Game of Thrones Season 4 Discussion (TV Spoilers Only)

[TheHammer]

All the wildling villages are deserted - this is a mass migration, rather than an army. Mance is bringing women, children, the elderly, the sick, everyone.

The figure of 100,000 presumably includes all these people, and is almost certainly an exaggeration by Mance, given that the most powerful lords in the more populous south can only raise a fraction of that amount.

I agree that the nights watch should be down into negative figures by now given the amount that died in this episode though. And presumably Jon is planning to kill Mance with that blacksmith's hammer...

Remember, we've heard misfigures for numbers tossed around before in the series. In Season one Westeros believed that the Dothraki horde consisted of around 100,000 warriors, yet on the Dothraki side this figure was placed at 40,000. I believe its a hint towards how the fog of war and misinformation

As for the nights watch, I would be curious as to how many men actually died. Sure it SEEMED like a lot, but I highly doubt the show runners would be so stupid as to show more then 100 night watch deaths. I'd peg the number as closer to 50, obviously a crippling blow none the less. I'm sure some ubernerd will do a kill by kill count from the episode to tell us how many they lost on screen.

As for Jon's plan, From Mance's perspective, I don't believe he knows that Jon has joined back up with the Nights watch. My guess is he is hoping to continue that charade and hope for an opportunity. A desperate plan, a bad plan, but the only one that seemed to have any hope of success at that point.

[TheHammer]

One thing to take note of, from the past episode Roose Bolton's description of the size of the North, being as large as the other 7 kingdoms combined - if it weren't already fairly obvious from the opening credits map view. This fact alone means that from a living space standpoint, it could easily take on the wildling host should a peaceful negotiation take place to allow them through (not that I expect one). And the North would be stronger for it. Obviously there might be concerns for food production and the economy, but given the sparse population I suspect both of those are vastly underdeveloped in the North.

[Iroscato]

I wonder roughly what the population of the Seven Kingdoms is. Back in season 1 Renly remarked that 'millions' died in the last war, which suggests to me a population pool of a few tens of millions at least.
But seeing as Westoros is meant to be about the size of South America...that would indeed be a very sparse population distribution.

[Irbis]

I wonder roughly what the population of the Seven Kingdoms is. Back in season 1 Renly remarked that 'millions' died in the last war, which suggests to me a population pool of a few tens of millions at least.
But seeing as Westoros is meant to be about the size of South America...that would indeed be a very sparse population distribution.

That statement is kind of misleading. Westeros (the part with 6 kingdoms) is at best size of Argentina + Chile. Add another chunk the size of Brazil + Venezuela (North + lands beyond wall) and you get sort of South America sized mass, but vast majority of the population will be in the first bit, making it not so sparse.

[Haminal10]

I kind of felt bad for the Wildlings tasked with climbing the wall. They had a 0% chance influencing the battle in any real way, as the climb takes such a long time. And then after they were good and tired from climbing for several hours, they get obliterated by the wall scythe for their troubles. Messy!

[Scrib]

One thing to take note of, from the past episode Roose Bolton's description of the size of the North, being as large as the other 7 kingdoms combined - if it weren't already fairly obvious from the opening credits map view. This fact alone means that from a living space standpoint, it could easily take on the wildling host should a peaceful negotiation take place to allow them through (not that I expect one). And the North would be stronger for it. Obviously there might be concerns for food production and the economy, but given the sparse population I suspect both of those are vastly underdeveloped in the North.

It would? There are plenty of asshole wildlings that consider it their right to reave across the land. Sure, you might have a ton of peaceful people but there is the question of their hyper-individualistic culture and how they'd react to being asked to provide men in exchange for protection, land and food (without which they join the asshole reavers)

[biostem]

Was there a reason the Night's Watch couldn't just retreat up the wall, and raise the elevator with them? If the only control for it was on the ground in the small fort, then that's a really bad design.

Also, why not have a bunch of wildlings climb the wall from an area away from any of the little bases, group up there, then attack the guards on equal footing?

Too bad no one in the tunnel fight thought to bring a couple bows/crossbows. Apparently, they didn't think to back away from the gate, let the giant injure/tire himself out against said gate, then just take care of him from a better vantage point. If it hadn't been for the outer gate closing behind that giant, they would have been totally compromised...

