My Little Pony Season 4 (starts 11/23/2013)

[Crossroads Inc.]

Anyone else watch the new EP yet?

Was rather impressed by it since it was done by a brand new writer to the show.
Again I like that they seem to be continuing a central theme for this season (the Mystery of the Magic Box) even if they didn't really find anything new. For the most part it felt like a good silly 'Scooby Doo' type ep, with lots of fake scares and secret passages and such.
Also I find it amusing that the reason FOR just so many secret passages and levels and rooms, seems to have been for Young Luna's entertainment (Dawwww)

That Library, I hope they make references to that in the future.. Twilight has often remarked about "reading every book in Ponyville" So the new 'Old' Library gives the writers an excuse to add in things that can still surprise her.
"What is THAT? I Never knew about that before? OH! it talks about it in a book in the old castle library!"
Sort of thing.

Also, I hope that there may be more going back there. With Luna back and the sisters re-united, there shouldn't be any reason why it should be left abandoned. As a history buff, such a castle would be a HUGE find since it would seem not to have been looted.
Halls of period arms and Armor.
Huge hanging tapestries.
A VAST ancient Library.
AND A functioning pipe organ.

That place has it going ON!

[Kuja]

My Little Pony: Season 4, episode 3: Castle Mania

"And what is a mare? A miserable little pile of secrets! But enough talk, have at you!"

Holy shit, actual episode-to-episode continuity. Complete with foreshadowing. Also holy crap but that moment where Fluttershy saw the column falling on "Angel" was dark as hell. Rarity still gets the best lines.

I liked it.

[RogueIce]

Essentially, we don't know that they even can recover the Elements now.

Well, if the writers wanted to convey that, maybe they shouldn't show us Celestia/Luna simply grabbing the elements from the slots they rest in? It really looks like anyone can just pull them out.

Well Celestia did "activate" the tree first by using some magic on the star shape. And it looks like the Element of Magic/Friendship does rest inside the tree rather than on top, though the way it was animated going back in could go either way.

*shrug* Could just be Royal Edict now to let the Tree of Harmony restore itself. They'll make do with what they have. I mean, Celestia did say there was a reason they would need Discord's magic, hence her wanting him reformed. Maybe she knew it was just a matter of time before they'd have to return the Elements so was trying to get ready for that. Also could explain why she was pushing for Princess Twilight, even though Luna didn't think she was ready.

But Celestia didn't know about the Seeds of Discord which pushed up the time table, also taking her out of the picture. Luckily the plans she set in motion beforehand were enough to carry the day.

[Irbis]

Two more observations about season opener, that is, flashbacks:

A) Luna and Celestia mane colors in S1 history book are different. It was heavily implied they looked like that before manipulating them to be all glowy and magical - shouldn't they look like that in flashback? Ditto for sharp teeth Nightmare Moon has, it was added in that awful Halloween twist episode, she didn't have them in S1.

B) Luna in flashback does the whole CANTERLOT VOICE thing. Except Celestia should have done it too in the past - but instead she speaks normally, ditto for NM. It's like flashback copied current Celestia/NM, and the writer simply forgot about that running gag.

You know, for a season that is supposed to have continuity, it looks like writer took cursory glance on latest drawings instead of remembering all the little canon revelations they did in meantime. It's kind of like that old SW comic that had young Vader in clone wars

[Crazedwraith]

For A) at least all that means is that the silly fanon of pink haired young Celestia turned out to be just that: fanon. The creators don't have to stay consistent with something they never showed or said. What evidence was there? The book's drawings? Which were always obviously simplified artist's impressions of events.

[Irbis]

For A) at least all that means is that the silly fanon of pink haired young Celestia turned out to be just that: fanon. The creators don't have to stay consistent with something they never showed or said. What evidence was there? The book's drawings? Which were always obviously simplified artist's impressions of events.

Except that book proved to be remarkably accurate even about future events, unlike Celestia, and it had nailed colors of S1 Luna perfectly unlike other sources. IMHO it's canon until proven otherwise.

