THE OotS Thread, Part IV.

[Simon_Jester]

Burlew also (sort of) talked about this some years ago:
http://www.giantitp.com/articles/rTKEiv ... 4H1Sn.html

Step 10: What are the villain's boundaries? There should be at least one thing the villain is not willing to do to achieve his goals. They may have a code of honor, or simply have a strong distaste for some kind of act. This detail will give your villain a realistic feel, as well as crossing off certain options that might be difficult for the heroes to eliminate through their actions. For example, the villain may be unwilling to traffic with demons, which helps you explain why he doesn't just summon a bunch of balors to do his dirty work.

[as an example of this he speaks of a villain he made for a campaign, the "Fire King."]

The Fire King was intensely loyal to his friends. Growing up as basically an outcast wherever he went, he was not about to throw away friendships over something as minor as world domination. Thus, he was not ever going to betray anyone who was within his inner circle of confidence, and he did not consider any of them expendable.

So if we accept Burlew's current argument and his past writings, there is compatibility there. When the chips are down, the Fire King will happily plot genocide and world conquest, but he will not betray a friend because his friends are important to him. He might be willing to lose a friend to pursue his plans (say, if one of his lifelong friends had a change of heart and told him to quit the world conquest scheme or they'd leave). But he wouldn't sell them out or expend them as part of the plan itself.

And thus, it is part of his nature to commit evil acts, but not to commit that particular evil act.

So how do we reconcile this with what Burlew said just now?
________________________

One possibility is that he's changed his mind, but he's a grown man of about forty, so I'd be surprised if he's changed that much in five years.

Another possibility is that he's making two separate arguments here, based on a point that is concealed by the nature of D&D evil.


On the one hand he's talking about Evil characters with scruples. On the other hand, he's talking about unscrupulous characters, who almost by definition are Evil in D&D. And we can point out that in D&D all unscrupulous characters are Evil, but not all Evil characters need be unscrupulous.

The Fire King is very much Evil, but he has scruples- there is at least one thing he won't do in pursuit of his long term goal. From the way Burlew wrote the article, it is strongly implied that even at the moment of maximum stress, the Fire King still wouldn't do that.


Tarquin, on the other hand, appears to have no scruples whatsoever. And in principle, from the first moment we knew he was Nale and Elan's father, we knew he had no scruples about the way he treated his family. Because he's willing to put a bounty on his own son, for reasons that honestly weren't all that compelling. Clearly, Tarquin was willing to expend his own son if the price was right.

And in that case, the fact that Tarquin is an unscrupulous son-of-a-bitch might very well leak out into the rest of his life, impacting how he treats his other son under other conditions.

In which case it might not follow that Burlew thinks all Evil characters are at best only capable of feigning affection. His point might well be interpreted as "a person who is willing to unscrupulously kill, is willing to do so at any time, even if not to do so to any person."

[Alkaloid]

Hell, Tarquin could be the Fire King here. He's consistently and honestly shared power with his friends and by and large treated them pretty well for an evil overlord. He's made deals they may not have liked, but he's upfront about it, acknowledged and respected that it caused them pain and he certainly values them as people much more than he does his children. Maybe he just doesn't think being his child is worth the same commitment as being his long time confidant and adventuring companion.

[Ted C]

This doesn't seem all that hard to resolve. Tarquin is clearly competent (he wouldn't have achieved the position he has if he were a total screw up), but he still has flaws. He clearly has an over-inflated sense of his own importance, and his friends know it and call him on it, which they can do because they are real friends.

His "berserk button", to use the TV Tropes term, is being made to look bad in public (his friends call him out in private). Nale and Elan are both flamboyantly defying him in front of his subordinates, and Tarquin consistently deals out disproportionate retribution for such insults.

[Simon_Jester]

Hell, Tarquin could be the Fire King here. He's consistently and honestly shared power with his friends and by and large treated them pretty well for an evil overlord. He's made deals they may not have liked, but he's upfront about it, acknowledged and respected that it caused them pain and he certainly values them as people much more than he does his children. Maybe he just doesn't think being his child is worth the same commitment as being his long time confidant and adventuring companion.