[septesix]

Was there a reason the Night's Watch couldn't just retreat up the wall, and raise the elevator with them? If the only control for it was on the ground in the small fort, then that's a really bad design.

If they retreat to the top, then the wildlings on this side can easily open up the games and allow the army through. The Night Watch on top of the wall will be near powerless to stop them

Too bad no one in the tunnel fight thought to bring a couple bows/crossbows. Apparently, they didn't think to back away from the gate, let the giant injure/tire himself out against said gate, then just take care of him from a better vantage point. If it hadn't been for the outer gate closing behind that giant, they would have been totally compromised...

That giant LIFT a freaking the whole metal-casted outer gate! it won't take long (or much effort) for him to break through the much lighter inner gate. Also, he was pelted with arrows already ( "We have shoot 20 arrows at the thing!") and it didn't slow him down on bit.

[LaCroix]

A fucking giant archer!
Made my day...

[Vympel]

One thing to take note of, from the past episode Roose Bolton's description of the size of the North, being as large as the other 7 kingdoms combined - if it weren't already fairly obvious from the opening credits map view. This fact alone means that from a living space standpoint, it could easily take on the wildling host should a peaceful negotiation take place to allow them through (not that I expect one). And the North would be stronger for it. Obviously there might be concerns for food production and the economy, but given the sparse population I suspect both of those are vastly underdeveloped in the North.

If you recall Season 3, you'll remember that Bran & Co travel through an area called "Brandon's Gift", which was set aside to the Night's Watch - presumably by the first Brandon Stark, for the "sustenance and support" of the Night's Watch - except as the Night's Watch numbers dwindled and the wildling raids became more frequent, it became depopulated. We know from the books that below Brandon's Gift is "the New Gift", which the Targaryens set aside for the Night's Watch. I believe it is similarly sparsely populated.

If the wildlings made themselves subject to the King's Peace (whether King in the North or the Iron Throne, who knows) then yes, the North would be much stronger for having all these new people inhabiting the North. The problem is, as stated, making them subject to said peace. The society in Game of Thrones is such that you need some form of tyrannical authority. No democratic golden age is coming, especially not out of the wildlings.

[TheHammer]

One thing to take note of, from the past episode Roose Bolton's description of the size of the North, being as large as the other 7 kingdoms combined - if it weren't already fairly obvious from the opening credits map view. This fact alone means that from a living space standpoint, it could easily take on the wildling host should a peaceful negotiation take place to allow them through (not that I expect one). And the North would be stronger for it. Obviously there might be concerns for food production and the economy, but given the sparse population I suspect both of those are vastly underdeveloped in the North.

It would? There are plenty of asshole wildlings that consider it their right to reave across the land. Sure, you might have a ton of peaceful people but there is the question of their hyper-individualistic culture and how they'd react to being asked to provide men in exchange for protection, land and food (without which they join the asshole reavers)

Obviously that would have to be part of the negotiation - no reaving and pillaging lol. I suspect a lot of the wildingling attitude towards the south has to do with the "us vs them" nature of things with the wall present. You could hear it in Ygritte's monologue early in the episode. As for how they would integrate being "hyper-individualistic" - They united under Mance, so clearly the concept is not foreign to them. I'm not saying it will be kittens and rainbows, but the idea of a relatively peaceful co-existence with potential for a mutually beneficial relationship certainly is there.

If you left them to their own via land grants, and culled the more "reavy" individuals then you'd have a lot of economic potential. You'd also have a large standing militia to call upon to defend the north from attacks either from beyond the wall, or from the south. Obviously it would take some time for them to culturally assimilate, but once they started trading with the 7 kingdoms such things would eventually happen. Hell, if the Nights Watch "relaxed" its rules regarding female relations they'd likely have plenty of recruits to help defend the wall against white walkers or any rogue groups still operating north of the wall.

[TheHammer]

One thing to take note of, from the past episode Roose Bolton's description of the size of the North, being as large as the other 7 kingdoms combined - if it weren't already fairly obvious from the opening credits map view. This fact alone means that from a living space standpoint, it could easily take on the wildling host should a peaceful negotiation take place to allow them through (not that I expect one). And the North would be stronger for it. Obviously there might be concerns for food production and the economy, but given the sparse population I suspect both of those are vastly underdeveloped in the North.