[RogueIce]

This?



I'm with Crazedwraith on this one, that pink haired Celestia is fanon and a simplified artist impression. If you're going to take that literally, then Celestia had pink wings which was never true in S1 and would go against the design of every other Pegasus we've seen whose wing color is the same as their body. Even Luna's wings are a different color in that representation.

Furthermore, look more closely at their tails. See those lines in Celestia's tail and the curly things in Luna's? I would say that's a "ye olden times" artist impression of Celestia's wavys and Luna's sparklies. They just went really simplistic on the manes, but they match up the style of every regular pony's manes later on when they're shown. I suppose you could wonder why they chose pink as her representative color since none of Celestia's rainbow wavy colors are especially dominant, but my theory is that the blues and greens in her mane and tail would've been too similar to Luna so the artist chose pink to make her stand out.

The only real in-show evidence for Pink Hair Celestia was Luna at the end of the premiere, which only indicates that at some point in their lives, maybe, they had "normal" manes and tails. But we don't know when that would've been or how old they are. Perhaps if Cadance or Twilight ever get magic glowy manes, but that remains to be seen. Besides which, the pink, as I said, isn't even dominant within Celestia's waves, so why assume that instead of the blues or greens also present?

[Crazedwraith]

Of course its still possible Celestia had a single tone mane when she was filly, the same physical age we saw Luna emerge in the pilot but I think its clear the glitzy manes just came with maturity rather than a link with the elements or whatever.

[Irbis]

If you're going to take that literally, then Celestia had pink wings which was never true in S1 and would go against the design of every other Pegasus we've seen whose wing color is the same as their body.

You were saying?

Also, even if wings are stylized, doesn't mean hair color is.

Furthermore, look more closely at their tails. See those lines in Celestia's tail and the curly things in Luna's?

S3 made canon that old nobility went quite far in hairdressing. Shape change means nothing in this case.

I would say that's a "ye olden times" artist impression of Celestia's wavys and Luna's sparklies.

Eh, if the artist got Luna with 100% accuracy, it's IMHO far more likely he also got Celestia than not.

Perhaps if Cadance or Twilight ever get magic glowy manes, but that remains to be seen. Besides which, the pink, as I said, isn't even dominant within Celestia's waves, so why assume that instead of the blues or greens also present?

I think Cadance pre-horn also used to have only one color, but I'd need to re-read the background story if I didn't misremembered some fanon instead so don't quote me on that yet.

[RogueIce]

You were saying?

Okay fine, you found one example. It has nothing to do with Celestia though, who clearly has all white wings.

Also, even if wings are stylized, doesn't mean hair color is.

Their entire design is stylized, why do you assume their hair and only their hair is exempt?

Eh, if the artist got Luna with 100% accuracy, it's IMHO far more likely he also got Celestia than not.

But it's not 100% accuracy. Her mane is not even close to being right, and is the generic curly hair of every other mane. And those designs on her tail would indicate a look more similar to Pinkie Pie, not the straight lines of hair she actually had.

Anyway, even if we grant that at some point Celestia had regular pink hair, there's no reason to believe it was during the time of Discord instead of some earlier point.

I think Cadance pre-horn also used to have only one color, but I'd need to re-read the background story if I didn't misremembered some fanon instead so don't quote me on that yet.

She was multi-colored although her wings didn't have that purple highlight yet.

[Irbis]

Okay fine, you found one example. It has nothing to do with Celestia though, who clearly has all white wings.

Hey, at least it was relevant species example

Also, we don't know why Cadance colors are different. Maybe it's just a dye used by wealthy? That would explain why villager ponies don't use it, why young Cadance didn't and why Celestia did once.

Their entire design is stylized, why do you assume their hair and only their hair is exempt?

Because regardless of stylization it got colors right on the samples we could observe so far?

I don't know, if I were trying to simplify Celestia's look obvious course would be to base it on her very similar teal/seagreen colors taking 2/3 of hair width, than on minority, clashing pink - unless artist had very good reason for picking it. Like it being original color.

