Game of Thrones Season 4 Discussion (TV Spoilers Only)

[Irbis]

House Umber is in the north of the North (heh), so no, it wasn't just the southern part.

Technically, yes, but that was still less than half of what Eddard had. The fact that war in the North drags on and on as lords mobilize more and more men proves it, and doesn't even show signs of exhaustion yet.

Moat Cailin is only impregnable when attacking from the south. Its vulnerable from the north to any decent sized force, that's why the Ironborn could take it.

Ironborn actually have something resembling modern arms and leadership, though.

Based on what we saw as far as wildling combat effectiveness, the idea that the Starks could stop a wildling army this large that was already south of the wall is fucking laughable. They couldn't field the numbers, and I have no idea how they would counter the giants aside from sheer attrition. One Giant alone killed 5 of the nights watch with his bare hands after having already taken several arrows and tearing through a metal gate.

Nope, it's the wildlings who have no counter to anyone in metal armor besides attrition, not to mention heavy cavalry. Even if most levies are just peasants, they are peasants with massive force multiplier, NCO corps and experienced officers.

Giants? I bet dozen poisoned crossbows or armored knight with decent long lance can bring down one. Armies in real life dealt with elephants, it can't be much harder.

[streetad]

If the wildlings breach the wall, a not insignificant amount of them will wander off and do their own thing. The first time a sizeable Stark army with heavy cavalry engages Mance's core, they will potentially shatter them into dozens of independent raiding groups; they will have a hell of a time tidying everything up, and the North would be severely ravaged, but I don't see them achieving any sort of organised conquest.

[Elfdart]

If the wildlings breach the wall, a not insignificant amount of them will wander off and do their own thing. The first time a sizeable Stark army with heavy cavalry engages Mance's core, they will potentially shatter them into dozens of independent raiding groups; they will have a hell of a time tidying everything up, and the North would be severely ravaged, but I don't see them achieving any sort of organised conquest.

Then the Wildlings have nothing to fear since the Stark forces are now reduced to three children, a teenage girl, four retainers, plus pets. Unless Stannis either sent his army north while he haggled with the Iron Bank, or his ships have steam engines, there's little chance they'll be a factor either. So who does that leave? The Greyjoys and Boltons?

That numerical advantage becomes pretty meaningless south of the war considering the Wildlings complete lack of logistics and minimal discipline. Even peasant conscript infantry is playing at a much higher level than they are just due to advantages in organization and the experience they're leadership would have in handling large bodies of men.

That 100,000 men is a migration rather than an army and if they stay together in hostile lands they'd starve.

Now, its quite the effort to mop them up, and they'd do a lot of damage as the more martially inclined of them disperse into bands of marrauders, but there isn't a serious likelihood of them conquering the North.

The threat they represent is the prospect of the North getting a nasty ravage as they rape, loot at murder their way through the countryside before getting stopped. Its not the chance of them actually conquering the place.

Maybe not, but it's one more catastrophe the North doesn't need. Thing is, if they do manage to knock over a town or fortress or defensible area and settle in as winter arrives, then they're here to stay either as conquerors or squatters or both. It doesn't look like anyone is in a position to kick them out anytime soon.

[Elfdart]

I watched the episode again last night and counted the casualties. There were at least 41 Crows definitely killed in action, barring a fully staffed and equipped modern emergency room being available to the Night Watch that has somehow gone unmentioned. On top of that, there were at least 12 more seriously wounded like Aleister Thorne, who more than likely won't be able to fight anytime soon. These are just the casualties that happened on camera. Oh, and that was all the flaming oil they had.

Predictions:

Jon will get waylaid on the way to meet Mance Raider, maybe meeting up with Bran & Co on their journey to find the White Walkers' Fortress of Solitude and plant obsidian arrows in them once and for all.

The Hound will die. Why else would they mention his bite wound?

Robert Dudley Jorah Mormont will uncover a plot against Danerys, save her, and get back in her good graces. Not Fabio will piss off the queen, but she'll be more tolerant of his antics because well, it's Not Fabio

Jamie or Bronn will break Tyrion out of jail. Tyrion will use his knowledge of the tunnels beneath the city to escape. He'll figure out that Shae was Tywin's agent the whole time, as I predicted over a year ago, and plot his revenge.

Cersei's visitation rights to her daughter are now canceled, since the guy who made the offer died like a fucking dumbass -getting his skull crushed by her handpicked champion. She will try to get Jamie to fetch their daughter home anyway.

Since Robb's uncle is probably still alive, he will raise a force (maybe Dendarion's men) to try to hit back at Bolton and the Frey family.

Osha will hide the youngest Stark kid among friendly Wildlings.

Stannis' men will arrive in time to save the last few defenders of the Wall. I don't know how, but they will.

