Captain America: The Winter Soldier Reviews (SPOILERS)

[JME2]

For anyone wondering if the HYDRA takeover had been planned since Iron Man, Kevin Feige confirms that it wasn't part of the plan.

They didn't come up with the idea until just before they finished shooting The Avengers.

I wonder if that's part of why Senator Stern was revealed to be an operative -- to retroactively link the HYDRA conspiracy to earlier events in the MCU (similar to what the Cadmus arc did for the DC Animated Universe).

It may not have been part of the plan, but it should have been. It's the exact way Hydra would adapt. They've also already shown them adapting just this way in other media IIRC. It's a good adaptation to the facts they established.

And there's plenty of potential to link them to other past developments (the Ten Rings, Ross' super-soldier program, the Extremis conspiracy, etc.).

[Havok]

I enjoyed the movie and the overall plot was a great Hydra fairly out there kind of plot. Yes lets seize the world by killing 20 million people which will instantly cow the rest of the planet, uh huh sure.

You obviously weren't paying attention.

Zola's algorithm was designed to identify future trouble makers, not just for Hydra, but for the world in general, despite Hydra's existence or not.

That's what makes Pierce's case so compelling. Why WAIT for the bad guys to kill innocent people? Why not get them before they can with a super-computer/AI that is working towards the same ends you are, a peaceful, un-chaotic world.

Fury's outlook Vs Pierce's is one of degrees and proactive Vs reactive. It's also what makes his villainy so insidious, it's very hard to distinguish one from the other. Also remember what the Council member said: "Not with YOUR switch!" He didn't disagree with Pierce, he just didn't trust him in control.

It also targeted potential resistance. Think Skynet trying to kill John Connor. Yeah, there may be other leaders, but there won't be that guy. The idea was that those left wouldn't be strong enough or have the will to oppose Hydra.

The movie was a pretty strong damning of Fury and Shield in general. The American Director (Redford) is an agent of Hydra and the group has so much power within Shield that they have the Winter Soldier hidden away and pull him out anytime needed, Shield's elite strike teams are Hyda agents, and they seem to have no problem acquiring Loki's staff, which I would expect everyone would have been very interested in considering its mind control powers.

Hydra is an ideology. Like Pierce said, he didn't see the ways of Hydra as correct until he saw it work in the hands of a master like Fury. The only thing that separates Fury from Pierce is the story of his grandfather. He understands things because of his race and his grandfather's struggles that Pierce didn't get. Those things are also which keep Fury on the path of the righteous man.

The plan though left a lot of questions. Sure it was going to kill a lot of people in the immediate area. But it would not kill Stark, and when he puts on his new favorite Iron Man suite he is going to make complete mincemeat of those carriers. It is also going to do shit all against Thor who is likely not on planet and will fry them as easily as he friend a couple of those Space Whales when he went all uber Lightning God on them.

One would imagine that SHIELD in the years since New York would be better prepared for Iron Man, Thor and the Hulk. I don't know what they would be, but I imagine if the ships had been fully functional, fully staffed and fully protected would be able to fair well against the Avengers.

Even their target list made no sense. If Steven Strange is the current Sorcerer Supreme then targeting him is only going to get his attention. The same with Bruce Banner, shooting him is not going to kill him, its just going to unleash the hulk. Either one of them has the power to obliterate a carrier.

We don't know the status of Dr Strange at the moment. Remember, the algorithm is a predictive one. It targets future threats that may not have become fully realized yet. As for Banner, a regular human can survive a self inflicted gunshot wound. It only has to be long enough for the transformation to take place. A depleted uranium GazzilionMM shell traveling at velocity is going to make Banner into paste. The big guy isn't going to save him from that.

I am thinking that if expanded on, this plan was actually a false front, Redford and computer Hydra guy, and the various Hydra agents among Shield that new this plan were being played. They were told this was to unify, pacify, and unite the world, but in reality its intended goal was to cause even more chaos and weaken Earth in general.

Pay attention. This wasn't the plan to pacify the world. This was the plan to take out the most important threats to Hydra and a chaotic future. There was going to be serious anarchy going down after this happened. Did you miss the whole fucking part where Redford is looking off longingly into the distance out the window telling you exactly that? That the world needs to be destroyed before a better one can be built? Geezuz.

The fact that such a hair-brained plan was implemented after decades of Hydra hiding in the showers and playing things off quietly suggests that new influence was at work. Maybe the staff being on Earth, being "studied" by Hydra is actually there on purpose. The whole Avengers movie plan being nothing more than a way to safely get it onto Earth and into the right hands so the Red Skull, working for/with Thanos can influence things. His influence may explain why Hydra decided to be so in your face so suddenly with a flawed plan when they had done so much better from the Shadows for so long.