And those designs on her tail would indicate a look more similar to Pinkie Pie, not the straight lines of hair she actually had.

The same Pinkie that can go from spirals to straight lines in seconds depending only on mood?

If you can do this with hair then Luna's tiny look changes are trivial.

She was multi-colored although her wings didn't have that purple highlight yet.

I mean before she became winged unicorn. She used to be just a pegasus.

[RogueIce]

Because regardless of stylization it got colors right on the samples we could observe so far?

I don't know, if I were trying to simplify Celestia's look obvious course would be to base it on her very similar teal/seagreen colors taking 2/3 of hair width, than on minority, clashing pink - unless artist had very good reason for picking it. Like it being original color.

There's one sample, of a de-powered Luna at the end of the episode. And that's what she was: de-powered. When we next see her, she's back to glowy hair alicorn Princess.

And given that the two sisters were solo-ing the whole sun and moon thing back then, I would say it's a good bet they had their full magical powers back then, glowing hair and all.

Why this artist chose to represent them like that? Who knows? Maybe they just didn't go for realism in their art back then. But considering this is a clearly stylized and simplistic pictoral representation of events, I'm going to say that the actual vision we got is more accurate than a book written after the fact and with unknown motivations for portraying the art style the way they did.

Basically it's tenuous "evidence" at best, and not even consistent with itself. Go look at the scene where you've got Celestia and Luna circling like a Yin-Yang, and now Celestia has those curlies in her tail rather than the faint straight lines of her other depictions. And if you want to get nitpicky, the final shot of her standing forward with her wings spread and the sun and moon on either side has that tiny lock of her hair showing as blue.

The same Pinkie that can go from spirals to straight lines in seconds depending only on mood?

If you can do this with hair then Luna's tiny look changes are trivial.

I'm not talking about the mechanics of Pinkie's hair, she just happened to be the most convenient example of a curly-tailed Pony.

As far as changing styles can go, clearly they can, that's not in dispute. But this is a stylized representation of Luna, which indicated curly tail, but the only example we have of her plain blue hair is quite the opposite, is it not?

But then the artist wasn't even consistent with Celestia's tail as noted above, so go figure.

In the end, I'm trusting the magical vision of the past than some stylized story book. It's not like Discord made any comments about how Celestia looked different after all those years, after all.

I mean before she became winged unicorn. She used to be just a pegasus.

I don't remember the show mentioning this at all. Are you sure that's not some fanon you picked up along the way?

[Ralin]

I mean before she became winged unicorn. She used to be just a pegasus.

I don't remember the show mentioning this at all. Are you sure that's not some fanon you picked up along the way?

Originally Cadance was intended to be an unicorn and the decision to make her an alicorn came later, according to Lauren Faust. I've never heard anything about her having been a pegasus at one point, fanon or otherwise.

[Irbis]

There's one sample, of a de-powered Luna at the end of the episode. And that's what she was: de-powered.

And yet, the artist got all the details right. He also got the Nightmare Moon depiction right, down to tiniest detail, like reptile eyes.

And given that the two sisters were solo-ing the whole sun and moon thing back then, I would say it's a good bet they had their full magical powers back then, glowing hair and all.

The book shows us battle scene of Celestia vs NM - the same we saw in flashback. Still pink hair on much less stylized visage.

I'm going to say that the actual vision we got is more accurate than a book written after the fact and with unknown motivations for portraying the art style the way they did.

The book that wasn't wrong about anything vs visions produced by creepy, evil magic, visions encouraged by Discord twice (complete with him having a laugh on the horror of Mane 5 after seeing TS reaction).

I don't know, to me it was heavily implied to be about as reliable what Palpatine would say, even if he happened to not use creepy Sith magic at the time.

Basically it's tenuous "evidence" at best, and not even consistent with itself. Go look at the scene where you've got Celestia and Luna circling like a Yin-Yang, and now Celestia has those curlies in her tail rather than the faint straight lines of her other depictions.

