Arrow (TV show) thread - SPOILERS WITHIN

[Iroscato]

So I decided to watch Arrow the other week, as the finale of series 2 approaches, and I have now burned through ever episode broadcast so far. My thoughts are as follows.

Good stuff.
- It seems to be made by people who have a clue what they're doing, which is of course always good. The storylines, both in the present day and in the flashbacks to Queen's time on the island, are engaging and interesting, with the island sequences arguably more so, as the reasons for Queen's striking changes during his five-year disappearance are gradually revealed.
- The action is pretty awesome when it gets it right, and it does a good job of getting it right fairly often. Though many situations are often solved with Arrow punching/shooting his way out of it, there are moments of true ingenuity - impaling himself on his own arrow to kill Merlyn comes to mind. There's also a healthy amount of time that Queen spends hooded up, especially in the second season as he delves deeper into the crazy realm that is the underworld.
- The show manages to keep things fairly grounded and realistic, whilst also playing fast and loose with the laws of physics and having multiple larger-than-life characters appear and interact. It's striking a very good balance so far, allowing it to stay faithful to its comic book origins, but not coming across as silly or ungainly, which in my opinion is bloody hard to do. Kudos to the production team, in that case.
- In addition to the last point, I really like the costume design of the heroes and villains - Arrow is subtle but effective, and Deathstroke looks like he walked out of the comics. Great stuff.
- John Barrowman being evil. 'Nuff said.

The bad.
- While I appreciate it's being shown on the 'CW' (some sort of american channel, that seems to attract some infamy), and probably has to bring in a wider audience than just comic book fans, I really would not lose much enjoyment of the show if it just toned down the love triangles/squares/hexagons that keep popping up, not to mention much of the general drama. It adds very little to the meat of the show, and comes across as very mundane and overdone.
- Although for the most part it wears its TV budget extremely well, there are moments where the CG is painfully obvious, and some of the stunts and choreography is very dodgy indeed. This seems to have been improved upon in the second season, but it's still there at times.
- The characters often don't talk in a realistic manner at all, spouting out mini essays during conversations that badly affects the flow of a scene. Again, I think the second season has taken steps to improve this.
- The character of Laurel has degraded from being a mildly interesting, strong female lead to a shrieking, blubbering, stroppy cow. I understand she's been through a lot, but holy shit, so have pretty much the entire cast. Her story arc inspires zero interest in me now, I really hope they sort their act out when it comes to writing her scenes soon.
- Death really doesn't seem to be much of a roadblock in this show. If we exclude Queen as he's the main character, the characters that have been 'died' then revealed to be alive are Sara, Merlyn, Deadshot and Walter. It just doesn't translate very well from comics, as real humans are squishy and have more obvious injuries than their cartoon counterparts.

Despite its flaws, I'm really enjoying the show and I can tell it's continually improving. I look forward to seeing how far it can go, now that I'm caught up and will have to wait a week between each episode.

What are your thoughts guys?

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

I discovered this show after initially dismissing it, and was pleasantly surprised at just how damn good the first season was. It's the kind of show I probably would have enjoyed more if I was a teenager - sort of a guy's version of Buffy - but I still find it enjoyable and (mostly) watchable as a 20-something. As stated, it's a CW show, which means the target audience is 16-year-olds, hence the high school-level soap opera that crops up. Apart from that, though, Season 1 was very, very good. The juxtaposition of the 5-years-ago island story is excellent and helps display Oliver's growth. Diggles is a great character, even if they made a couple missteps with him in a few episodes, the initial introduction of Oliver and Diggles is a great dynamic. Felicity is likewise awesome, though I'm sad that her awkward double entendres seem to have been toned down in Season 2. Detective Lance is another fucking great character, who starts off quite antagonistic but displays some pretty awesome growth throughout both seasons thus far.

Really, almost all of the characters are great, come to think. Roy/Red Arrow is neat, Thea is cool, Mrs Queen is excellently acted, Walter is quite likable... and Season 1's villain is, of course, John Barrowman.

