Tuatha de Danann RAR!

[Ahriman238]

In honor of St. Patrick's day and poorly conceived "what-if?" scenarios.

In the Book of Invasions and a handful of other pre-Christianity works there are a people called the Tuatha de Danann who came to Ireland from their four cities in the west. These figures later became gods, and later still the genesis of faeries/elves in myth.

So on St. Paddy's day, every Irishman, and every person with a single Irish ancestor wakes up with the attributes the Tuatha De had before they became gods (less the unquantifiable magic.) Namely: "the strength of giants, the skill of geniuses, and the wisdom of gods (unquantifiable)" Plus immunity to all diseases, long life (a hundred years or more according to folklore, which is less impressive than it used to be) and invulnerability to any physical injury save those inflicted with iron.

Presumably the iron-vulnerability is enough to keep the scenario from being "and Irish ubermenschen take over the world" but how will the world react to this? How will Ireland, and individuals whether Irish or not? What will change in the world?

[Batman]

Not to be a spoilsport but how are the strength of a giant or the skill of a genius any less unquantifiable than the others?

[AniThyng]

For a while there I thought this was going to be about the super-submarine from Full Metal Panic. Silly otaku me.

[Ahriman238]

Not to be a spoilsport but how are the strength of a giant or the skill of a genius any less unquantifiable than the others?

Alright, unquantifiable is a poor word choice there.

If I said just "all Irish people get superhuman strength" that doesn't give a lot of detail, but you understand what I mean, and we can probably talk about the consequences of this just fine. The same with "everyone involved becomes prodigiously talented at the few (I imagine three or four) arts/fields/games that most hold their interest." I say "everyone gains tremendous wisdom" and... what? Do we have a consensus definition of wisdom? Can we reasonably expect to arrive at one? What would a sudden gain in wisdom do to one's personality? I don't know. I'm open to discussing it if you are, but I'm not really expecting that talk to go anywhere.

For a while there I thought this was going to be about the super-submarine from Full Metal Panic. Silly otaku me.

I have no idea, it's not an anime I ever watched. Any good?

[AniThyng]

For a while there I thought this was going to be about the super-submarine from Full Metal Panic. Silly otaku me.

I have no idea, it's not an anime I ever watched. Any good?

Depends on if you like mecha and the usual anime conceits. It's one of the classics of the early 2000's era* and I'd recommend it to casual anime watchers without hesitation unless you are allergic to mecha, mercenary military organizations and some high school comedy in between.

The first episode had an airliner hijacked by north korea, and came out on or around 9/11. I an loathe to use tvtropisms like "harsher in hindsight" but given MH370 2014 again...yeah.

*holy crap the show is now almost a decade and a half old. my youth, where has it gone.... *sob*

[Raw Shark]

[snip] So on St. Paddy's day, every Irishman, and every person with a single Irish ancestor wakes up with the attributes the Tuatha De had before they became gods (less the unquantifiable magic.) Namely: "the strength of giants, the skill of geniuses, and the wisdom of gods (unquantifiable)" Plus immunity to all diseases, long life (a hundred years or more according to folklore, which is less impressive than it used to be) and invulnerability to any physical injury save those inflicted with iron.

Presumably the iron-vulnerability is enough to keep the scenario from being "and Irish ubermenschen take over the world" but how will the world react to this? How will Ireland, and individuals whether Irish or not? What will change in the world?

Well, Ireland won't be dragging down the EU's economy anymore, for starters. Iron-tipped bullets will probably come onto the market pretty quickly, but having nearly 100% of the population suddenly have "the skill of geniuses," never get sick, and be able to withstand most extreme environmental conditions will pretty much eliminate unemployment (even if they have to travel to find suitable work).