That's actually... scarily possible.

[Gaidin]

By all known and available evidence that's totally and completely true. The guy literally abandoned one child and all but let the other raise himself on his own into a sadist that committed acts in attempt to get his approval. He only started caring once the competition for 'heir to the empire' started.

[Ted C]

Hell, Tarquin could be the Fire King here. He's consistently and honestly shared power with his friends and by and large treated them pretty well for an evil overlord. He's made deals they may not have liked, but he's upfront about it, acknowledged and respected that it caused them pain and he certainly values them as people much more than he does his children. Maybe he just doesn't think being his child is worth the same commitment as being his long time confidant and adventuring companion.

That's actually... scarily possible.

There certainly seems to be some inspiration there.

[Irbis]

Laurin's biggest problem is that while she may be level 20 to V's 15, she's spent the day spamming portals willy-nilly, hit up that big AoE mindblast, and a dash of healing, so she's been spending power points like water going through a sieve. And while V's used a good few spells today I don't think the elf is nearly as tapped as Laurin is.

I saw someone calculate Laurin can easily have 350+ points and so far spent about 200-240. She might well have third to half points still, and unlike V can supply her best powers till the end, once V is out of 5th level spell slots it's over.

How long does he need to respell anyway? And is it an all or nothing deal? Can he say, half load up and then jump in the fray?

You technically can "half load" but it's so uneconomical it would be useless anyway.

[Simon_Jester]

Laurin's biggest problem is that while she may be level 20 to V's 15, she's spent the day spamming portals willy-nilly, hit up that big AoE mindblast, and a dash of healing, so she's been spending power points like water going through a sieve. And while V's used a good few spells today I don't think the elf is nearly as tapped as Laurin is.

I saw someone calculate Laurin can easily have 350+ points and so far spent about 200-240. She might well have third to half points still, and unlike V can supply her best powers till the end, once V is out of 5th level spell slots it's over.

On the other hand, V hasn't expended very many high level spells today, and may be able to shoot once per round for several rounds, in which case Laurin might actually run out of juice, or she might run into problems because she's being attacked by someone else along with V (Julio, say).

Plus, I suspect she is unlikely to fight to the death under the circumstances, though it's at least possible. So she wouldn't want to expend her last points of energy if that imperiled her ability to escape.

[Murazor]

On the other hand, V hasn't expended very many high level spells today, and may be able to shoot once per round for several rounds, in which case Laurin might actually run out of juice, or she might run into problems because she's being attacked by someone else along with V (Julio, say).

Unless V's spell slots recovered while he was visiting Hell (and there is no indication of this being the case), he has been burning his high level spells. Dude is level fifteen and his INT is pretty firmly rated at 23.

So...

Two level eight spells, one of them from his specialization. He has used Clenched Fist, so that leaves him with one level eight and probably not an evocation.
Three level seven spells, one being specialization bonus. He has used two, evocations both.
Five level six spells, one being specialization bonus, one being Int bonus. He has used four, three of them evocations.
Six level five spells. He has used four slots, so he has a couple left, including one evocation.
Six level four spells. He has used two.
Six level three spells. He has used five.

Although he isn't quite down to dregs yet, Varsuvius is running low at this point.

[Gaidin]

Starting from comic when?

[Murazor]

Starting from comic when?

836-837, just before the order goes to Windy Canyon.

It has been a loooong day for these guys.

[Irbis]

Just out of curiosity, who was it that told the story about how Tarquin was a tactical genius and the mastermind behind his party's plot? Was it…Tarquin?

