaped charge do?

What I mean is hitting it with something like a LAW Rocket. Trying to describe what a LAW rocket might do to a dragon.

[LaCroix]

At first, you have to consider that a few kgs of explosives just detonated against it's side, with obvious effects (pressure wave, fireball)

On top of that, you'll have a small (half inch to inch) charred hole in the centre of that afflicted area, which will lead deep inside the body. Depending on the size of the animal, you would either have an exit hole at the other side, or worst case, a searing hot metal rod trapped inside, burning/cooking the surrounding tissue where it had come to a stop. (The wound channel itself would ony be moderately burned, as the impactor travels too fast.)

If that stuff were to hit bone, it would probably fragment insid ethe beast, doing even more heat damage over a larger area. Having various parts of your internal workings seared by molten metal is, as a rule of thumb, not quite healty.

[Beowulf]

Shaped charges do not impart any appreciable heat to the penetrator. They don't melt their way through the target.

[Purple]

Shaped charges do not impart any appreciable heat to the penetrator. They don't melt their way through the target.

Whilst it is absolutely true that they do not melt their way through their target I would not go so far as to say that a jet of copper that just flew out of a fireball isn't hot enough to cause serious burns.

[Sea Skimmer]

Want a picture of what a RPG head shot looks like when it happens to a human being? For some reason the US Army thought they should put that in a medical manual.

Any real creature or creature made of real flesh-bone will be killed by a very small explosion in direct contact with its skin, barring perhaps far extremities in a limb or tail. You don't need a shaped charge, the shock effect alone will inflict massive trauma and pulp the lungs leading to rapid death from hemorrhaging and asphyxiation at the same time. Nearby organs will outright burst apart. Contact explosions are immensely more damaging then ones even a few feet away, the areas of tens of thousands of psi are just tiny like that. While tissue is squishy, in the end live creatures are mostly water and have very limited ability to compress before well, bursting, occurs.

With a LAW sized shaped charge all of that will happen and the jet will blow a expanding crater through creature and out the other side. Something like a blue whale might be big enough that the shear fluid mass will prevent overpenetration, but in that case this means the entire warhead jet will breakup from turbulence, turning it into an expanding cone of fragmentation. That will mean even worse damage. Its not going to come to a stop as an intact rod. With a large enough dragon you might get that, or you might get partial jet fragmentation followed by overpenetration leaving a BIG exit wound.

Internal burn damage will be all but irrelevant simply because any area able to be burned will already be destroyed by shock effect. It'd be burning dead bits of detached and squished tissue. On the exterior burns should occur to otherwise not much damaged tissue near the edge of the fireball, though really tough animal skin like rhino hide might have some resistance to this, I am not sure. Tough skin can provide some blast protection in principle, but it would just not matter against a contact hit the size of a LAW. Might start to matter against a hand grenade sort of explosion.

Though this all does assume a conventional shaped charge warhead. We can now and do make ones that are also incendiaries and can entirely combust as they penetrate.

[Purple]

Want a picture of what a RPG head shot looks like when it happens to a human being? For some reason the US Army thought they should put that in a medical manual.

YES, please!

[Lord Relvenous]

Want a picture of what a RPG head shot looks like when it happens to a human being? For some reason the US Army thought they should put that in a medical manual.

YES, please!

I can understand being interested in the effects, but this is just bit overboard. If you get off on it that much, I'm sure you can just google it.

[Purple]

Want a picture of what a RPG head shot looks like when it happens to a human being? For some reason the US Army thought they should put that in a medical manual.

YES, please!

I can understand being interested in the effects, but this is just bit overboard. If you get off on it that much, I'm sure you can just google it.

Welcome to the internet.

[Simon_Jester]

How charming. It thinks its ability to repeat a slogan somehow compensates for its shock-jock contemptibility...

[Darth Nostril]

Want a picture of what a RPG head shot looks like when it happens to a human being? For some reason the US Army thought they should put that in a medical manual.

Any real creature or creature made of real flesh-bone will be killed by a very small explosion in direct contact with its skin, barring perhaps far extremities in a limb or tail. You don't need a shaped charge, the shock effect alone will inflict massive trauma and pulp the lungs leading to rapid death from hemorrhaging and asphyxiation at the same time. Nearby organs will outright burst apart. Contact explosions are immensely more damaging then ones even a few feet away, the areas of tens of thousands of psi are just tiny like that. While tissue is squishy, in the end live creatures are mostly water and have very limited ability to compress before well, bursting, occurs.