If you recall Season 3, you'll remember that Bran & Co travel through an area called "Brandon's Gift", which was set aside to the Night's Watch - presumably by the first Brandon Stark, for the "sustenance and support" of the Night's Watch - except as the Night's Watch numbers dwindled and the wildling raids became more frequent, it became depopulated. We know from the books that below Brandon's Gift is "the New Gift", which the Targaryens set aside for the Night's Watch. I believe it is similarly sparsely populated.

If the wildlings made themselves subject to the King's Peace (whether King in the North or the Iron Throne, who knows) then yes, the North would be much stronger for having all these new people inhabiting the North. The problem is, as stated, making them subject to said peace. The society in Game of Thrones is such that you need some form of tyrannical authority. No democratic golden age is coming, especially not out of the wildlings.

The Iron Throne, or King in the north would likely be in the position at this point to be more generous in terms than they might be in times of strength. Dorne shows the precedent for certain areas of the seven kingdoms holding special status. I suspect terms of peace granting them lands that are vastly unoccupied anyway would be preferable to fighting an army 100,000 strong and all of the devastating consequences that go along with it. I'd see Tywin making that deal. Hell I'd see Roose taking that deal as well with the idea that he'd be able at some point to use that numerical strength to solidify his position.

[Irbis]

Obviously that would have to be part of the negotiation - no reaving and pillaging lol. I suspect a lot of the wildingling attitude towards the south has to do with the "us vs them" nature of things with the wall present.

This is the thing I discussed with a friend some time ago. What the wall actually does? It doesn't seem to stop wild peoples, wights and ice zombies can simply walk around it when winter comes due to, you know, both ends stopping on the shores where the sea freezes in winter. It does seem to do nothing.

What if there were no wall? For one, I'd expect northern lords to take safety issues more seriously - not leaving the defence to an outside, weak group. Given the army Starks could mobilize, it isn't infeasible the North could actually conquer everything up to Lands of Always Winter, integrate wild peoples and strengthen the kingdoms. It's not like they had anything else to do with their forces in long times of peace, really.

They could have also attracted landless and hopeful noble sons from the south instead of human trash the Night Watch were - sure, lands in the north were not that valuable, but a castle with a few villages beats being penniless. I don't know, given the wall's "success" it seems to me it was actually a detriment, not a help. We know at least a few southern nobles were not really opposed to owning land here, so why not?

[Mr Bean]

This is the thing I discussed with a friend some time ago. What the wall actually does? It doesn't seem to stop wild peoples, wights and ice zombies can simply walk around it when winter comes due to, you know, both ends stopping on the shores where the sea freezes in winter. It does seem to do nothing.

We can't go into this without getting into book territory because the show has chopped out the history of the wall by at least 90%. In the show they leave it to "big wall got built, bad stuff over there we are over here. Without that 90% I can't get into the most popular crazy theory about how the wall came to be and why it's there.

[TheHammer]

This is the thing I discussed with a friend some time ago. What the wall actually does? It doesn't seem to stop wild peoples, wights and ice zombies can simply walk around it when winter comes due to, you know, both ends stopping on the shores where the sea freezes in winter. It does seem to do nothing.

We can't go into this without getting into book territory because the show has chopped out the history of the wall by at least 90%. In the show they leave it to "big wall got built, bad stuff over there we are over here. Without that 90% I can't get into the most popular crazy theory about how the wall came to be and why it's there.

Care to elaborate in a spoilerized section? I don't imagine the history of the wall is going to ruin my viewing experience, and anyone else of a likemind might be interested to know what you think.

[Mr Bean]

Care to elaborate in a spoilerized section? I don't imagine the history of the wall is going to ruin my viewing experience, and anyone else of a likemind might be interested to know what you think.

Here you go Spoiler

The wall is OLD, as in before the Targaryens, before the Andals during the time of the first men when a people called the Children of the Forest were running around still with the First Men. Here's the wiki summary
The Wall is held to be over eight thousand years old and was built by Bran the Builder following the War for the Dawn. According to legend, Westeros barely survived the invasion of the demonic ice-creatures known as the Others. Once they were turned back, humanity built the Wall, assisted by the Children of the Forest and giants, as a defensive bulwark against the Others' return. The Sworn Brotherhood of the Night's Watch was founded to man the Wall and defend it against all threats from the North, and it has done so ever since.