If you bought into Tarquin's story that Tarquin was a competent chessmaster when all of the evidence in the comic points to him being a quasi-delusional control freak that needs to be reigned in by one of his allies half the time, that's on you. I gave you the evidence to see what he was, you just chose to believe his spin instead and then criticize me for not living up to it. The characterization is consistent all the way through—including the part where he talks himself up to be the central character in his group's history. But look at the way Laurin and Miron talk to him; does that sound like people who think he's the mastermind that got them to where they are? Or does it sound like how people talk to Elan? Why do you think that strip was even in there, except to reveal that Tarquin's version of his place in the group had been inflated by Tarquin?

What a load of nonsense. To sum it up: "how dare you not reach the same conclusions as I did by telepathically reading what I think about him from my brain!"

We bought T. words about chessmaster because maybe, just maybe, his plan worked. He managed to occupy region Burlew explicitly stated to be unconquerable by force. Reigned in by one of his allies? Where we see it pray tell? Because Malack shown no control on T. whatsoever (in fact it was T. pushing him to do things Malack didn't wanted, easily). Laurin and Miron? Gee, they only show up in last 5% of time we see T. at work, and we're supposed to shift out opinion on him 180 degrees because two spellcasters (most arrogant classes in D&D world) don't talk to melee guy with reverence? Despite profiting from a plan T. set up? I am sorry, I didn't heard either of them correcting T. it was their plan, not his.

If Burlew really wanted to make T. "Elan of his group" then showing Tarquin owning Order twice while not making the spellcasters hyper-competent was last thing he should have done. In fact, so far T. is by far most proficient of his group. Miron and Malack fell to trivial stuff that wouldn't even faze Tarquin, I am sorry, but what we're supposed to see is simply not there, IMHO.

But to be really sure I went back and looked. Check out this strip, where they do treat him like Elan? They go all "understood, sir", plainly showing he is on top. Maybe we took them for subordinates because they act like ones? All we see them disagree with is his focus on his personal story, which is easily explainable by them having no interest whatsoever in it.

[Straha]

This is a long post.

This isn't all or nothing. Being competent doesn't mean you don't have obsessions or exaggerate your capabilities. Tarquin's capable but he's always been a mouthy braggart with control issues. Every interaction with his actual comrades has shown that they have, to a certain extent, been indulging his pretensions.

It's more than that he's a mouthy braggart, and I don't think that his companions are indulging his pretensions as much as they're working with an equal and cutting deals. Think of 924 where his old comrades agree to go after the Order of the Stick. They clearly respect Tarquin, but the don't see him as their leader.

I think what Rich is hinting at, and why this confrontation is so long, is that the story of the Order of the Stick isn't a tale about a bunch of heroes making the world safe for all. It is, and has always been, a story about how we tell stories and how we weave storytelling into our own lives.

The big message here, with this fight, is an examination of the crux of storytelling: what makes a hero and what makes a villain.

Think through all of Burlew's big bad villains, they all imagine themselves as the protagonist. They are the one the story is about, they are the ones who matter, they are the ones who need to be paid attention to, and they are ones who will change the world. Xykon believes this to his very being and displays it with aplomb wherever he can. He is a story teller, he ratchets up suspense when he wants it (the reveal of the Monster in the original castle,) writes the plot lines of those around him, and even tries to pace out the suspense. Remember, when he and Roy fight over Azure city he tries to have Roy come back later because he's going to get bored, he needs the challenge, and won't Roy humor him and let them both have a properly epic showdown? Red Cloak sees himself as the saviour of all the Goblin races, the one who his people depend on, the hero to set things right. He also declares himself in control of Xykon, subtly, but definitely in control. For him he is the downtrodden underdog trying to restore justice to the world, and if there is a traditional Campbellian hero here it's him. Tarquin is, by far, the most self-aware about this. He knows that he is in a story, he is aware of the story as it is being written around him and everything he has done in the past two hundred strips has been to make sure that it is the right story, his story. He's grooming Elan now to be what he needs to be to make sure the story of Tarquin is told for generations to come, he retells his party's history as one designed to make Tarquin supreme, and even views Malack's plot for genocide as an aftermath of Tarquin's grand empire. He's not delusional, all of these things are true in their own way, it's just that he can't see it beyond his perspective. Even his dispatch of Nale, a self-styled protagonist if there ever was one, is done in this light. His final question to Nale is not 'What do you want?' but 'What do you want from me?'. When Nale makes it clear that he wants nothing from Tarquin, and instead views himself as having a separate story ("Malack was my problem, not yours!") Tarquin kills him. He knows he's his son, he loves him in his own way, but when Nale makes clear he doesn't want to be in the story being told he no longer counts for anything. The implacable hunt for Elan is all a part of this, Elan is trying to "Steer [my] whole story in another direction", if Tarquin is the protagonist then Elan must be made to 'accept his proper role'.

