Game of Thrones Season 4 Discussion (TV Spoilers Only)

[JLTucker]

I don't know if anyone recalls, but I took a gigantic poop on the second and third seasons back when they aired. However, after marathonning it last week to prepare for the premiere, my opinions changed.

The character work excels in this show, so much so that I am coming around to Jamie. Tyrion was the only Lannister I actually cared about, but what the writers did with Jamie in season three brought me over to his side. Sure, he nearly killed a kid to cover up his relationship with Cersei, but losing his hand created a vulnerable side. Knowing about his tenure as the King's Guard during the reign of the Mad King really put things in perspective. Now, after "Two Swords," it has become clear to me that Tywin cares not about his family, but instead his legacy. I understand why he thinks Jamie is now nearly worthless, but that just puts me even more in Jamie's corner. Couple that with Cersei's lack of gratitude for Jamie, the guy is now quite sympathetic.

Now, Arya is still my favorite character because she's the antithesis of the typical Hollywood "strong female character" trope that we see in stuff like Resident Evfil, Firefly, The Avengers, etc. She's not just a warrior. She has feelings. She is smart. She opts to not com,p;ly with the gender roles in her society. To see her get revenge for one of her friends instead of her family members is a nice end to a fantastic episode.

It's too bad Shae looks like she's going to be leaving us soon. I hope not.

[JME2]

Yeah, Jamie's development over Season 3 mirrors what happens across Books 1-3.

In Book 1, he comes across as a typical Lannister asshole. Come the end of Book 3 (and what we've seen thus far)...the Kingslayer ends up quite a different, more sympathetic character.

[Scrib]

I'm amused by what makes Jaime sympathetic. It's not a greater understanding of his actions or anything just enough bad shit happened to him that my initial dislike of him has eroded! If he pushed a kid out of a window but kept his sword arm he would be such a prick!

I've often wondered where this concept of redemption for Jaime being a trial with a bunch of random bad shit happening to him followed by a bit of reassessment (but don't forget the "punishment") came from. Religion?

[JLTucker]

It depends on his actions.So far, he has saved Breanne from a brutal death. If he continues to do good deeds, I'll forgive him for the attempts on Bran's life. It's like Snape in a way. He was a bully, had a hand in the Potters' deaths, but eventually died for the greater good. That trumps every bad thing he ever did.

[Scrib]

It depends on his actions.So far, he has saved Breanne from a brutal death. If he continues to do good deeds, I'll forgive him for the attempts on Bran's life. It's like Snape in a way. He was a bully, had a hand in the Potters' deaths, but eventually died for the greater good. That trumps every bad thing he ever did.

Fair enough.It makes sense I just... I don't know what it is and I can't put my finger on it but there's always been something really amusing about how the fans (I have more experience with book fans) make decisions on this.

[LaCroix]

Well, this, and the fact that he saved a couple of thousand smallfolk from a painful death by stopping the Alchemist when the Mad King gave the order. After that, he could push another boy out of a window, and still be a positive, in my book...

[Ralin]

And even if it wasn't justified Jaime can legit say that trying to kill Bran was self-defense for him and Cersei.

Personally I always thought slaughtering Ned's men to make a point was a lot more damning.

[Scrib]

And even if it wasn't justified Jaime can legit say that trying to kill Bran was self-defense for him and Cersei.

Personally I always thought slaughtering Ned's men to make a point was a lot more damning.

The problem with self-defense is that this isn't Florida. Jaime created the situation that lead to him being in mortal danger. Of course, you could argue that he took a reasonable risk, meeting somewhere secluded but I dunno.

Well, this, and the fact that he saved a couple of thousand smallfolk from a painful death by stopping the Alchemist when the Mad King gave the order. After that, he could push another boy out of a window, and still be a positive, in my book...

Right. So he was never an asshole. But I wonder how many people would have forgiven him with the same set of facts if he just walked back into his life and his family's arms without all this convenient conflict and just went back to doing things, except slightly nicer completely unscathed with his hand good.

Of course, one could easily say that a good deed does not wash out the bad about your post.Is morality a bank account you fill up so you can make withdrawals? Or are we just talking about good will here?

[LaCroix]

Oh he still is an asshole, grade A, in my opinion. Still, for me, that part of his story was the point where he became a likeable asshole...