Their Shadow game with SHIELD was over. They could no longer push their agenda from secret. The reaction of the Security Council made that plain. Hydra needed to move into the light and reestablish themselves which they were going to do with the Helicarrier attacks. Now that doesn't mean that there weren't other cells doing their own thing, which I think Strucker was, as that makes sense based on the model of Hydra, but they needed a face again and Pierce was willing to be that and take the risk. That's also why the initial hit list had the most powerful people on it. Almost the entire leadership of the United States political and military machines were going to be eradicated leaving SHIELD/Hydra in control and with no real internal threats other than the Avengers to worry about.

[Lord Relvenous]

As for Hydra/SHIELD Cap makes it pretty clear that it is only the Strike and Insight specific teams that are Hydra. Basically, the SWAT guys and the carrier crews.

During his speech over the PA, Cap warns all the SHIELD agents that the person next to them could be a Hydra member. That certainly implies a widespread conspiracy.

[Replicant]

Just because Zola the 70s computer AI thinks his program is predictive and will remove future threats does NOT mean that it is true and effective. People can do a lot of things when put under stress and Hydra killing millions is not going to eliminate threats no matter what Max Headroom Zola may think.

The Shield agent specifically mentioned Strange in the same sentence as Banner, to be name dropped that blatantly is not going to be because this doctor in NY is writing some disturbing emails.

If Banner, even movie Banner, was so easy to kill in human form someone would have done it by now. To say all we need is to have our new helo carrier shoot him will be enough is silly.

Why are you taking the exposition from the digital bad guy as absolute fact? If his algorithm was so fucking predictive and he was so fucking smart then how did his plan fail so spectacularly? Zola is not omnipotent, his statements are his opinion, nothing more. Hell, at the very end it didn't appear that the Baron was all that upset that the plan failed.

[Replicant]

As for Hydra/SHIELD Cap makes it pretty clear that it is only the Strike and Insight specific teams that are Hydra. Basically, the SWAT guys and the carrier crews.

During his speech over the PA, Cap warns all the SHIELD agents that the person next to them could be a Hydra member. That certainly implies a widespread conspiracy.

There is no way for Cap to know this for sure but since the Agent that seems at least close to the same level to Colsen was a Hydra agent and a prominent member of Congress was a member, it was a pretty safe assumption. Overall though it looked like a vast majority of Shield was clean. Unfortunately it looks like a majority of the most dangerous members of Shield, ie their commando forces, were Hydra.

Question - Is Agent 13, who we later see joining the CIA someone of relevance in Marvel? Also the commando that gets smooshed by the helicarrier and they show all burnt but being treated by EMT in the very end, is he someone relevant?

Also did anyone think that they went out of their way to make Cap physically weaker? Based on what we see in Avengers Cap should be able to put his fist through someone's chest if he wanted to and yet at times we see completely normal humans standing up to him in a fight at least for a bit.

[Tsyroc]

Question - Is Agent 13, who we later see joining the CIA someone of relevance in Marvel? Also the commando that gets smooshed by the helicarrier and they show all burnt but being treated by EMT in the very end, is he someone relevant?

In the comics she is Sharon Carter, the niece of Peggy Carter. At various times she's been one of Steve's main romantic interest.

The guy who got all burnt up is the comic character Cross Bones. He's been a big time Red Skrull henchman in the comics for awhile. He and Batroc are two extremely skilled normal humans who have done pretty well fighting one on one with Cap in the comics.

Also did anyone think that they went out of their way to make Cap physically weaker? Based on what we see in Avengers Cap should be able to put his fist through someone's chest if he wanted to and yet at times we see completely normal humans standing up to him in a fight at least for a bit.

I thought most of the time he seemed stronger.

[Highlord Laan]

It's Winter Soldier in a disguise visiting the Captain America exhibit at the Smithsonian and seeing the exhibit about himself.

One thing that caught my eye was in the first set of credits, where one usually finds a few easter eggs for future movies. All the images were black and white, except the first one of the captain standing with this shield in front of him...with a red star in it's center. The comes the final teaser scene of Bucky at the exhibit.

[Havok]

As for Hydra/SHIELD Cap makes it pretty clear that it is only the Strike and Insight specific teams that are Hydra. Basically, the SWAT guys and the carrier crews.

During his speech over the PA, Cap warns all the SHIELD agents that the person next to them could be a Hydra member. That certainly implies a widespread conspiracy.

It does, but he knows for certain Insight and Strike ARE Hydra.

[Havok]

Just because Zola the 70s computer AI thinks his program is predictive and will remove future threats does NOT mean that it is true and effective. People can do a lot of things when put under stress and Hydra killing millions is not going to eliminate threats no matter what Max Headroom Zola may think.