By contrast, the heroes (the Order et al.) don't view themselves as the protagonists, they don't shape the story, the story happens to them. They are the flotsam and jetsam in its waves. Roy has repeatedly stated that this is not what he'd like to be doing, and that the only reason he's here now is because if he didn't try to save the world no one else would. (Or, to go back to the start, that he had to fulfill the blood oath because no one else could.) Elan is tuned into the story and knows storytelling inside and out, but he also acts like he can never change the story. He can subvert it, he can defy it, he can see how it's going to play out, but he can never make the story a different one. This getting long, and I have much more to say, but I think that the most interesting things are how the evil on the side of the Order differs from the evil of Team Evil. Belkar, evil as they come, is kept in check by the people around him but his character building moment, his character genesis moment, is when he realizes that there is a story going on around him and that he needs to play a part in everyone else's story ('game') instead of making it his own. Even V, guilty of a genocide on unprecedented scales in the world, commits their atrocity not out of some desire to remake the world but out of a reactive responsibility. They must save their family, who is in mortal danger, they must save their party who have been separated by all sorts of circumstance, and they must save the world from those who would remake it in their own ideal. Unlike Malack who wants to bring something into the world V feels like they have no choice (or no real choice) and 'must succeed'.

The villains choose, the heroes respond. Which is why Tarquin and co. versus the Order is the climactic battle in a meta-sense. It's the battle between Tarquin trying to force his story onto others and the Order trying to get back to the story where they belong.

There's more to say, but this is long enough as it is and it's getting rather late, I hope this will suffice for now.

[Irbis]

It's more than that he's a mouthy braggart, and I don't think that his companions are indulging his pretensions as much as they're working with an equal and cutting deals. Think of 924 where his old comrades agree to go after the Order of the Stick. They clearly respect Tarquin, but the don't see him as their leader.

They cut deal with him because he is trying to drag them into his private matters. When it was about their grand plan, they all obeyed him, even Malack on Nale issue. Note that even Laurin doesn't ask him to do what she wants for her daughter, she asks for favour swapping - as it is her private matter too.

He's not delusional, all of these things are true in their own way, it's just that he can't see it beyond his perspective.

Its more than he sees them, it's just he doesn't care. Tarquin wants a grand tale for his family, Greenhilt is spoiling with it so he tries to remove him. He was willing to indulge him had Elan shown some initiative and took the mantle, alone or with Haley.

When Nale makes it clear that he wants nothing from Tarquin, and instead views himself as having a separate story ("Malack was my problem, not yours!") Tarquin kills him. He knows he's his son, he loves him in his own way, but when Nale makes clear he doesn't want to be in the story being told he no longer counts for anything.

I saw it as being pragmatic. Tarquin knows the other four will want Nale's blood, as in a sense Tarquin did too, and still was willing to shield him if only Nale had asked. I think "what you want from me" was final hint to own up to his deeds and beg for forgiveness or suffer the consequences. Tarquin didn't kill Nale when he ran away despite having means to do so, after all.

The villains choose, the heroes respond. Which is why Tarquin and co. versus the Order is the climactic battle in a meta-sense. It's the battle between Tarquin trying to force his story onto others and the Order trying to get back to the story where they belong.