The USA and other areas with a large percentage, if not a majority, of the population who can claim "a single Irish ancestor" experience a two-tiered prosperity, with a new second class of citizens who are just not awesome and trucking along more-or-less as they were before except less-competitive in virtually all walks of life (not just employment - who wouldn't want to marry somebody whose blood guarantees your children will never get sick?). Massachusetts, in particular, becomes a regional powerhouse.

Eventually virtually all people have at least a single Irish ancestor, the ones who don't are regarded as cripples, and the standard for being good at stuff adjusts to the new norm.

[Broomstick]

If the "never gets sick" thing includes elimination of allergies I am going to be such a happy camper...!

[Raw Shark]

If the "never gets sick" thing includes elimination of allergies I am going to be such a happy camper...!

Seriously - I have allergies I didn't even know about out here. 1/4-Irish-just-because-it's-in-my-contract-for-being-a-Masshole for the epic win.

[Ahriman238]

True, after twenty or thirty generations we'd effectively eliminate disease, if not because everyone is magically immune, then because the available vectors are way, way down.

Perhaps I should ask, what happens in the short (say the first week or two) term when large numbers of people become superstrong and effectively invulnerable with one convenient weakness? What's the reaction by everyone else? I presume there are too many people effected for any serious attempt to contain or kill off the supermen, but I could be wrong and that doesn't mean no one will try. For that matter, what of the Irish themselves? I think everyone at some point has claimed to be a special people superior to others, what happens if this is one day objectively and demonstrably true? Are the Irish doomed to become Draka-lite?

What about the next 5 years or so? As more and more of the population proportionally becomes immune to nearly all harm but iron, will we see attempts to control that?

[Simon_Jester]

Aside from the entire population of Ireland, a significant fraction of the population of Britain and Scotland, Canada, Australia... And of course the US, where... I can't even guesstimate the percentage of the population that has at least one Irish ancestor.

First, expect some really horrible racist shit because the people who just got superhuman abilities are (with a relatively small number of exceptions, mostly American) white.

There is a brief period of ethnic-Irish mercenaries (and existing Army soldiers and so on) being in huge demand, which drops off sharply after people twig to the iron vulnerability and start making steel-jacketed bullets en masse.

The genius-level skills and 'wisdom' (Supernaturally good intuition? Exceptional judgment?) probably matter more in the long haul. The real determiners of success in the modern world are cunning, education, and social skills, not raw physical brawn. If you were a salesman, and you're now one of the world's greatest salesmen- which means you can sell people on damn near anything. If you were a carpenter you are now a great carpenter- and in demand for luxury furniture. Et cetera.

[Broomstick]

Given the number of slave masters and overseers of Irish heritage in the US pre-Civil War I expect a surprising percentage of "African Americans" will discover they have at least one Irish ancestor.

There were also a fair number of Irish who emigrated to Latin America as well. We'll have a lot of non-white folks in the Western hemisphere who discover they have Irish ancestry. Maybe not as many as the nominally white folks, but there will be more than people anticipate.

[Raw Shark]

Given the number of slave masters and overseers of Irish heritage in the US pre-Civil War I expect a surprising percentage of "African Americans" will discover they have at least one Irish ancestor.

Supporting Anecdote: I've known at least two people with more black grandparents than the President and stereotypically-Irish last names, let alone one drop of Irish blood from some mysterious, unknown ancestor.

There were also a fair number of Irish who emigrated to Latin America as well. We'll have a lot of non-white folks in the Western hemisphere who discover they have Irish ancestry. Maybe not as many as the nominally white folks, but there will be more than people anticipate.

Yeah, it's going to be a lot. Probably a much higher superbeing-to-normal ratio than most comic book settings. Tens of millions in the Western hemisphere, at least. Probably over a million just in New York City.

[Batman]

Not to be a spoilsport but how are the strength of a giant or the skill of a genius any less unquantifiable than the others?

Alright, unquantifiable is a poor word choice there.
If I said just "all Irish people get superhuman strength" that doesn't give a lot of detail, but you understand what I mean, and we can probably talk about the consequences of this just fine.