Easily explained by comb and fashion changes? If anything, artist not being consistent points that he is depicting actual, real changing look, not trying to produce stylized image.

And if you want to get nitpicky, the final shot of her standing forward with her wings spread and the sun and moon on either side has that tiny lock of her hair showing as blue.

She is also visibly older, and as above - it reinforces the images being accurate, if anything. If he can draw accurate hair, it means there was big reason to not do it previously. For one, being inaccurate then.

In the end, I'm trusting the magical vision of the past than some stylized story book.

Magical vision produced under influence of potentially malicious being by someone who can't use or comprehend magic or prophecy book that turned out to be 100% accurate about future?

Hmm, tough choice.

It's not like Discord made any comments about how Celestia looked different after all those years, after all.

He also failed to notice Mane 6 are now brightly colored and not Discord-grey anymore so his skills in that regard are rather dubious.

I don't remember the show mentioning this at all. Are you sure that's not some fanon you picked up along the way?

That's kinda official looking fanon, then

And before anyone goes about children books, show is also targeted at children and the show writers were consultants at that one.

Originally Cadance was intended to be an unicorn and the decision to make her an alicorn came later, according to Lauren Faust. I've never heard anything about her having been a pegasus at one point, fanon or otherwise.

Here.

[RogueIce]

Bah, blasted tie-in material. But whatever.

As far as the hair thing, let's just agree to disagree on that. In the end it's about what makes us happy with the show, I think. And if we must analyze it, well, how's this:

Twilight has only ever seen Celestia with her glowy hair, and the majority of her interactions with Luna have also been with her glowy hair (at least from what we've seen in the show) so her vision is showing the history, but the appearance of the sisters is drawn from her visions of what they look like, if that makes sense. Could also explain Nightmare Moon's vampire teeth, if the NMM mythology remains more prominent in Twilight's mind than her actual, but very brief, interaction with NMM herself.

EDIT: If you want the OOC reason, I imagine it's as simple as not wanting to create a whole new character model for Celestia to only be used once. They did create the other version of Luna but may not have upgraded it or whatever to the clearly increased level of their current animation. Assuming that's even an issue, I don't know enough about the technical process to say. Maybe they also just didn't want Luna to look 'inferior' to Celestia as well.

[Crazedwraith]

Yeah, I'll go with the agree to disagree or whatever. But I will point out that if we accept the premiere was stylised, then both episodes can easily be considered canon but if you accept the premiere as literal truth you've got the through those episodes. I prefer to keep as much canon as possible. Now,I've actually just watched the two parter and can now talk the other thing you were mentioning Irbis.

B) Luna in flashback does the whole CANTERLOT VOICE thing. Except Celestia should have done it too in the past - but instead she speaks normally, ditto for NM. It's like flashback copied current Celestia/NM, and the writer simply forgot about that running gag.

I didn't really hear her doing 'the Canterlot Voice' in this episode. She was shouting before becoming Nightmare Moon but that was just her being angry. As for Celestia the CV was explicitly stated for being traditional when addressing subjects, they didn't address their subjects at any point in the flashbacks, just Discord and each other so it wasn't used.

But that scene did raise some questions to me. While technically it followed the narrative laid down in the pilot. Celestia pleading was just one line before she went straight to the elements. Of course she did take a horn beam to the chest at that point. Still the whole Nightmare Moon incident seems to have left a very big mark on Equestria's consciousness considering it lasted all of two minutes and she didn't seem to do much terrorising of the population.

--

Anyway on the whole the episode felt a little so-so to me. It was nice to see Twilight struggling with her royal duties and her wings but the friendship lesson and Discord's presence felt a little forced. The 'go home Twilight' was very forced. Still the animation for Celestia and Nightmare Moon's aerial battle and the main six verse the fly trap plants was very impressive.