I don't know, this is IMHO more of a power struggle over story control. If Order wanted to get back to the story, they could publicly appease Tarquin then go their own way. But no, they defy him because they just don't agree with villain-forced control at all. Tarquin's fault was in constantly moving goalposts, though, the whole "find NPC replacements" issue was dragging things way too far. Now they really have little common ground and one side needs to be decisively defeated.

I also am not sure if I agree with Roy being reactive. He drags the story multiple times in direction which Roy personally wants - by going along with Miko, convincing OotS to go with it repeatedly, by getting them to fight Xykon in the first place. The "unwilling hero" archetype doesn't mean much - when he is given opportunity to rethink his actions by Xykon, and withdraw, he doesn't do it - indicating by this point, yes, his earlier reservations don't matter anymore. He is now true protagonist, constantly trying to force the story away from villains.

[Imperial Overlord]

This is a long post.

This isn't all or nothing. Being competent doesn't mean you don't have obsessions or exaggerate your capabilities. Tarquin's capable but he's always been a mouthy braggart with control issues. Every interaction with his actual comrades has shown that they have, to a certain extent, been indulging his pretensions.

It's more than that he's a mouthy braggart, and I don't think that his companions are indulging his pretensions as much as they're working with an equal and cutting deals. Think of 924 where his old comrades agree to go after the Order of the Stick. They clearly respect Tarquin, but the don't see him as their leader.

Oh he's clearly a member of the group and an equal, but it's his insistence of being the master of the story that they indulge. They're all partners in the "take over the continent plot", but Malack is clearly letting Tarquin run the show in their corner of the world, Miron's not at all interested in Tarquin's obsessions, and Lauren's prepared to indulge them if she gets what she wants.

You're quite right in that all the villains perceive themselves as leading characters, which is one of the reasons the characterization is so good. Everyone sees themselves as the leading character of their own life. Tarquin's position is particularly meta, an antagonist trying to bend the story to become the protagonist, and it's not surprising that his character flaws are linked to those particular qualities. It's also not surprising as his life falls apart, that this belief is being shattered along with all the other loses he's suffering.

I have to disagree with you about the conflict regarding action versus reaction and the nature of heroes and villians. It's certainly present, but its also a traditional story telling method used with these kinds of stories. I think you reading more into it than is present. Certainly V's fall into evil, a reactionary element of the story, does not support the thesis.

[Simon_Jester]

Starting from comic when?

836-837, just before the order goes to Windy Canyon.

It has been a loooong day for these guys.

Is it clear that the party hasn't rested since entering Windy Canyon?

[Gaidin]

If the party has, V hasn't in a fashion as to restore spells.

[Simon_Jester]

Er... what I mean is, how do we know that? It's unclear to me how much time they spent searching the canyon.

[Gaidin]

There's usually a context of something being 'over', or the group interpreting something to be over, extended campaigns aside. The best example is the latest comic having Durkon asking for that dark place to meditate. Of course, Tarquin ruined that. Ever since Windy Canyon nothing's been 'over' as far as what the group has tried to do. Gone are the days of the beginning of the comic where they would go 'Yup, we've cleared this level, time to rest'.

[Murazor]

Er... what I mean is, how do we know that? It's unclear to me how much time they spent searching the canyon.

The canyon is largely irrelevant.

Prior to finding the hidden pyramid, the only spell V is noted to have used was a flight spell of some kind (probably overland flight). Everything else has been after finding the pyramid.

[Simon_Jester]

So when did he cast all those other spells? I'm confused.

[PainRack]

That was only 13 pages ago. Out of 200. Hence why reducing Tarquin from rational mastermind to ranting lunatic comes off poorly.

At least Painrack's theory that his collapse was only due to the death of his son is consistent with what we've seen, unlike Rich's decision that Tarquin has always been a fuckup.

Let's be fair. Rich interpretation doesn't change anything. Indeed, the fact that he's a control freak with delusional qualities only plays further into the breakdown theory.

Also, the thread in question was asking about the rapid change in Tarquin.