As for the theory (And while it is a crazy theory if it's true it's a fucking huge spoiler even if no spoilers are mentioned) Spoiler

The Theory comes from the fact that another famous historical figure "The Night King" who was the 13th Lord Commander of the Night Watch and they mention in the show married a woman cold as ice which is taken to mean he married an Other. The crazy theory is that the Wall was not a Man VS Other project but one built by the Others and Man as a border fence of sorts. After all who better than a race of Ice creatures to build a giant Ice wall? So the first 13 Lords Commander of the Night watch were White Walkers not Men and that during the reign of the 13th Lord Commander either someone broke the treaty or the White Walkers handed control of the wall back over to mankind and moved North. So the crazy theory states that the entire main conflict of Game of Thrones of the wildlings moving south to escape the White Walkers and the snow zombies is all about Ice (White Walkers) coming south because of Fire (The Dragons and the Targs). So much of the death yet to come is because mankind stopped following the Snow... Charter and the White Walkers are sending a multinational peacekeeping force of snow zombies and ice spiders to keep order.

[Ziggy Stardust]

With respect to White Walkers just going around the Wall (and ignoring the fan theory Mr Bean just elaborated on), although it hasn't been explicitly stated the Wall is at least somewhat magical in nature. Obviously it would take magic to construct it in the first place, and it isn't completely out of the question that the Wall has some sort of charm that keeps the White Walkers at bay, but obviously doesn't work with Wildings. There isn't anything in the show that really supports this, but I think it is something at least hinted at in the books (though I haven't read them; a friend of mine that has said something to this effect).

[Raw Shark]

A fucking giant archer!
Made my day...

Yeah, I loved that. Part of me wanted to say, "That's fucking ridiculous, it'd just tear right through him, not blow him backwards like a giant boxing glove," but I couldn't, because I was laughing so hard.

Also, my girlfriend cried her eyes out when Ygritte died. Best. Episode. Ever.

[Iroscato]

A fucking giant archer!
Made my day...

Best. Episode. Ever.

Is that because it made your girlfriend cry?
It took me by surprise that they focused solely on Jon and the Wall this episode, but man am I glad they did. Such a great siege/battle with plenty of crazy imagery (any show with giants riding mammoths shooting arrows the size of telephone poles is A-OK with me). Tormund was a fucking lunatic and frankly a delight to watch.
Brilliantly shot as well, nice sweeping shots of the chaos unfolding. The only downside is we have one more episode and then the best part of a year to wait. I should probably start reading the books...

[TheHammer]

A fucking giant archer!
Made my day...

Best. Episode. Ever.

Is that because it made your girlfriend cry?
It took me by surprise that they focused solely on Jon and the Wall this episode, but man am I glad they did. Such a great siege/battle with plenty of crazy imagery (any show with giants riding mammoths shooting arrows the size of telephone poles is A-OK with me). Tormund was a fucking lunatic and frankly a delight to watch.
Brilliantly shot as well, nice sweeping shots of the chaos unfolding. The only downside is we have one more episode and then the best part of a year to wait. I should probably start reading the books...

On the brightside, it is supposed to be a super-sized episode at 66 minutes, and the show runners claim it is their "best finale ever". Granted, most of the finales have been somewhat anti-climactic and more setup for the following season, but that still bodes well.

[LaCroix]

Video here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJXtFpeKmRQ

Looking at videos, pictures and consulting my books on bow-making, I've come to these conclusions.

The giants stormig the wall seem to be even bigger as the one Jon saw in the camp, about 3 times the size of a man, 5.5 to 6m.

The bow was 3.5 to 4m long, and compared to other things nearby, it seems to have about 4 to 5 inches wide (It's almost as wide as a human's head, accordin to the video). The wrapping and recurves seems to indicate it's a composite of horn and sinew - a wooden bow would be worse if wrapped. (probably mammoth, if we keep the giant's theme...) The fact the wildlings use these bow type as well, and that it was quite usual makes me quite confident of this.

The Wildling archer used a composite bow, and his arrow reached up to about 600feet (just shy of the 700 feet the wall is), or about 200m - indicating a good average 80-90 lbs draw weight of a strong hunting/standard war bow. Draw weights like this are more than adequate for war when using composite bows, allowing for about 400+ meters range with about 70-80m/s speed. (I've lately had the pleasure to shoot one of 75lbs draw weight, and that thing sent the arrows 330 to 350m downrange. Rule of thumb: you can shoot about half as high up as you can shoot them far at optimum angle.)