Clearly the people working with Zola also believe it does what it says. I mean they aren't exactly idiots. It's also predictive, not psychic. It analyzes information and patterns and makes a determination, I am assuming, based on Hydra/SHIELD parameters that establish a potential threat level.

The Shield agent specifically mentioned Strange in the same sentence as Banner, to be name dropped that blatantly is not going to be because this doctor in NY is writing some disturbing emails.

And that still proves nothing. For all we know at this moment, Doctor Strange is still training to be Sorcerer Supreme and SHIELD is keeping tabs on him. After all, Hydra was no stranger to mystic or occult myths and artifacts.

If Banner, even movie Banner, was so easy to kill in human form someone would have done it by now. To say all we need is to have our new helo carrier shoot him will be enough is silly.

Are you going to make an actual argument or just keep saying "nuh uh!". We only have Banners word for it that the big guy saved him, but here's a little trinket for you to rattle around in your head, Banner and Hulk are the same entity. Banner KNEW he was about to put a bullet in himself, so on some level the Hulk also knew. They are not completely separate. That an unknown attack of what is sure to be calculated to do as much damage to the Hulk as possible yet won't make Banner into mush isn't going to work just because you say so, is quite frankly, stupid.

Why are you taking the exposition from the digital bad guy as absolute fact? If his algorithm was so fucking predictive and he was so fucking smart then how did his plan fail so spectacularly? Zola is not omnipotent, his statements are his opinion, nothing more. Hell, at the very end it didn't appear that the Baron was all that upset that the plan failed.

Why are you taking the exposition of the good guy as absolute fact?
Besides that, Zola's algorithm had nothing to with the carriers launching, or the circuit boards being changed or them figuring out who Pierce was, it had to do with everything else going according to plan so that it could then be ACTIVATED.

Fuck, did you even watch the movie?

[Havok]

Also did anyone think that they went out of their way to make Cap physically weaker? Based on what we see in Avengers Cap should be able to put his fist through someone's chest if he wanted to and yet at times we see completely normal humans standing up to him in a fight at least for a bit.

I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary for Marvel baseline humans. They usually tend to be made of sterner stuff than us. After all people like The Punisher routinely stand up to and hold their own against Cap.
Also Cap doesn't tend to use lethal force unless he has to, even in response to deadly threats or in pretty dire situations.

[FaxModem1]

I rather enjoyed the movie. Robert Redford somehow made flying aircraft carriers and NAZI conspiracies seem real.

Though, I am a bit bothered by the whole, 'Baby with the bathwater' being Captain America's Plan A. When the Skrulls, Kree, or whomever invade Earth, and there aren't any flying battleships to fight them, I'm sure Steve is going to feel rather sheepish.

[DarkArk]

Also did anyone think that they went out of their way to make Cap physically weaker?

No, if anything I think they did more to point out just how superhuman he really is. The action in the movie was very well done, and the shield has never been used better.

When the Skrulls, Kree, or whomever invade Earth, and there aren't any flying battleships to fight them, I'm sure Steve is going to feel rather sheepish.

I really hope that continues to be a plot point, because when I walked out I thought this might be the reason they make Ultron. They need some form of defense, even if Shield has been knocked out for at least the intermediate term.

But really those carriers would have screwed up so much, and had so much firepower, I'm not sure anything on Earth could have taken them out short of nukes or maybe Thor trying to go grab the Asgardian army to help out.

I wish Hawkeye had shown up in some form. Probably would have made the movie a little too crowded though.

[JME2]

I really hope that continues to be a plot point, because when I walked out I thought this might be the reason they make Ultron. They need some form of defense, even if Shield has been knocked out for at least the intermediate term.

Yeah, I think it's 50/50 at this point whether Ultron is Tony's creation (as a defense stopgap as you pointed out) or if HYDRA's screwing around with a combination of Iron Man/Asgardaian/Chitauri/Dark Elf tech.

[Eframepilot]

Yeah, I think it's 50/50 at this point whether Ultron is Tony's creation (as a defense stopgap as you pointed out) or if HYDRA's screwing around with a combination of Iron Man/Asgardaian/Chitauri/Dark Elf tech.

I think that it would be a step back in Tony's characterization if he creates the next great threat to humanity himself. However, HYDRA is perfectly set up to develop Ultron, and they also have the next two Avengers locked up, too, so they will almost certainly be connected.

[Tsyroc]

Yeah, I think it's 50/50 at this point whether Ultron is Tony's creation (as a defense stopgap as you pointed out) or if HYDRA's screwing around with a combination of Iron Man/Asgardaian/Chitauri/Dark Elf tech.

With Jarvis and Zola as in universe A.I.s it could be either. Maybe some bastardization of both?

I like the idea of Ultron's power source being similar to that of the Destroyer from Thor. I wonder if Ultron's outer casing will be made of Vibranium since that's the uber metal in the cinematic universe.