Remember where I come from. 'Superhuman' means merely that, 'better than any human can do' but how much better? There is no upper limit to 'superhuman' and I don't know beans about irish mythology so this could include beings that make Clark in sunbath supercharged mode look weak like a kitten by comparison. I do think 'can casually benchpress a planet' represents a whole different level of problem (and opportunities) than 'can barely lift a 20 ton truck'.

The same with "everyone involved becomes prodigiously talented at the few (I imagine three or four) arts/fields/games that most hold their interest." I say "everyone gains tremendous wisdom" and... what? Do we have a consensus definition of wisdom? Can we reasonably expect to arrive at one? What would a sudden gain in wisdom do to one's personality? I don't know. I'm open to discussing it if you are, but I'm not really expecting that talk to go anywhere.

Neither do I, but I don't think the two are directly comparable. Intelligence/wisdom/skill of a genius don't do you an ounce of good if the information to make use of it hasn't been developed yet. You can almost inevitably aid enormously in finding that information and rapidly making use of it once it is found, but that's it. If we drop Lex or me into ancient Greece without our knowledge of human history, we're fucked.
Drop Clark or Kara or JJ there, they still have the physical strength (and by extension resilience since you can't have superstrength without invulnerability if you're using pseudophysics) to ignore pretty much everything anybody could throw at them.

[Simon_Jester]

The same with "everyone involved becomes prodigiously talented at the few (I imagine three or four) arts/fields/games that most hold their interest." I say "everyone gains tremendous wisdom" and... what? Do we have a consensus definition of wisdom? Can we reasonably expect to arrive at one? What would a sudden gain in wisdom do to one's personality? I don't know. I'm open to discussing it if you are, but I'm not really expecting that talk to go anywhere.

Neither do I, but I don't think the two are directly comparable. Intelligence/wisdom/skill of a genius don't do you an ounce of good if the information to make use of it hasn't been developed yet. You can almost inevitably aid enormously in finding that information and rapidly making use of it once it is found, but that's it. If we drop Lex or me into ancient Greece without our knowledge of human history, we're fucked.
Drop Clark or Kara or JJ there, they still have the physical strength (and by extension resilience since you can't have superstrength without invulnerability if you're using pseudophysics) to ignore pretty much everything anybody could throw at them.

The flip side of this is that immense intelligence, cunning, and skill confer a competitive advantage in a society where you do know the rules.

Basically, if we grant this powerset to all Irish people, then the Irish corporate executives will be out-blarneying nearly everyone else, the Irish engineers will build the best stuff the fastest, the Irish bankers will make the best financial trades... everything that is most desirable will tend to go to the superhumanly skilled, clever, and wise Irish. Because they already enjoy all the advantages of knowing how to live in modern society, but will be able to put them to greater use.

[Metahive]

Aren't the Tuatha vulnerable to Christianity? As in, hurt by the sound of churchbells, shrink before crosses, can't stand mentions of God and the like? Wasn't that the reason they all left Ireland? Their German counterparts, the "Unterirdischen/Subterrenean" for sure were that way and that's why they went underground in the first place. If that's indeed their weakness, I'd think humanity would have no trouble cutting that tall poppy down.

[Broomstick]

Never heard of the Tuatha de Danann having that particular weakness before.

[Metahive]

Being weakened or scared by Christianity was quite a common thing in all the fairy folklore I read. I thought it applied to the Tuatha as well, explaining why they all left Ireland despite their superiority to humans.

[NecronLord]

Aren't the Tuatha vulnerable to Christianity? As in, hurt by the sound of churchbells, shrink before crosses, can't stand mentions of God and the like? Wasn't that the reason they all left Ireland? Their German counterparts, the "Unterirdischen/Subterrenean" for sure were that way and that's why they went underground in the first place. If that's indeed their weakness, I'd think humanity would have no trouble cutting that tall poppy down.