[Bedlam]

Yeah, I'll go with the agree to disagree or whatever. But I will point out that if we accept the premiere was stylised, then both episodes can easily be considered canon but if you accept the premiere as literal truth you've got the through those episodes. I prefer to keep as much canon as possible. Now,I've actually just watched the two parter and can now talk the other thing you were mentioning Irbis.

B) Luna in flashback does the whole CANTERLOT VOICE thing. Except Celestia should have done it too in the past - but instead she speaks normally, ditto for NM. It's like flashback copied current Celestia/NM, and the writer simply forgot about that running gag.

I didn't really hear her doing 'the Canterlot Voice' in this episode. She was shouting before becoming Nightmare Moon but that was just her being angry. As for Celestia the CV was explicitly stated for being traditional when addressing subjects, they didn't address their subjects at any point in the flashbacks, just Discord and each other so it wasn't used.

But that scene did raise some questions to me. While technically it followed the narrative laid down in the pilot. Celestia pleading was just one line before she went straight to the elements. Of course she did take a horn beam to the chest at that point. Still the whole Nightmare Moon incident seems to have left a very big mark on Equestria's consciousness considering it lasted all of two minutes and she didn't seem to do much terrorising of the population.


--

Anyway on the whole the episode felt a little so-so to me. It was nice to see Twilight struggling with her royal duties and her wings but the friendship lesson and Discord's presence felt a little forced. The 'go home Twilight' was very forced. Still the animation for Celestia and Nightmare Moon's aerial battle and the main six verse the fly trap plants was very impressive.

I suppose it might depend how the flash back magic potion works if it basically transports your view back in time and you see exactly what happens, or if some external force or your own subconscious gives you some sort of edited highlights. As the whole thing was a long term Discord plan its possible he was directly creating the visions and the potion didn't do anything, although that's probably a bit far fetched.

[Irbis]

As far as the hair thing, let's just agree to disagree on that. In the end it's about what makes us happy with the show, I think. And if we must analyze it, well, how's this:

Twilight has only ever seen Celestia with her glowy hair, and the majority of her interactions with Luna have also been with her glowy hair (at least from what we've seen in the show) so her vision is showing the history, but the appearance of the sisters is drawn from her visions of what they look like, if that makes sense. Could also explain Nightmare Moon's vampire teeth, if the NMM mythology remains more prominent in Twilight's mind than her actual, but very brief, interaction with NMM herself.

EDIT: If you want the OOC reason, I imagine it's as simple as not wanting to create a whole new character model for Celestia to only be used once. They did create the other version of Luna but may not have upgraded it or whatever to the clearly increased level of their current animation. Assuming that's even an issue, I don't know enough about the technical process to say. Maybe they also just didn't want Luna to look 'inferior' to Celestia as well.

Well, I wouldn't have any problems with vision differing had the writer didn't cram it into episode by cutting all inconvenient elements instead of introducing time skips. I'd agree with you the look could be explained by how Twilight remembered them, but there also remains the issue of the canon confrontation being (until now) Luna refusing to lower the moon after night ended and threatening eternal night - in vision she raises it instead and there is no mention of threats, only sudden, completely unexplained "I must destroy you!".

Had it been 1 or 2 issues, I could overlook them, but vision changes virtually everything without word of explanation - and the worst thing is, there is no reason whatsoever for it to be in the episode. It didn't offer anything relevant to the plot, the only in-universe reason I could think of is Discord trying to torment Mane 6 by giving Twilight images of wounded Celestia. Writers could just skip to Discord confrontation and nothing would change.

The animators not wanting to make a new model is valid, but there is already one pink-maned white Luna recolor, pony dubbed Fleur - they could base it on this if nothing else. That would also make them equal by both looking young and make Nightmare Moon more terrifying by being larger of the two. I guess I am just sad important event was wasted on offhand ill-fitting scene, is all.

[Irbis]

So, a few things that bugged me on Episode 3.