I don't see one. He was always a control freak, with his manipulation of the throne and politics. He's losing control now. That loss of control resulted in the death of his best friend, and him killing his son. Throw in guilt. Throw in Elan as 'salvation redemption'...... and fail.

Remember that said 'salvation redemption' was his overall goal, linked into his mythos when he realised his son Elan, the hero could be the hero that accomplished his legend, something he worked on for decades.

The fixation isn't..... unusual.

Its...... interesting how Simon pointed out that Nale is also thus throwing Tarquin narrative out of whack. We could also work in themes of how evil is inherently self destructive into this........


Its not THAT bad as theme goes. The only barriers might be the fact that its a webcomic, which probably causes problems with protraying the story.

[Ahriman238]

Fine. Since they entered the canyon:

Overland Flight (presumably) Greater Dispel Magic (839)

V is separated from the group, the Linear Guild ambushes.

Passwall, Quickened Expeditious Retreat (857)

Durkon Dies while V. is still wallowing in guilt in the hidden passageway.

Bugsby's Hand, knocking (896)

Immediately after, V. is pulled to hell. Emerging in 919.

Stoneskin, Fireball, Wall of Fire, Protection from Arrows (#919) Lightning Bolt (#920) Chain Lightning (#921) Unnamed Evocation, looks like Scorching Ray (#923) Hold Monster (#925) Lightning Bolt (#926) and Prismatic Spray (#927) followed by Disintegrate (#928) the Hand again (932) and once more just now (#934)

18 spell slots consumed in total. Probably more than half of V's total load, since they aren't optimized.

Plus that's what, a couple of second level spells, 3 level 3 spells, 2 4th level, 4 5th, 3 6th, and whatever level the Hand spell is at? V hasn't touched his/her highest level slots and has at least one uncast spell (disregarding specialty slots) in every level but fifth.

[Murazor]

Fine. Since they entered the canyon:

Overland Flight (presumably) Greater Dispel Magic (839)

V is separated from the group, the Linear Guild ambushes.

Passwall, Quickened Expeditious Retreat (857)

Durkon Dies while V. is still wallowing in guilt in the hidden passageway.

Bugsby's Hand, knocking (896)

Immediately after, V. is pulled to hell. Emerging in 919.

Stoneskin, Fireball, Wall of Fire, Protection from Arrows (#919) Lightning Bolt (#920) Chain Lightning (#921) Unnamed Evocation, looks like Scorching Ray (#923) Hold Monster (#925) Lightning Bolt (#926) and Prismatic Spray (#927) followed by Disintegrate (#928) the Hand again (932) and once more just now (#934)

18 spell slots consumed in total. Probably more than half of V's total load, since they aren't optimized.

Plus that's what, a couple of second level spells, 3 level 3 spells, 2 4th level, 4 5th, 3 6th, and whatever level the Hand spell is at? V hasn't touched his/her highest level slots and has at least one uncast spell (disregarding specialty slots) in every level but fifth.

The hand are different spells and very high level spells, at that.

8th Bugbsy's clenched fist (896, specialist), -
7th Bugsby's grasping hand (932), prismatic spray (927, specialist), -
6th chain lightning (921, specialist), disintegrate (928), forceful hand (934)*, greater dispel magic (839), -
5th hold monster (925), overland flight (837), passwall (857), quickened expeditious retreat (857), - , - (specialist)
4th stoneskin (919), wall of fire (919, specialist), - , - , - , -
3rd fireball (919, specialist), fly (921), lightning bolt (920), lightning bolt (923), lightning bolt (926), -
2nd protection from arrows (919), scorching ray (923, specialist), - , - , - , - , -
1st - , - , - , - , - , - , - (specialist)

[Rogue 9]

Two level eight spells, one of them from his specialization. He has used Clenched Fist, so that leaves him with one level eight and probably not an evocation.

No, he used forceful hand, a 6th level spell. I mean, it might have been clenched fist, but if so he was deliberately using it for a purpose the lower-level spell could accomplish.