No, quite the opposite. A large number of them were converted into folk-saints. If anything, Christian worship would empower them.

[Metahive]

Ha, really? Then they definitely fared better than the fairies elsewhere.

So what then was the explanation of why there aren't any Tuatha around anymore? Where they destroyed in apocalyptic warfare?

[Ahriman238]

Ha, really? Then they definitely fared better than the fairies elsewhere.

So what then was the explanation of why there aren't any Tuatha around anymore? Where they destroyed in apocalyptic warfare?

Sort of. Another invasion (the Tuatha de weren't really native to Ireland either) this time by iron-wielding Milesians. The Tuatha de lost battle after battle before deciding it was easier to just live underground and come up occasionally for air, entertainment and wives. Then in the next mythic cycle they became gods with the notables (most especially Dagda, Morrigan and Lugh) being major deities. Then Christianity and they get collectively demoted to fairies.

Remember where I come from. 'Superhuman' means merely that, 'better than any human can do' but how much better? There is no upper limit to 'superhuman' and I don't know beans about irish mythology so this could include beings that make Clark in sunbath supercharged mode look weak like a kitten by comparison. I do think 'can casually benchpress a planet' represents a whole different level of problem (and opportunities) than 'can barely lift a 20 ton truck'.

Hard to say, because of mythic sources. For instance, Dagda could kill nine men with a single blow, but in some versions that's a property of his magic club and not his own strength. They'd have to be obviously stronger than other people, but I'm not really envisioning Hulk/Superman strength here. Let's say one man could lift an average-sized car if he did it carefully and carried it a short distance. Two men would be better, and could lift a truck.

Neither do I, but I don't think the two are directly comparable. Intelligence/wisdom/skill of a genius don't do you an ounce of good if the information to make use of it hasn't been developed yet. You can almost inevitably aid enormously in finding that information and rapidly making use of it once it is found, but that's it. If we drop Lex or me into ancient Greece without our knowledge of human history, we're fucked.

The skill part mostly refers to creative efforts. The Tuatha de were supposed to be peerless craftsman, arhitects, poets and musicians etc. And they had the Tolkein elf ability to make blatantly magical things, like airships or the Four Treasures, and insist they were merely excellent craftsmanship. But I figure that part really goes into the "magic we have no way to meaningfully debate."

[Broomstick]

Low birthrate, I think.

And they might not have died out, they may have just moved elsewhere. They allegedly started living underground, in sidhe, and time often ran differently in their realm so they may be, to use an SF term, still there but "out of phase" with our reality.

[Metahive]

So they do actually have something in common with the German Unterirdische. The latter however are less "elfy" and more like dwarfs (and in fact, that, "Zwerge", is what they're referred to most often when they aren't called "männlein" or "männchen") who are not only miners and tinkerers but also major magic users. Unfortunately for them, their VIPs, like Alberich and Laurin never became gods or heroes. Bummer.

[mr friendly guy]

I thought the Tuatha were defeated by Balor Evil Eye, lord of the Famorians. They were forced to live underground and became leprechauns or some such myth. It was a long time since I read that book on Irish folklore.

[Ahriman238]

I thought the Tuatha were defeated by Balor Evil Eye, lord of the Famorians. They were forced to live underground and became leprechauns or some such myth. It was a long time since I read that book on Irish folklore.

?

Nah, Lugh killed Balor pretty early on.

[NecronLord]

Quite. The Tuatha destroyed/defeated the Fomorians, and were in turn defeated by the Milesians (who won by, in part, having plentiful magic of their own, too, it's not just a 'cold iron = silver bullet' thing, the sons of Mil also defeat them by their own druidic powers in the book of Invasions).

Quantifiable feats that spring to mind is that they are able to summon spirits to inhabit the bodies of dead soldiers and make them fight on their behalf, and restore lost limbs both as metallic replacements and as flesh and blood.

I'll see if I can't dig up some quotes, if people are interested.