The second season took a sharp and perilous nose-dive with Laurel becoming absolutely insufferably awful, and increasingly cheesy comic-book-ness which I think they've taken just a step too far (season 1 had it right, I think, being on about the same level as Nolan's Batman movies). The villainy is less down-to-earth - instead of corrupt assholes and organized crime, now Green Arrow is taking out increasingly improbable Blatant Comic References with ridiculous names and MOs, who have an even more improbable ability to not die. Seriously, how many times do we need to see this Vertigo Count guy who's obviously straight out of a comic book? I'll grant his first "re-appearance" was cleverly done and well-executed, but after that it's just gotten tiresome and tedious. I also much preferred Nolan's League of Shadows to Arrow's more comic booky League of Assassins, which is portrayed a little ridiculously.

This combined with Oliver's sudden bullshit "I'M NOT GOING TO KILL ANYONE ANYMORE YOU GUYS AND BE EVEN MORE EXACTLY IDENTICAL TO BATMAN," made me vomit out my eyeballs, they were rolling so hard. That was a terrible direction to take the show in, because one of the beautiful things about Season 1 was that Oliver fucking killed people... and, gasp, this was actually an issue, with real consequences for it and a real impact, rather than just being dead Redshirts swept under a rug and forgotten about. The Flash's cameo wasn't that great, either, and Summer Glau appears to have vanished, which is a shame because that plot line seemed interesting as Oliver is forced to deal with "real life."

That said, Season 2 seems to have leveled off and gotten back on track. Laurel had some goddamn sense beaten into her by Detective "Awesome" Lance, making her insufferable bullshit a bit more sufferable. Oliver appears to have eased off his No Killing policy a little, though I'm disappointed at the villain switcheroo. Crixus Deathstroke is interesting, but it seems to have come at the expense of Blood, who was, despite the comic book absurdity, turning out to be really interesting with his real life mayoral aspirations and alliance with Oliver Queen while being at odds with Green Arrow. Deadshot got some growth and development though, which I thought was nice even if he is a minor and mildly-ridiculous character.

I think they tried to cram too much into Season 2, especially with giving the Flash a 2-parter. Some of the most interesting story-lines (Roy's development and street life, Blood's political rise and love-hate with Queen, Queen Industries and Summer Glau) have gotten nearly forgotten in favor of the big Crixus Deathstroke/Mirakuru stuff, and an interesting but somewhat out-of-the-blue ARGUS/Diggles storyline. I do think Diggles deserves more development, but Season 2 is just getting too crowded.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

A few thoughts I forgot to add.

- I loved the Season 1 ending. I won't spoil it, but I thought it was pretty ballsy and interesting. The follow-up with Oliver was stupid, but I ignore that and pretend he just stayed in Starling City. Which brings me to the next thing...

- Where the fuck do these people live? I mean, Starling City, okay. I can swallow a fictional city for the purposes of telling a fictional story. That doesn't bother me. They make a few references to modern day reality (Diggles is an Afghanistan veteran), which makes things a slight stretch, but still okay - Starling City is just in some nebulous, non-specific mumble mumble, USA. Kind of like Springfield in the The Simpsons, or Gotham in Batman. Still fine. Then they introduce Central City... and then we've got weird fictional super-agencies like ARGUS which seem to be some sort of CIA-analog, but not? And then the fictional countries (they recently named a fictional Generic Middle East Country I forget the name of, and what I'm guessing was some kind of Russia-analog)? This happens in the very same episode we get a Diggles flashback to Afghanistan instead of the normal island story, no less! And Season 1's island story involves tensions with China. So where the fuck is this world? Is this some goddamn alternate reality tearing the veil between mortal realms, coterminous with Real Earth?

Make up your fuckin' minds whether this show is set in Plausible Reality a la Stargate, or Totally Fictional World a la Kings.

[FaxModem1]

I've been watching this show from the beginning, and I love it. It's a gradual turning of Batman-lite, which the show was at first, and even through that's how Green Arrow started, it's great that the show isn't trying to be Nolan-verse Batman anymore after about the sixth episode, and is now trying to be the DC universe on a TV budget.

Also, I'm rather glad they got rid of Ollie killing every mook in sight, as it wasn't who Ollie is, but some bizarre serial killer who killed only 9 to 5 henchmen and gave the mob bosses and corrupt people second chances.

The goal of the show, and one I'm rather enjoying, is that it's turning something that's rather like our world, and slowly having the show turn into the DC universe, as the creators have said that they want to make the show into as close to the DC universe as possible without having superpowered freaks everywhere. Though, due to the Flash series coming out later this year, that may be changing.