After hearing about Theon at Moat Cailin, Yara will lead her commandos on another mission. This time they will try to kill Theon (which they should have done already). Balon is also killed because he abandoned his last son, and because of the Red Witch's penis leech spell. Yara will now rule the Iron Islands.

Oberin's mistress will be killed because Indira Varma dies in just about everything she's in, except a soft porn flick call Kama Sutra: A Tale of Love.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Jon will get waylaid on the way to meet Mance Raider, maybe meeting up with Bran & Co on their journey to find the White Walkers' Fortress of Solitude and plant obsidian arrows in them once and for all.

I don't really see how that could happen, unless Mance's command center is inexplicably located north of Caster's Keep, which is several days march away from the wall. Or unless Bran gets lost and heads back south for some reason. Last we saw Bran, he was heading further into the wilderness past Craster's Keep.

[Vympel]

Technically, yes, but that was still less than half of what Eddard had. The fact that war in the North drags on and on as lords mobilize more and more men proves it, and doesn't even show signs of exhaustion yet.

I'm not sure what you mean? Less than half of what Eddard had where, when? Are you talking about Robert's Rebellion? We don't know the Northern strength during that war. From the books, we know that that the rebel army on the Trident - their total forces - was 35,000 strong after roughly a year of war. That's the strength of the North, the Stormlands, the Vale and some of the Riverlands (ref: the Late Lord Frey, staunch Targaryen loyalist houses like House Darry).

Anyway, Spoiler

We know from the books that there's some untapped manpower in the North - Robb could've collected more men if he had waited, but he didn't have time. But it wouldn't have jumped his strength up to say 40,000 men.

Ironborn actually have something resembling modern arms and leadership, though.

I'd still bet on their biggest obstacle being a garrissoned Winterfell. Its far stronger. They'd have to bypass it.

[Pelranius]

Cersei sounds very bitter towards Tywin in the trailer for "The Children". Wonder what's gotten up her colon this time?

[Sinewmire]

Incidentally, "Let's Kill Some Crows", the soundtrack to the asault on Castle Black, is the first thing I've heard on this season's soundtrack that's really impressed me. It's mostly been rehashes of existing music for seasons 3 and 4 (Sigur Ros' version of Reyns of Castamere being another exception), but I actually listen to "Let's Kill Some Crows" on youtube because I really like it.

[Iroscato]

BIG GODDAMN SPOILERS FOR THE FINALE TO FOLLOW.










Wow. What a send-off to the season. They really managed to pack a lot in, and though it felt a bit disjointed it was still a great finale. I had a vague awareness that Tyrion was going to kill both Shae and Tywin thanks to some overenthusiastic reading of the wiki, and I was wondering how they would play it, especially with Shae. But they made it pretty believable, a combination of Shae trying to murder the shit out of Tyrion and it being an unintended choke-hold that Tyrion decided not to relinquish - a good mix of deliberate and accidental.
Tywin...God, what a dick, right to the end. I guess when you've had every man and woman in Westoros bow and scrape to you for most of your life you tend to get a bit overconfident, but even so - your obviously disturbed son whom you've abused all his life has a fucking crossbow pointed at your heart, and you still practically dare him to pull the trigger with every insufferable sentence.
Brienne and The Hound's fight went from awesome, to brutally hilarious once they realised neither were knights. Brienne confirms herself as a BAMF as if any more proof were needed.
The Hound has always been a fairly sympathetic character to me, at least in the TV series. Maybe he's written differently in the books. Yes, he is a ruthless killer who loves his job, but there was always a tortured soul underneath, maybe capable of something better. Look what he had for a brother, after all...his chances were never good.
EDIT: I loved Varys' change of heart at the end, almost walking back to King's Landing, but realising there's nothing left for him there anymore. Another great little moment.
Also, Arya leaving The Hound to die was a brilliant scene, an emotional rollercoaster in itself.
And I always knew Tywin would die on The Throne. On that note...
Brilliant finish to a great season, now the 42 weeks can truly begin...

[Meest]

I think it was too emotionally draining, by the time it got to Tywin and Tyrion I was not as tense or receptive to the emotion of the moment. Think they needed even more of a cooldown period before that scene, though can see why they sent Arya on her way with a hopeful feeling to end it. This if from a perspective of knowing most of it from the book, the pace and emotion in the episode was great, I think it peaked at Brienne and the Hound, she goes all primal on him and it translated well to the viewer I thought.

[Irbis]

Want to be killed by Martin or get his old hat? I was surprised how quickly these slots filled

[LaCroix]

I loved how Varys got Tyrion on that boat, and then heard the bells tolling. Recognizing what had happened, he turns and boards the same boat, sitting next to the crate. Made shivers run down my spine.