The giant's bow was about 4 times as wide as the wildling's - means as a low end, it's about 4 times as strong (the arrow was the size of a spear - and since the arrow and draw lenght are increased as well, there is no reduced efficiency due to longer limbs): ~360lbs -NO WAY!

High end, we must assume that it's also 4 times as thick, which would mean that it's 64 times stronger (doubling the thickness means an 8-fold increase in draw weight), and then times four for the width increase: 23000 lbs draw weight. 10.5 metric tons. This claim seems outrageous, but remember that one of these guys lifted that gate up over his head - the gate is about 8x8m in size, and 9 inches thick which means about 8-9 metric tons in wood alone, ignoring the wrought iron reinforcements, resistance of the gate mechanism, and stuff (probably frozen shut).

Let's check against the visuals - if we only went by double thickness, this would give it a total of (8x4) 32 times the wildling's bow's strenght- about 2900 pounds draw weight. People used crossbows of such draw weights, and they didn't do anything like that, so we must be somewhere much closer to high end.

The arrow hit the man at 700feet height in (less than, it seems) a second, and took him for a 20 m flight before it ran out of energy and they dropped. That means a velocity of at least 700 fps(or km/h, they are almost identical).

World records are about 600fps for 150lbs bows, so an arrow certainly can get that fast, it's just a question of the weight of that damn thing.
I'm going with 2kg for the ~6 foot/1.5 inches diam. shaft with that huge stone tip, and 210m/s - 44000 joules, enough to send a 100 kg (strong and armored) man flying at 30m/s after getting stuck in said armor. The man seemed to fly much slower, but there whould be a lot of energy lost in such an event, so I guess it's probably a good ballpark value.

Given that you need a 150lbs bow to send an 30gram arrow that fast, we need at least 10000 lbs draw weigth if we assume a linear correllation. (which would be another low- end value).

Conclusio: That giant archer pulled a frickin catapult-sized bow with a draw weight between 10000 and 23000 lbs.

[LaCroix]

Ghetto Edit: The gate is 6x6 (about as high&wide as the giant, who is more than 3 times the size of the people around him) - I used the right values in my math, but mistyped in the text...

[Elfdart]

Best. Episode. Ever.

Is that because it made your girlfriend cry?
It took me by surprise that they focused solely on Jon and the Wall this episode, but man am I glad they did. Such a great siege/battle with plenty of crazy imagery (any show with giants riding mammoths shooting arrows the size of telephone poles is A-OK with me). Tormund was a fucking lunatic and frankly a delight to watch.
Brilliantly shot as well, nice sweeping shots of the chaos unfolding. The only downside is we have one more episode and then the best part of a year to wait. I should probably start reading the books...

My girlfriend was pissed, but she's been that way all season because there's no sign of Gendry. She does like New Fabio, though -and Sam too now that he's shown more backbone for the first time since killing the White Walker. Oh, and for planting one on Gilly.

She also got steamed because Dr Pepper shot out of my nose when the bald cannibal taunted Ygritte about her "ginger minge", which provoked similar reactions from my SO as Ygritte when I started laughing. We both guessed Ygritte or Jon (or both) was going to die, with the smart money being on Ygritte. Like Robb and Talisa, Jon and Ygritte were just way too cute a couple to be allowed to live -one or both would have to die since George Martin, like the retard mentioned in last week's episode, squashes his characters like beetles. Which is why the corny, cliched part where Jon cradles his dying ex-girlfriend as the battle rages around them, had me thinking "Oh shit! Jon's going to get an axe in the back of the head!" This is Game of Thrones, so it's a real possibility.

The siege was the best one I've seen since Zulu. I was on the edge of my seat -not only because of the attack of the Wildlings, but because of the ex-goldcloak. Why? Because he ran to hide in the same root cellar Gilly and Baby Sam were hiding in. This is the same scumbag who, along with the other royal guards, ran around King's Landing butchering infants in front of their parents (one of two reasons Tyrion kicked him to the curb Wall in the first place), right? I was expecting Sam to open the door after the battle to find Gilly and Baby Sam stabbed to death. This is Game of Thrones, so it's a real possibility.