With a LAW sized shaped charge all of that will happen and the jet will blow a expanding crater through creature and out the other side. Something like a blue whale might be big enough that the shear fluid mass will prevent overpenetration, but in that case this means the entire warhead jet will breakup from turbulence, turning it into an expanding cone of fragmentation. That will mean even worse damage. Its not going to come to a stop as an intact rod. With a large enough dragon you might get that, or you might get partial jet fragmentation followed by overpenetration leaving a BIG exit wound.

Internal burn damage will be all but irrelevant simply because any area able to be burned will already be destroyed by shock effect. It'd be burning dead bits of detached and squished tissue. On the exterior burns should occur to otherwise not much damaged tissue near the edge of the fireball, though really tough animal skin like rhino hide might have some resistance to this, I am not sure. Tough skin can provide some blast protection in principle, but it would just not matter against a contact hit the size of a LAW. Might start to matter against a hand grenade sort of explosion.

Though this all does assume a conventional shaped charge warhead. We can now and do make ones that are also incendiaries and can entirely combust as they penetrate.

Wish someone had told all of this to the makers of Cloverfield.

[Darth Nostril]

Want a picture of what a RPG head shot looks like when it happens to a human being? For some reason the US Army thought they should put that in a medical manual.

YES, please!

Twat.

[Sidewinder]

Want a picture of what a RPG head shot looks like when it happens to a human being? For some reason the US Army thought they should put that in a medical manual.

May I ask which manual this was published in, so I can order it off of Amazon.com?

[Ziggy Stardust]

I don't quite understand why people are on Purple's case. I'm interested in seeing that picture, as well. Academically, I find it interesting. It's not like we want someone to go out and shoot someone with an RPG just so we can see what it looks like. No reason to get your panties in a twist just because we are interested in seeing something gory. I mean, "shock-jock contemptibility", Simon? Really?

Anyway, yeah, I want to see it, too. And if you really think that is somehow some sort of big moral failing you can just go fuck yourself.

[Simon_Jester]

Put this way. It's not the interest that bothers me, it's overtone of begging. The implied pornography-of-violence aspect.

Which was then followed up by the lowest-common-denominator line "welcome to the internet," which always resounds in my ears with the subtext "yeah, look at how nasty we are!"

And yes, I think that's objectionable. Do I expect everyone to agree with me? No. Do I feel within my rights to criticize it? Yes.

[Vendetta]

Shaped charges do not impart any appreciable heat to the penetrator. They don't melt their way through the target.

Depends on your definition of "appreciable". A HEAT warhead copper jet is about 450 degrees, which would burn and char any points of contact quite quickly (especially if the jet was stopped inside the target), even though as Skimmer pointed out anything that was in contact with it would be dead already from the shock of having the jet push through it so cooking it wouldn't matter too much.

[Purple]

Put this way. It's not the interest that bothers me, it's overtone of begging. The implied pornography-of-violence aspect.

I just wanted to make sure he actually posts it that's all. I assure you my interest in it is purely academic. It so happens that I frequent a RP board that handles warfare in the modern age and it might make for good reference material.

Which was then followed up by the lowest-common-denominator line "welcome to the internet," which always resounds in my ears with the subtext "yeah, look at how nasty we are!"

To be perfectly honest that comment was not the smartest thing I ever posted. But seriously, how the hell was I supposed to respond? How do you respond when someone randomly jumps into a conversation to insult you? It's beyond the usual dickishness you come to expect of this forum as that is at least mostly on topic. This was just pure threadjacking to offend. It kind of caught me flat footed.

[Simon_Jester]

To be fair, if you want to call me a self-righteous jackass you have a leg to stand on; I don't feel like I really overreacted but I can stretch far enough to believe I might be wrong about that.

And that would have:

1) More accurately represented your real objection to my statement, and
2) Done so in a way that doesn't make you look like a generic 15-year-old 4chan poster.

[Lord Relvenous]

Anyway, yeah, I want to see it, too. And if you really think that is somehow some sort of big moral failing you can just go fuck yourself.

There's a difference between "yeah, I'd like to see that" and bold, allcaps, expanded font, red "YES, please!". One is a display of academic curiosity. The other, I don't even know what. Like I said, if he's excited enough about the prospect to post something that obviously and overly enthusiastic, I'm sure he could find the material himself with a quick google search.