[Iroscato]

I loved how Varys got Tyrion on that boat, and then heard the bells tolling. Recognizing what had happened, he turns and boards the same boat, sitting next to the crate. Made shivers run down my spine.

It did put a nice bow on things didn't it? The finale left all the main players in interesting places, though I have a feeling the focus will be shifting away from King's Landing as Tyrion and Arya will be heading further away.

[Vympel]

I loved this episode, and don't really get any of the criticisms I've seen.

1. The whole Tyrion/Shae/Tywin thing was handled perfectly. Its been cut from the show - and good riddance - so I'll mention it: the whole shit about Tysha not actually being a whore and having that as the impetus for Tyrion killing Tywin was poor writing in the book and it'd be even more ill-advised here. Its not something you fix with a "previously on". The whole thing was rightly dropped, and good riddance to it. We don't need to listen to "where do whores go" for the next 2 seasons.

2. Brienne vs the Hound was wonderful. An excellent book deviation. Possibly one of my favorite run-ins.

3. I've seen consistent complaints about the skeleton CGI. I have no idea WTF these people are talking about. I wasn't taken out of the scene once.

4. Stannis' charge and its scale was appropriate and awesome - Stannis' full badass theme when he rides up was the icing on the cake.

5. Was kind of disappointed we didn't see more Sansa / Littlefinger.

6. Varys going with Tyrion was an interesting change - I was convinced he was going to walk back to the Red Keep, but then he sat next to Tyrion on the ship Its like they were deliberately throwing the change in book purists face

[TheHammer]

I loved this episode, and don't really get any of the criticisms I've seen.

1. The whole Tyrion/Shae/Tywin thing was handled perfectly. Its been cut from the show - and good riddance - so I'll mention it: the whole shit about Tysha not actually being a whore and having that as the impetus for Tyrion killing Tywin was poor writing in the book and it'd be even more ill-advised here. Its not something you fix with a "previously on". The whole thing was rightly dropped, and good riddance to it. We don't need to listen to "where do whores go" for the next 2 seasons.

I agree with you there. Its not as if Tyrion needs any more motivation to kill Tywin.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I didn't really like Arya leaving the Hound to die. I just didn't really think it made any sense. I mean, what was the point of them having their little heart-to-heart and Arya treating his bite wound two episodes ago only for her to treat him so coldly there? She's been talking for an entire season about how she is going to kill him, then she doesn't? I just don't really understand why they made that decision, and I think it was just sort of an unnecessary break from the character arc.

Besides that, I thought it was a great episode. Out of curiosity, where did Stannis get through the Wall? Presumably at one of the other manned forts and figured out/heard from a raven that he should get to Castle Black post-haste?

[TheHammer]

I didn't really like Arya leaving the Hound to die. I just didn't really think it made any sense. I mean, what was the point of them having their little heart-to-heart and Arya treating his bite wound two episodes ago only for her to treat him so coldly there? She's been talking for an entire season about how she is going to kill him, then she doesn't? I just don't really understand why they made that decision, and I think it was just sort of an unnecessary break from the character arc.

A lot of Arya's actions seem arbitrary. But without some sort of inner monologue its hard to know what she was thinking. Part of her may have felt like the Hound deserved to die, and yet maybe she couldn't bring herself to do it - leaving the Hound to his fate. Or perhaps she was showing him how cold he had taught her to be. I don't think its much of a break given the circumstances.

Besides that, I thought it was a great episode. Out of curiosity, where did Stannis get through the Wall? Presumably at one of the other manned forts and figured out/heard from a raven that he should get to Castle Black post-haste?

For all we know he may have sailed around the wall. We know he had the ships to do so. Or he could have gotten through one of the other manned forts as you stated.

[Crown]

I didn't really like Arya leaving the Hound to die. I just didn't really think it made any sense. I mean, what was the point of them having their little heart-to-heart and Arya treating his bite wound two episodes ago only for her to treat him so coldly there? She's been talking for an entire season about how she is going to kill him, then she doesn't? I just don't really understand why they made that decision, and I think it was just sort of an unnecessary break from the character arc.

It's funny how people respond so differently to the same stimuli, because I fucking loved and I mean loved that scene! Like hollering and whooping loved that scene.

Felt it was another example of how cold Arya is.

3. I've seen consistent complaints about the skeleton CGI. I have no idea WTF these people are talking about. I wasn't taken out of the scene once.

Agreed for the others, disagree with the above, they looked like stop motion animation, and the fireballs were a bit shitty as well.

6. Varys going with Tyrion was an interesting change - I was convinced he was going to walk back to the Red Keep, but then he sat next to Tyrion on the ship Its like they were deliberately throwing the change in book purists face

I loved the way they played that. Varys was like yeah I'll be back in the keep before anyone kn--- Oh Shit. Gets on ship, lol.