[lance]

Am I the only one who hopes Zola shows up again?

[Bedlam]

Am I the only one who hopes Zola shows up again?

Given what he became it would be quite easy for them to be multiple copies of him about. I forget how much magnetic tape was mentioned but you could probably put the same amount of info into a smart phone now a days

[Havok]

Am I the only one who hopes Zola shows up again?

The idea that Zola wasn't keeping tabs on technology and wasn't prepared to be found and have an escape route is pretty silly, especially considering there was a USB 4.gazzillion or whatever already hooked up to his systems and this is a comic book super villain.

Zola will be back exactly the way he is in the comics. A digital face in an android body. Probably taken from Stark designs.

[NeoGoomba]

I wonder what will happen to SHIELD's primary helicarrier now that the organization is dissolved. Will the CIA or FBI get to scoop it up?

And I doubt that the world is suddenly defensless from extra-Earth threats with SHIELD gone. Going by the CU timeline, Stark alone has had a solid year and a half with his mind firmly back in place to be preparing for shit like that. For example, Spoiler

We already know the Hulkbuster armor is going to be in Avengers 2 and I'm sure it will be a legit model, unlike those devkits Stark was slapping together in Iron Man 3 during his existential crisis

Plus we know he's back in the military R&D game at least slightly with his work on Project Insight. The US military has War Machine, and we know as of Iron Man 2 that other nations and companies are working on their own combat suits. Granted, the ones shown in IM2 were failures, but now there have been literally years for them to focus on refinement.

Basically, all the Marvel Earth futuretech has been fast tracked since Iron Man 2. I'm hoping we get to see more of it that isn't just Stark Industries or SHIELD cast-offs. And yes, if that means M.O.D.O.K. in his flying toilet seat, then SO BE IT!

[NeoGoomba]

Hell, Hammer Industries already had highly capable combat drones. It was only Hammer's insistence to copy Stark and make them manned suits instead of drones that was leading him to development hell.

EDIT- grammar.

[Civil War Man]

Are you going to make an actual argument or just keep saying "nuh uh!". We only have Banners word for it that the big guy saved him, but here's a little trinket for you to rattle around in your head, Banner and Hulk are the same entity. Banner KNEW he was about to put a bullet in himself, so on some level the Hulk also knew. They are not completely separate. That an unknown attack of what is sure to be calculated to do as much damage to the Hulk as possible yet won't make Banner into mush isn't going to work just because you say so, is quite frankly, stupid.

Also, in the standalone movie with Norton, Ross's people managed to hit him with a tranquilizer. In that case, he had just finished Stern's procedure, so either the Hulk was still suppressed or it's possible to neutralize/kill him as long as he's caught completely unaware in Banner form and the attack is powerful enough to knock him out or kill him almost instantly. Getting all three of those criteria is the tricky part. If he's already turned into the Hulk, you are pretty much stuck waiting until he calms down because he's effectively invulnerable in that form, and if he gets any advanced warning or the attack takes time to take effect he's probably going to turn into the Hulk before you can take Banner down.

Speaking of the Hulk, I did hear rumors that, due to the character's popularity in the Avengers, they were going to try to make more standalone Hulk movies. One of the possibilities mentioned was The Indestructible Hulk, but Winter Soldier threw a spanner in the works for doing that in the near future.

[JME2]

I've been hearing rumors about a Planet Hulk adaptation, too.

[Civil War Man]

I've heard that, too. It makes sense, since Planet Hulk is one of the more well-known Hulk storylines. I'd probably delay it for a couple phases if I were in charge, though. Having Planet Hulk as the second standalone movie for the character strikes me as Marvel blowing its load too early. At the very least they could probably get a movie with Sterns as the Leader first. I think it would also be a pretty dramatic shift to have Stark going from one of Banner's only friends to exiling him off the planet, which deserves at least some setup.

I'd be surprised if they didn't do it eventually, though. Between Thor, Thanos, the Infinity Gems, and the Guardians of the Galaxy, it's obvious they aren't shying away from the various outer space settings.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Thing is, with what's been said in Agents of SHIELD I don't think the organisation is going to totally disappear. Sure, Fury is in hiding, Romanov is appearing before hearings and the new helicarriers crashed into the Potomac, and we saw Hill and that other girl going elsewhere, but SHIELD was a big place, I can't imagine it's going to just shut down overnight.

[Civil War Man]

It's not going to disappear, but if SHIELD continues to exist it will need to be torn down and then rebuilt in order to get rid of the HYDRA roots. Though doing that would give them the ability to do Indestructible Hulk, after all, if the government officially hires Banner to head the R&D wing of the rebuilt SHIELD or something to that effect.

Having a giant green rage monster in some kind of executive position would certainly make some think twice about attempting to infiltrate the organization.