[LaCroix]

And to expand on this - In Westeros, nobody seems to have problems with a 12 year old girl being wed to an adult, or children wed to each other as soon as the girl "flowers". Nobody bats an eye about children like "Arry" and his friends joining the Nightwatch, and most of the armies we never really see much of probably consists of boys of pretty much the same age as the "Nightwatch kids". All of the Lords we follow are well known fighters, and have slain "countless" enemies, each, so they probably have killed quite a lot of kids. The Mad King had people burned alive at a whim, and King Baratheon had wanted the Tagarien kids killed. The Lannisters had eradicated the whole Rayne family, to the last man, woman and child, as far as the Bloodline could be followed, and no one really scorns them for it. The Starks have good relations to a family that was until lately widely know to skin people alive, sometimes for fun, and still continue to do this as a badly kept secret.

To me, pushing a boy out of a window to prevent damage to his family isn't really that high on the list when I consider what else is going on on a normal day in Westeros...

[TheHammer]

Jamie is sympathetic because he's not some sort of cartoon villain. He's done plenty of bad things, but he also has a code, and some sense of honor. Pushing Bran out the window was probably less about true self interest and more about protecting Cersei (and by extension their children). After all, he jumped into a pit with a bear to save Brienne. He's a multi-layered character, rather than the stereotypical caricatures you tend to run across in other works. The same could be said of many Characters in the show, there are very few with "clean hands", nor are there many who are evil for its own sake.

[JME2]

Jamie is sympathetic because he's not some sort of cartoon villain. He's done plenty of bad things, but he also has a code, and some sense of honor. Pushing Bran out the window was probably less about true self interest and more about protecting Cersei (and by extension their children). After all, he jumped into a pit with a bear to save Brienne. He's a multi-layered character, rather than the stereotypical caricatures you tend to run across in other works. The same could be said of many Characters in the show, there are very few with "clean hands", nor are there many who are evil for its own sake.

Right.

I wasn't looking forward to the Jamie sections of ASOS, but I changed my mind once we got insight into his thought process and...
Spoiler

...why he really killed Aerys.

[Sinewmire]

I've always liked Jaime.

Sure he's smarmy, but there's a lot ot be said for someone who recognises that the only thing standing between him and doing the right thing is some bullshit honour code.

Stand by and watch shit like the Mad King mudering Lyanna Stark and do nothing because of an oath? Fuck that!

Cuckolding Robert was mean, sure, but it's not like Robert wasn't sleeping with anything that would take silver, and yes, incest is bad genetically, but he and Cersei are consenting adults.

Pushing Bran out of a window? Yeah, it's a bad thing to do, but if the lovers were found out, it would be death for both of them. It's his fault, but I'm sure we've all done stupid things for love before. Would you kill some child you barely knew if it was that or you and your lover's execution? I'm not saying I would, but it's a hell of a dilemma, and you only have moments to act.

Jaime's reckless, but he's not a bad person at all, in my opinion.
"Jaime Lannister. The Kingslayer."
"And what a King he was..."

[Darth Yan]

yeah that also put things into perspective.

One thing I am a little confused about is Tywin and Arya. I loved the scenes, not just because they were well acted. I really got the sense that Tywin demonstrated a somewhat more human side during his interactions, even to the point where he actually seemed to care about her. Than he up and left her at Harrenhall. But I just don't think Tywin can connect with his children. At all. That's probably why he doesn't care. He can't connect so why try?

[Napoleon the Clown]

My impression from the scene between Arya and Tywin is that the latter is perfectly capable of recognizing someone's potential for usefulness. He didn't care about Arya so much as he cared about what he could get out of her. He's even like that with his children, though less so with Tyrion, considering he feels Tyrion killed the only person he's actually ever cared about.

Tywin doesn't give a fuck about people, he gives a fuck about how useful someone is. If you're competent, he'll reward you and put you to better use. If you're a useless idiot, he doesn't have time for you up until your idiocy causes him problems, at which point he'll make sure you no longer cause him problems. Seeing you dead or simply sending you to a place you'll probably spend the rest of your days. Rebel and he crushes you under his heel. Robb was an idiot that rebelled, so naturally Tywin saw to it that he died.