- Where the fuck do these people live? I mean, Starling City, okay. I can swallow a fictional city for the purposes of telling a fictional story. That doesn't bother me. They make a few references to modern day reality (Diggles is an Afghanistan veteran), which makes things a slight stretch, but still okay - Starling City is just in some nebulous, non-specific mumble mumble, USA. Kind of like Springfield in the The Simpsons, or Gotham in Batman. Still fine. Then they introduce Central City... and then we've got weird fictional super-agencies like ARGUS which seem to be some sort of CIA-analog, but not? And then the fictional countries (they recently named a fictional Generic Middle East Country I forget the name of, and what I'm guessing was some kind of Russia-analog)? This happens in the very same episode we get a Diggles flashback to Afghanistan instead of the normal island story, no less! And Season 1's island story involves tensions with China. So where the fuck is this world? Is this some goddamn alternate reality tearing the veil between mortal realms, coterminous with Real Earth?

Make up your fuckin' minds whether this show is set in Plausible Reality a la Stargate, or Totally Fictional World a la Kings.

It's a DC Earth, so New York, China, Russia, Chicago, Afghanistan, etc. all exist, but so do fictional places like Starling City, Central City, Qurac, Markovia.

[Iroscato]

Yeah, I just think of it as normal, bog-standard Earth but with extra bits bolted on. Same with Marvel.
Who agrees with me that WB needs to pull their finger out and just make Arrow part of the same continuity as Man of Steel? That way you have Green Arrow and the Flash established without the need for too much introduction in the film medium, and it would help pull together a JL movie a whole hell of a lot easier.

[Crazedwraith]

It also sticks you with having TV actors in your big dollar movies. Which I guesses cuts cast costs down for your JL movie if nothing else.

[Iroscato]

It also sticks you with having TV actors in your big dollar movies. Which I guesses cast costs down for your JL movie if nothing else.

As long as they're capable enough and can carry the role effectively, I personally don't give a crap - I can't speak for everyone of course. Amell does a perfectly fine job of playing both sides of his role, I could see him standing in the same room as Cavill with ease.

[Batman]

I'm not particularly in favour of their being a 'Man of Steel' continuity to begin with but letting them integrate 'Arrow' with it might be worth it just to find out how they explain how Ollie ended up with my archenemy.

Other than them borrowing from my supporting cast I actually quite enjoy the series so far.

[FaxModem1]

I'm not particularly in favour of their being a 'Man of Steel' continuity to begin with but letting them integrate 'Arrow' with it might be worth it just to find out how they explain how Ollie ended up with my archenemy.

Other than them borrowing from my supporting cast I actually quite enjoy the series so far.

Joker isn't on Arrow.

[Batman]

Joker also isn't my archenemy anymore.(Hasn't been for some 30 years or so). The name you're looking for is Ra's al Gul.

[FaxModem1]

Joker also isn't my archenemy anymore.(Hasn't been for some 30 years or so). The name you're looking for is Ra's al Gul.

And yet you spend more of your time hunting down a clown and only deal with Ras occasionally. If you really want to complain, they did use up Firefly in one episode in season 1.



ANYWAY, Ras al Ghul and the League of Assassins has been an enemy of Ollie plenty of times, so it works that Green Arrow is having to deal with them in his own show.

[Iroscato]

Joker also isn't my archenemy anymore.(Hasn't been for some 30 years or so). The name you're looking for is Ra's al Gul.

they did use up Firefly in one episode in season 1.

Considering the rather cavalier attitude to death in this show, I wouldn't be 100% sure he's gone...

[Lord Revan]

Joker also isn't my archenemy anymore.(Hasn't been for some 30 years or so). The name you're looking for is Ra's al Gul.

they did use up Firefly in one episode in season 1.

Considering the rather cavalier attitude to death in this show, I wouldn't be 100% sure he's gone...

The Deathstroke from the island seems have remained dead, with Slade Wilson "inheriting" the codename, as for Count Vertigo IIRC he never truly died at least in season 1 they've just started showing season 2 here.

[JME2]

Joker also isn't my archenemy anymore.(Hasn't been for some 30 years or so). The name you're looking for is Ra's al Gul.

On a side note, I agree; I don't consider Joker Bats' arch-foe any more.

His most personal foe, yes...but Ra's is by far the greater threat.