Too bad Grenn and the others didn't get spears to stab the giant through the portcullis. Jon Snow's posse just got cut in half. I'm tempted to watch the episode again just to count how many Crows were killed or seriously wounded because it looked like at least half of them were killed or mangled on screen.

Anyway, we had Mammoth-fu, giant-fu, giant with longbow launching Crow into orbit-fu (When I saw him take aim I said aloud "Somebody's truly... SPLAT!... fucked!"), dire wolf-fu (why the fuck is he locked up in the first place? wouldn't a whole pack of canines be useful for the Watch?) and best of all, Aleister Thorne-fu. Usually, the designated asshole turns out to be utterly useless or worse when the shit hits the fan, but Thorne seemed a real leader and a skilled fighter, going toe-to-toe with Captain Redbeard Rum until he took a shot to his gut. My SO and I said almost in unison: "He's a dick, but I hope he's OK."

This shot alone made this episode the best thing I've seen on a screen all year long:

[Scrib]

One thing to take note of, from the past episode Roose Bolton's description of the size of the North, being as large as the other 7 kingdoms combined - if it weren't already fairly obvious from the opening credits map view. This fact alone means that from a living space standpoint, it could easily take on the wildling host should a peaceful negotiation take place to allow them through (not that I expect one). And the North would be stronger for it. Obviously there might be concerns for food production and the economy, but given the sparse population I suspect both of those are vastly underdeveloped in the North.

It would? There are plenty of asshole wildlings that consider it their right to reave across the land. Sure, you might have a ton of peaceful people but there is the question of their hyper-individualistic culture and how they'd react to being asked to provide men in exchange for protection, land and food (without which they join the asshole reavers)

Obviously that would have to be part of the negotiation - no reaving and pillaging lol. I suspect a lot of the wildingling attitude towards the south has to do with the "us vs them" nature of things with the wall present. You could hear it in Ygritte's monologue early in the episode. As for how they would integrate being "hyper-individualistic" - They united under Mance, so clearly the concept is not foreign to them. I'm not saying it will be kittens and rainbows, but the idea of a relatively peaceful co-existence with potential for a mutually beneficial relationship certainly is there.

If you left them to their own via land grants, and culled the more "reavy" individuals then you'd have a lot of economic potential. You'd also have a large standing militia to call upon to defend the north from attacks either from beyond the wall, or from the south. Obviously it would take some time for them to culturally assimilate, but once they started trading with the 7 kingdoms such things would eventually happen. Hell, if the Nights Watch "relaxed" its rules regarding female relations they'd likely have plenty of recruits to help defend the wall against white walkers or any rogue groups still operating north of the wall.

You speak as if this is a straight-forward thing. The wildlings are inherently opposed to the only sources of legitimate authority in Westeros. Inherently. Now, sure, you can beat some down but the sheer number is likely to drown the North. It's not like you can use passports and immigration to cull the bad guys.

And, this is skirting the thread policy, but they have been reavers since time immemorial. You think that the northern vassals are going to love having the people who steal their shit and rape their women as brothers?

As for uniting under Mance: that was because of a danger and Mance's charisma. And once Mance dies or they cross the wall they move on. The fact that it took Mance and a resurgence of White Walkers to unite them tells you something: they obviously weren't very amenable to cross-continental kingdoms before.

Flooding the North with 300,000 starving people with a significant portion of them fighters and killers and hoping that you can feed or talk them down during winter after a devastating war where most of your men were slaughtered down south is insane.

[Esquire]

Yes and no. Sure, the Wildling army is ridiculously huge, but (as we saw in the last episode) it's undisciplined and very unwieldy. Mance's bit can't have taken more than a couple hundred casualties plus the giants before giving up; they don't have a really solid esprit de corps. They may actually be more vulnerable in an army than as small bands of raiders, because somebody - the Boltons, say, or maybe those mercenaries Stannis just hired - could hit them with organized, battle-hardened heavy infantry and smash them against the Wall, even if they manage to overrun the Night's Watch first.

After the largest Wildling army ever is conclusively defeated, I think it'd be easier to get the survivors to bend the knee. Particularly if you make the charismatic ones lords, or set up some kind of autonomous arrangement so they can keep their customs.