TV Tywin is still an utter bastard, but he comes across as being a very pragmatic bastard. He isn't usually petty (with Tyrion being a massive exception) though he is exceedingly egotistical. He strikes me as the type who basically had all legitimate kindness beaten out of him by life. And that has resulted in his family being hilariously fucked up. The best adjusted of his children is an alcoholic that is very prone to sarcastic remarks to basically everyone around him. Jaime was slightly better adjusted socially, but he also did quite a lot of really shitty things. It took losing pretty much everything he valued being taken away before he started to try and be an actually good person. And Cersei... We'll see if she ever actually gets humbled. Though I can't blame her for all of her issues. Getting married off to someone like Robert can't have been pleasant, and having Tywin as a father certainly didn't help anything.

I've heard comments on how so many of the problems in the series were caused by Tywin being a shitty father. Of course, many other problems were caused by the Stark men exercising very poor judgment. Ned trusting Little Finger was among the most blatant examples of bad ideas. Dude says "Don't trust me, I will gladly stab you in the back" and then you act all surprised when he does exactly that? Robb basically taking a steamer on a rather important oath he made to a rather important possible ally just so he could put his dick in a woman also stands out.

[Lord Revan]

Tbh you can't really blame any single person for all the problems Westeros is having but there's people who by their actions are making things worse.

[Pelranius]

yeah that also put things into perspective.

One thing I am a little confused about is Tywin and Arya. I loved the scenes, not just because they were well acted. I really got the sense that Tywin demonstrated a somewhat more human side during his interactions, even to the point where he actually seemed to care about her. Than he up and left her at Harrenhall. But I just don't think Tywin can connect with his children. At all. That's probably why he doesn't care. He can't connect so why try?

I think he could connect... if they did exactly as he demanded of them (which they have a rather lousy track record of doing so, to be fair).

I think he left Arya at Harrenhal because he didn't have any use for her (and he was in a hurry).

[DesertFly]

I like how it seems that Arya is getting more bloodthirsty. Granted, she has a reason: she's seen her father and friends murdered in front of her, and heard about the death of her mother and brothers, but still, killing someone in cold blood is pretty crazy!

[JLTucker]

I like how it seems that Arya is getting more bloodthirsty. Granted, she has a reason: she's seen her father and friends murdered in front of her, and heard about the death of her mother and brothers, but still, killing someone in cold blood is pretty crazy!

She also saw her brother with a direwolf head attached to his body.

[Crown]

I like how it seems that Arya is getting more bloodthirsty. Granted, she has a reason: she's seen her father and friends murdered in front of her, and heard about the death of her mother and brothers, but still, killing someone in cold blood is pretty crazy!

From here, episode recaps (TV info only no spoilers EXCEPT the comments section)

[TheHammer]

yeah that also put things into perspective.

One thing I am a little confused about is Tywin and Arya. I loved the scenes, not just because they were well acted. I really got the sense that Tywin demonstrated a somewhat more human side during his interactions, even to the point where he actually seemed to care about her. Than he up and left her at Harrenhall. But I just don't think Tywin can connect with his children. At all. That's probably why he doesn't care. He can't connect so why try?

Well he was riding into battle at Kings Landing. Whether he cared or not, taking her along wasn't exactly practical. She escaped Harrenhall shortly thereafter.

[Ralin]

On my phone until Sunday, so I'll keep this short, but I want to reiterate that I don't think Jaime was justified in tossing Bran out the window. But a justification is better than no justification in my book.

Jaine really isn't a good person by any stretch if the imagination, but someone here summed it up pretty well by saying that there's definitely a good person buried in there somewhere

[Vympel]

I'm glad they brought back Ser Dontos Hollard, given we last saw him in the Season 2 premiere. I know a lot of people hate Sansa's character, but I always really liked how she saved this poor idiot, and I really liked the actor's abilities on display in Season 4 premiere. I felt really sorry for him.

[JME2]

I'm glad they brought back Ser Dontos Hollard, given we last saw him in the Season 2 premiere. I know a lot of people hate Sansa's character, but I always really liked how she saved this poor idiot, and I really liked the actor's abilities on display in Season 4 premiere. I felt really sorry for him.

Spoiler

I'm sure it's going to break a lot of hearts when Littlefinger offs him.

[JME2]

I'm glad they brought back Ser Dontos Hollard, given we last saw him in the Season 2 premiere. I know a lot of people hate Sansa's character, but I always really liked how she saved this poor idiot, and I really liked the actor's abilities on display in Season 4 premiere. I felt really sorry for him.

Spoiler

I'm sure it's going to break a lot of hearts when Littlefinger offs him.

As per Sinewmire's request, that's a book spoiler -- it's not necessarily a TV spoiler.

Sorry.