[Batman]

Screw greatest threat. The miserable bastard wouldn't even take Damian over the weekends.

On a more serious note (insofar as that is possible when dealing with fictional characters) I do think the Head of the Demon has become far more central to the Batman myth than the Clown Prince of Crime ever was. The Joker is, well, the Joker. He's the most prominent of the madmen I have to deal with but at the end of the day, he is one of them. Ra's is father to one of my recurring love interests, grandfather to our son, he'd rather have me for a son-in-law than an enemy, our connection (and enmity) is a lot more personal than anything I ever had with the Joker.

[PREDATOR490]

I find the series interesting but I continue to get annoyed with the comic bullshit of noone being able to identify Arrow when he conceals his identity with a slap of eye shadow. If you want to conceal your identity do it properly or not at all. The eye shadow will not do shit if someone gets a look at his face.

[FaxModem1]

Yeah, that was a major complaint for a lot of people, including myself. They fixed it in season 2 though.

[Iroscato]

Tonight's episode, 'Birds of Prey', seemed to mostly be filler, with a single 'oh, shit' moment at the end with Slade apparently preparing to take Thea hostage. It did partially redeem The Huntress however, and brought a close to at least part of her story arc, though I'd be surprised if she never showed up again.
Speaking of redemption, Laurel as a character was a good 20 decibels quieter than she has been in previous episodes - it was nice to see her pulling herself back together, despite the fact that her incredible recovery from drug and alcohol abuse was done at a laughably fast pace. The weakest episode of season 2 so far, I think, but still not bad.

[FaxModem1]

I really hope Roy starts wearing a mask soon, as he's the only one of Team Arrow who goes into the field without one.

[Broomstick]

Yeah, that was a major complaint for a lot of people, including myself. They fixed it in season 2 though.

Oh, right, because that domino mask really hides his identity...

Though I like that voice-modifier thingy, probably one of the more intelligent elements of disguise I've seen/heard in awhile.

Started watching season 1 on Netflix, now catching up on season 2 on Hulu although it seems there's a big chunk of season 2 I'm not going to see until it comes out on Netflix or my library picks it up for its collection.

Not bad for a live action TV comic book show. I am amused and diverted, and that is really the point of it all, isn't it? I'm hoping the spin-off of the Flash is done as well. The Flash (both golden age and silver age) was always one of my favorite comic book characters even when it went over the top silly.

I do like that Team Arrow is necessary - really Ollie would be toast if he didn't have his support crew and allies.

[FaxModem1]

My predictions for the rest of season 2 of Arrow:

Deathstroke seems like he has all the cards right now, but that is actually a House of Cards, which can easily crumble at any given opportunity.

Consider: Isabel and Blood both want certain things from Deathstroke, and only want those things. Isabel wanted control of Queen Consolidated, which she got. She doesn't need anything else from Slade. Blood wants to be mayor of the city, and leader of the city. That is heavily dependent on Slade being able to deliver, and Blood having the patience to stay with him. His chances for being mayor are already fading before his eyes. The prisoners he just freed? They might serve him out of fear, cash, or gratitude, but they will just walk away at the nearest opportunity if it comes down to the wire.

Contrast this with Oliver's team. Oliver trusts and is friends with Diggle, Felicity, Sara, and Roy. And while Roy left, it's only because he's emotionally unstable, and needs to sort things out. Diggle, Felicity, and Sara, trust Oliver, love him in one sense or another, believe in his cause of saving the city, and are doing what they can to make the city a better place. They will stick together while Deathstroke's crew will fall apart.

Just my thoughts, anyway.

[Lord Revan]

I wonder if they're gonna do the same the same thing with Sara and Laurel that they did with Slade Wilson and Billy Wintergreen was it where one introduces the "super hero/villain" character before the one who is that character in the comics takes over for what ever reason.

[FaxModem1]

That's really dependent on Laurel being a likeable character, something which season 2 has really made difficult with her downward spiral and general attitude towards the other characters.

[FaxModem1]

So, I was at least right about Sebastian Blood. He tried to do the right thing and save the city, only to be fileted by Ravager.

[Lord Revan]

So, I was at least right about Sebastian Blood. He tried to do the right thing and save the city, only to be fileted by Ravager.

Ravager? as in Rose Wilson or different character with the same codename?