New Discworld book from Pratchett! WOOHOO!! (Raising Steam)

[Crossroads Inc.]

A note Please no spoilers yet! It's just released in the US, Raising Steam Promises to be very "interesting" as it finally answered the question "What happens when the Science of the Steam Engine meets the magic of the Discworld?"
We shall have to find out!

[Ahriman238]

Happy to get a last ride with Moist, though I would have liked to see him as the Taxman.

Did you just request no spoilers... and then link to a reasonably detailed synopsis that gives the entire plot away?

[Simon_Jester]

It's Crossroads. He does things like that.

Anyway, yes. Honestly I like this better because it helps us cap off the "industrialization of Ankh-Morpork" storyline that's crossed multiple individual character arcs. Moist's own story as a reformer of state institutions might be better served by a "taxman" novel, but Ankh-Morpork's story is best served by this.

[Crossroads Inc.]

It's Crossroads. He does things like that.

Yeah... I'm an air head at times...
Official mod request to delete link

Anyways... I very much agree that it will be good to see " real" industrialization in disc world and Ankh-morpork. To a certain extent they have modernized , but it's been largely through magical methods. Imps for cameras and PDA's. Cubes for motor power of "the undertaking" brooms for fling, etc.
The last time we had an actual "science" advance, it was in the Clacks network. Although before that it was in "Moving Pictures" and we know how that ended

[Zaune]

It's Crossroads. He does things like that.

Anyway, yes. Honestly I like this better because it helps us cap off the "industrialization of Ankh-Morpork" storyline that's crossed multiple individual character arcs. Moist's own story as a reformer of state institutions might be better served by a "taxman" novel, but Ankh-Morpork's story is best served by this.

And let's face it, I think even the great Pterry might have trouble writing an enjoyable comic novel about tax reform.

[Batman]

He already wrote an enjoyable novel about the mail service and another about the Mint. The question isn't if Sir Terry can produce a worthwhile 'Moist as tax collector' novel, it's 'will his mind hold together long enough for him to do it'.
And yes, caring more about getting the 'tax collector' novel than Sir Terry's fate makes me a terrible person. I can live with that. I'm the Valendamned Batman. I'm a terrible person by default. But the 'tax collector' novel is something I think Moist needs, Sir Terry wanted to do, and there's jack all I can do about Sir Terry's medical condition. But if the 'tax collector' novel happens, we'll have one more book to remember him by.

[Crossroads Inc.]

My big thing about the "Raising Taxes" box ever getting done, is that I always felt it would finally answer the rumor that Vetinari has been grooming Moist to replace him as Patrician.

The 'buzz' for ages has been the being put into all of these big government jobs, The Post Office, the Bank, and finally the Taxes, that it's been to give Moist a crash course in basically running the city as it where. I know it's been rumored Vimes was being considered, but I doubt he would ever EVER accept the job (even though I feel he could do it)

But yeah, I have no doubt it would be amazing... If terry can make it

[Batman]

Great Valen no. Vimes could never do the job. He'd do his level best and he might even succeed for a while but he'd eventually fail because deep down (admittedly very deep down), he's a decent man. (Well technically he'd run like hell the moment he got a whiff of somebody contemplating offering him the job but if and when they manage to corner him, he'd probably very reluctantly take it). Carrot would be even worse (and knows it) but Moist might be just the right mixture of devious and decent to do the job. Which he knows so he's going to great lengths to not get the job.

[Simon_Jester]

I wonder.

Pratchett's been pitching Carrot as someone who actually... might have the intelligence to rule, and his sheer popularity counts for something too. He's not naive or stupid, well, at least he's not naive anymore. The real catch is that this brings back the era of the kings, and neither Vimes nor Vetinari has any desire to see that happen.

[Crossroads Inc.]

No... Carrot could NEVER be Patrician for similar reasons for Vimes.
But above them all, he couldn't do it because he COULD do it. Many books ago, Vimes had stepped down as Leader of the Watch, and Carrot, through sheer force of will, basically put together a new watch I'm the span of a single Day and near single handed solved a murder case tha had threatened the stability of the whole city. Later Vetinari is talking to him, and asks if he had thought about ruling the city, and he responds with:
"NO I couldn't, because I COULD. People should follow someone because they want to, not because "Captain Carrot" tells them to." And thats the thing, he'd rule the city, but only because people are basically following his Charisma.
1000' years ago he would have made a perfect "Great King" but not these days. The main thing is in modern times, there is just no place for a "King Carrot"
Another quote from him was something along the lines of:
"If there was an aire to the King of Ankh, then the best thing he could is to get on with a decent days work" or such.