[Ziggy Stardust]

A lot of Arya's actions seem arbitrary. But without some sort of inner monologue its hard to know what she was thinking. Part of her may have felt like the Hound deserved to die, and yet maybe she couldn't bring herself to do it - leaving the Hound to his fate. Or perhaps she was showing him how cold he had taught her to be. I don't think its much of a break given the circumstances.

Yeah, there are ways to interpret it, I just feel like the show didn't make it very clear. I also just think it's an odd choice from a story-telling perspective, regardless of how you interpret it "in-universe." I mean, what was the point of showing Arya and the Hound begin to bond in a weird way only for her to leave him like that? Just when you take into account the scene of the Hound mercy-killing the old man, the scene where the Hound opens up to her and she treats his wound, and whatnot, it just seems like a fitting way to have ended that story arc. It's not like it would have affected whether Arya goes to Braavos or not. I am curious if any book-readers would comment on this? Does that scene transpire in the books the way we saw it happen, and if so was there an inner-monologue from Arya that might shed light on this?

For all we know he may have sailed around the wall. We know he had the ships to do so. Or he could have gotten through one of the other manned forts as you stated.

I was just wondering if in the books they make explicit mention of Stannis' route to the Wall. There are several explanations, I am just curious as to which is "canon."

EDIT:

It's funny how people respond so differently to the same stimuli, because I fucking loved and I mean loved that scene! Like hollering and whooping loved that scene.

Felt it was another example of how cold Arya is.

Don't get me wrong, I thought it was a very well done scene. It was executed perfectly and was a lot of fuck to watch. I just don't really get why they made the choice to have Arya not kill him there at the end. I felt like we don't need another lesson in how cold Arya is, as we have already had several scenes like that this season. It's not so much that I didn't like the scene, it was great, as more that I am puzzled as to exactly why Arya made that decision.

[TheHammer]

A lot of Arya's actions seem arbitrary. But without some sort of inner monologue its hard to know what she was thinking. Part of her may have felt like the Hound deserved to die, and yet maybe she couldn't bring herself to do it - leaving the Hound to his fate. Or perhaps she was showing him how cold he had taught her to be. I don't think its much of a break given the circumstances.

Yeah, there are ways to interpret it, I just feel like the show didn't make it very clear. I also just think it's an odd choice from a story-telling perspective, regardless of how you interpret it "in-universe." I mean, what was the point of showing Arya and the Hound begin to bond in a weird way only for her to leave him like that? Just when you take into account the scene of the Hound mercy-killing the old man, the scene where the Hound opens up to her and she treats his wound, and whatnot, it just seems like a fitting way to have ended that story arc. It's not like it would have affected whether Arya goes to Braavos or not. I am curious if any book-readers would comment on this? Does that scene transpire in the books the way we saw it happen, and if so was there an inner-monologue from Arya that might shed light on this?

By not killing him, it leaves the door open that he somehow survives to re-appear later. That may seem remote, but remember we've seen men brought back from death.

[Crown]

Does that scene transpire in the books the way we saw it happen, and if so was there an inner-monologue from Arya that might shed light on this?

The spoiler below discusses only the quote above in the scene with Arya and the Hound. I only put it in as it is no more of a reveal than the scene shown in the show, however out of respect I've used spoiler tags.
Spoiler

It plays out slightly differently in the books, but in essence he begs her for the gift of mercy much like in the show, and she denies it to him and tells him he doesn't deserve it.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Fair enough. Also, from reading the GoT wiki, it seems that the whole Hound/Arya storyline leading UP to this scene was very different in the books. Since this isn't the thread for it I won't go into detail, but I actually think that Arya denying the Hound makes more sense with the way the books develop this plotline versus the extended attention the show gave it.

[Crown]

Fair enough. Also, from reading the GoT wiki, it seems that the whole Hound/Arya storyline leading UP to this scene was very different in the books. Since this isn't the thread for it I won't go into detail, but I actually think that Arya denying the Hound makes more sense with the way the books develop this plotline versus the extended attention the show gave it.

You're sort of assuming that Arya is warming to the Hound, she isn't. He is warming to her which is hilarious, but Arya is broken on the inside on some levels. That look she gave him while he was begging was just empty. The actress sold it so well.

[Ralin]

I like how they set it up so that the Hound was in the right.

[Sinewmire]

Just when you take into account the scene of the Hound mercy-killing the old man, the scene where the Hound opens up to her and she treats his wound, and whatnot.

"Dead men don't need silver."

She watched and learned.
Her leaving him showed that he learned the lessons he taught her. Pity he was such a good teacher, really.