Think about it this way. Purple, you, and Sea Skimmer are all in a room. Sea Skimmer asks if you'd like to see the picture, and you respond with a nod and "yeah, I'd like to see it". He asks Purple, and Purple squeals, claps his hands, and bounces on his tippy-toes. Is that an effective demonstration of academic curiosity like yours was? It's not a question of interest, it's a matter of composure.

[Purple]

There's a difference between "yeah, I'd like to see that" and bold, allcaps, expanded font, red "YES, please!". One is a display of academic curiosity. The other, I don't even know what. Like I said, if he's excited enough about the prospect to post something that obviously and overly enthusiastic, I'm sure he could find the material himself with a quick google search.

Well I will admit to enthusiasm. It is not every day that you get to see something interesting like that. Especially not from a source as credible as an army manual.

Think about it this way. Purple, you, and Sea Skimmer are all in a room. Sea Skimmer asks if you'd like to see the picture, and you respond with a nod and "yeah, I'd like to see it". He asks Purple, and Purple squeals, claps his hands, and bounces on his tippy-toes. Is that an effective demonstration of academic curiosity like yours was? It's not a question of interest, it's a matter of composure.

Did I come off as that?

[Imperial Overlord]

Did I come off as that?

Yes, you did.

[Purple]

Did I come off as that?

Yes, you did.

Well I can safely sat that was not the intention.

[Sea Skimmer]

You came off as an ass from Ogrish Purple. I don't really give a damn but stuff like that really makes you look dumb and others dumb if they leave it unquestioned. I questioned myself if I even wanted to bring it up, but I wont turn tale now. Fuck it, Al Jazeera will put worse stuff on TV and it wont be forty years old.

May I ask which manual this was published in, so I can order it off of Amazon.com?

Why do that? Its all public domain and the considerable majority of manuals and guides and what not can be found online for free, and in some cases from official sources, CARL for example has most obsolete manuals from the world wars. Also has a server slower then one from 1990s Russia but hey, free is free. Though I suspect newer stuff will become harder to get now that the US Army is abandoning the manual system as it once was; I know they already locked off a couple servers that were once public access, probably just for server load reasons. Some nuclear and air defense stuff is really hard to get (impossible even when willing to pay !) not because its classified but just because never were that many printed let alone left but most of everything one can get free, including this one. I have several hundred of them at this point if your ever looking for something specific.

The relevant document is Conventional Warfare: Ballistic, Blast and Burn Injuries and can be found here, if in pieces. The relevant image is on page 30, though it shows a head wound inflicted on someone inside an armored vehicle to be clear. In other words direct hit would be even worse.
http://www.cs.amedd.army.mil/borden/Por ... 6747614173
https://ke.army.mil/bordeninstitute/pub ... s23-37.pdf

Reviewing the text a bit, it would appear thermal injury from shaped charges is very considerable even with non contact hits. That makes sense thinking further, since if you're inside vehicle you don't just have the jet hitting you, you also have a large amount of red hot spall plus some measure of explosive gas forced through the hole and possible secondary combustion products. But it still remains the fact that the worst of this will hit tissue already destroyed. In the open you will not have spall, but you of course then get hit by much more of the explosive thermal pulse and gas. RDX burns hot enough to break the molecular bonds of solid steel after all and that's the explosive base of most shaped charges, or else increasingly now HMX which is even hotter and more powerful.

Oh and as a extra WARNING for anyone who goes and browses these medical books, they are not entirely censored as far as human genitalia goes, or at least I have seen versions which are not, and well, it can get very bad even in the context of people who don't mind gore. For example if you really want to learn something, did you know the scrotum can be used as a temporary bandage for the penis? That's sure not censored.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

I can load the regular site just fine, but Firefox throws up security warnings regarding untrusted connections when I try to view the actual PDFs. There are a whole lot of interesting books available, but I'm ultimately a bit leery, considering the aforementioned security issue.

[Purple]

I can load the regular site just fine, but Firefox throws up security warnings regarding untrusted connections when I try to view the actual PDFs. There are a whole lot of interesting books available, but I'm ultimately a bit leery, considering the aforementioned security issue.

Same here.

[Simon_Jester]

I can load the regular site just fine, but Firefox throws up security warnings regarding untrusted connections when I try to view the actual PDFs. There are a whole lot of interesting books available, but I'm ultimately a bit leery, considering the aforementioned security issue.

A site like army.mil, honestly, I'd expect to be safe.

Then again, I don't know if ke.army.mil or cs.amedd.army.mil are under the aegis of whatever people the Army uses to keep their own site free of malicious crap.