Personally however...
I think Vetinari's greatest plan in his career is to try and set up a city that doesn't NEED a Patrician.

[Ahriman238]

To be honest, I'm grateful. I'd resigned myself to never getting a third Moist book, so whatever Pterry can serve, I'm happy for it.

[Simon_Jester]

No... Carrot could NEVER be Patrician for similar reasons for Vimes.
But above them all, he couldn't do it because he COULD do it. Many books ago, Vimes had stepped down as Leader of the Watch, and Carrot, through sheer force of will, basically put together a new watch I'm the span of a single Day and near single handed solved a murder case tha had threatened the stability of the whole city. Later Vetinari is talking to him, and asks if he had thought about ruling the city, and he responds with:
"NO I couldn't, because I COULD. People should follow someone because they want to, not because "Captain Carrot" tells them to." And thats the thing, he'd rule the city, but only because people are basically following his Charisma.
1000' years ago he would have made a perfect "Great King" but not these days. The main thing is in modern times, there is just no place for a "King Carrot"
Another quote from him was something along the lines of:
"If there was an aire to the King of Ankh, then the best thing he could is to get on with a decent days work" or such.

Crossroads, you're failing to distinguish between "can" and "would."

Carrot would never try to rule Ankh-Morpork as king. But his stated reason for not doing so is because he could do so, and doesn't want that kind of power over people.

I can conceive of events that would force his hand. But he's not really a good choice; Moist would be a better choice. Vimes probably not, simply because he'd smash the hell out of things.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Sorry, I should have researched the exact quote instead of guessing at it, but that's basically what I meant. The events at the end of "Men at arms" seem to strongly suggest that Carrot is aware of his special heritage and has no intention of ever ruling the city.

As for the book, into the second chapter now and starting to wonder if terry may end up merging what would have happend in "raising taxes" with this book. There is lots of talking going on by certain important people.

[Vendetta]

It's Crossroads. He does things like that.

Anyway, yes. Honestly I like this better because it helps us cap off the "industrialization of Ankh-Morpork" storyline that's crossed multiple individual character arcs. Moist's own story as a reformer of state institutions might be better served by a "taxman" novel, but Ankh-Morpork's story is best served by this.

And let's face it, I think even the great Pterry might have trouble writing an enjoyable comic novel about tax reform.

Charles Stross managed a space opera about banking fraud, so it can be done.

[Steve]

I'm more inclined to the theory that Vetinari's grand, long-term project is to reform Ankh-Morpork to the point that further Patricians won't need to, and can't, wield dictatorial powers. I suspect it's a project he implemented when "Men at Arms" nearly saw him killed and when he was prompted to begin rebuilding the City Watch, and that he felt more confidence in when de Worde's newspaper succeeded, creating a free press and another institution that can provide checks and balances to the city political system. Now throw in Moist reforming the city's civil service department by department and you have a formula for a city with a stable, responsible government that Vetinari's eventual replacements can't tear down easily due to checks and balances while the Guilds can't simply run the city into the ground either, because the government will be powerful enough to tell them no.

[LaCroix]

I just found out that they are handing out a two-piece set of huge (like, 3x4 feet per piece) maps of ankh-morpok (one artistical with skyline, one "touristical") for free at our bookshop to celebrate this. Guess who has one, now...

[Crossroads Inc.]

Well about half way through the book and DAMN Things are getting , well, very "Undiscworld-y" Like, things are getting "Real world" levels of seriousness.
I mean in almost all Discworld books, the bad guys have been "bad guys" and the bad things that have happened have been, for the most part, all rather "comical" or there have been 'dark' things, but mostly on a small scale.
This book has the feel of some Political thriller.

Also I feel this book could have easily been two or even three. I mean there are HUGE swaths of time passing in this story. I am pretty sure were at least one year in already and closing in on two years since the start (or at least I get the feeling of that)

Also also… LaCroix? I am SOOOO Damn envious of you

[PainRack]

For some strange reason, I found the book more entertaining and readable than snuff, even though the book used back the characters and motiffs introduced there.
Its probably because the industrialisation of Ankh Morpork promises something utterly different for them, a "we will rise" moment perhaps...... this even while the Spoiler

dwarves are falling

It also give me hope that somehow, a taxman novel will be amazingly funny. Dodger and Snuff was a let down because its actually possible to see Sir Pratchett decline......... knowing his condition, it was almost heart breaking painful to read.

[Vendetta]

So I've finished this now.

And not to put too fine a point on it, it's bad.

Like, really bad. It doesn't even feel finished, it's more like a collection of notes designed to be incorporated into a novel than an actual novel. At no point are the characters ever challenged by the events, not least because they rarely feel like unique characters, they just show up and say things, frequently with very similar "voices" (and often not ones they have used in previous books). Meanwhile the book can't seem to stay with any one scene for more than a few paragraphs, things are rushed and there's no care taken over the details of a scene as there has been before, the characters lack mannerism and, well, character.

There's been a decline in quality recently, but Raising Steam is just badly constructed as a novel.

[Crossroads Inc.]

So finished it yesterday myself and... Well...
Let me start by saying long of my long term gripes with Discworld books, is usually the Lack of any sort of feeling of "Mortal Danger" in both villains and certain situations.

I have long felt that Practhett has become so good at "Sillyness" that it is really hard for him to present situations in which you are NOT 100% sure that the good guys will escape utterly unharmed. Looking back through his works, of "badguys" the only ones that struck me as truly 'villainous' and inspired actual feelings of danger, were "Vorbis" from "SmallGods" and "Carsar" from "NightWatch". Most other "Badguys" usually come off as comical, or, you can see how they will meet their ultimate doom many chapters before the end.

Now then... As far as "Raising Steam" goes, I want to say overall I did enjoy it. I found it MUCH more entertaining than his last books "Snuff" which just felt mostly... boring, through most of it; and "I shall ware midnight" which I felt was VERY Disappointing for the final Witches book.

The main thing with "Raising Steam" is that it's best aspect, was also it's worse aspect in that it felt like several stories all banged together. As far as I know it is the "longest" discworld book in that the time involved is (by my reckoning) is nearly two years from the start of the book. I Feel Pratchett, had things been different, might have made this a "Two parter" Like the first series Color of Magic. But had to, cut things down as it were.

Which leads into the biggest problem with it that Vendetta mentioned which it is a HUGE MESS! I agree that it felt like a lot of "Notes" or "essays" being stitched together. Pratchetts books have always been heavy on "The Narrator" speaking for much of the book, but this one felt like almost 90% Narration and only occasionally had people "Talking" as it were. It does indeed bounce all over, often going to small side stories that have nothing to do with the over all story.
Now this has been done in the past, but usually such a small "side story" is done to impart some clue or bit of information to us the reader, even if it never meets up with the characters in the story at large.
At times it felt "Preachy" as most of these side stories consisted of "Two people doing something that shows how the difference and prejudices of the past are being swept away!"
Also there are more than a few things touched upon, and then never remarked on or followed up with. Spoiler

At one point, the Watchman from "Snuff" goes to visit the Goblins from that town, and finds them building their own high speed underground train system. The goblins go on about building a huge network to travel to All goblin caves. I got the impressions this was going to play some vital roll later on, but it's never refereed back to again.

Another gripe... For a book that shoes-horn in countless cameo's and people from other stories, it is amazing how many more recent things seem to make no mention what so ever. Spoiler

The whole "Undertaking" underground rail system that starts in "Thud" and is mentioned in both "Making Money" and "Unseen Academicals" has NO MENTION Whatsoever in "Raising Steam". Given that the whole story revolves around mass transit and railways, you would think it would be featured in SOME capacity in the expanding infrastructure.

I have to say half way into the book I felt that there was going to be some SERIOUS sinister forces at work. With acts of terrorism and murders and conspiracies, I thought at first it would be more like some Tom Clancy thriller. But no... The 'villains' once again begin to fall apart at the seems, the underlings always crack and fold and spill everything, and the heros are helped by more dumb luck than is sometimes believable EVEN in a Discworld story! (Micromail, and the alloy its made from has got to be one of the biggest plot devices ever)

Once again take all of this with a HUGE grain of salt, one can not be too hard give Pratchetts, situation, and given the HUGE volume of incredible stories in the past, I can not level too much fault against his current works. Basically there is a LOT of good stuff in it, but it suffers from feeling like two books mashed into one book, and an unfinished book at that.

To wrap things up, a few interesting things we learn in the story...
The events take place approximately Eight years after "The Fifth Elephant"
Harry King has gone from needing to borrow 100,000k in "Making Money" to now 'easily' spending several million.
The events in "Small Gods" are given an exact date by way of talking about when the "steam engine" of that story was built.