First, it is implied the library in the castle contains many books with knowledge you can't find anywhere else, even in current castle. Except... If these books were so valuable, why no one looted them? Why Celestia didn't take them to Canterlot? Did she note the issue right next to 'leave elements lying in mud' in 'things to do a millennium later' organizer?

Ok, never mind the books. What bugs me is that given whole library Twilight latched to only book in there that is 100% guaranteed to not contain a solution. Oh, and is a gross violation of privacy at the same time. You say you finished these friendship studies? Where, at NSA elementary school?

Two, episode was full of disjointed plot points that went nowhere. We see weird spiders, Fluttershy mentions there is season for them and that they are supposed to be dangerous - then the next instant they vanish from the plot. Rarity needs Fluttershy to lift things - wasn't she supposed to have superior telekinesis skills? She wants to copy designs - couldn't she just bring a notebook and pencil instead? And why everyone is suddenly organizing mass trips to a place described as extraordinarily dangerous without even tiny hint of fear when in last 3 seasons mere hint of entering the forest sent everyone into panic, and that was before Discord made the place even worse last episode?

Overall, I felt the need to have all 6 in castle at the same time was a bit contrived and if we cut Rarity/Fluttershy bit giving spare time to other 4 exploring the castle the episode would have lost its weakest elements and would make Pinkie reveal in the end not completely obvious. It's nice the writers go for continuity, but the end result is half a Scooby Doo gag slice of life episode, half of arc one, and the halves seem to barely fit together, sadly...

One thing of note is male winged unicorn statue in the beginning, and the fact that all the plate armors we see were obviously made for unicorns. Which for some reason I can't fathom have armoured tails, too. One more proof who is the real nobility and ruling caste?

Oh, and what was up with the hall of legs? Luna having 'off with his hoof!' streak? Would explain Nightmare Moon and dark magic bit neatly. Plus, princesses ordering to make a trap toy castle made just for them - Equestria's finances seem to be in good hands indeed!

Finally, was the thing on the end Zecora (seeing animation copied her eyes) or a real ghost? If Zecora, who after all was the only one with reason to be there, is that a hint she might be evil, and the 'alicorn evil magic' bit was a lie?

[LadyTevar]

Episode Four, and it's Rainbow Dash to the rescue!!

Or not. I had several "don't just stand there, Do Something!" moments as the Mane Six met J.K. Yearling. Who's the hero here, anyway? Spoiler

Daring Do, of course! I loved it, she's REAL! And so are her arch-enemies!
Rainbow Dash and Twilight Star discussing past novels to figure out what to do was a great touch. "Hello, in book (x) he did this!" "yes, but she stopped him in the next book doing this." "But if he gets those rings, it cancels what she did!"

However, as someone who's had Dash's "OMG-I'm-Your-Biggest-Fan" moments (and totally embarrassed myself too), I felt for her. Especially when she felt like all was lost. Still, it ended with Rainbow Dash on the cover of a Book! Pith Helmet and All!

[Kuja]

I have mixed feelings about this episode. Although I liked the basic plot and enjoyed the Indiana Jones sendups, this is the second time MLPs created an episode about meeting new people where the message kind of boils down to something rather uncomfortably close to "stalk them until they love you." I don't think it's quite as egregious here as it was in the episode with Cranky I think RD's journal entry could have been worded much better than it was. As it is it comes across as a bit of "yeah, I knew better than her the whole time" and more or less drops the whole 'don't put people on a pedestal' moral for RD and instead writes a 'trust other people' moral for Daring.

Maybe MLP writers just have boundary issues.

Still, it ended with Rainbow Dash on the cover of a Book! Pith Helmet and All!

Actually she's wearing Short Round's cap and bag, something that made me laugh like a goddamn loon imagining Dash's reaction when she finds out she's the mouthy sidekick.



"YOU SAY TO STAND AGAINST THE WALL! I LISTEN TO WHAT YOU SAY! NOT MY FAULT!"

[RogueIce]

So they've officially released a soundtrack now. Hooray!

Looks like only season 1 and 2 songs thus far. I imagine if this sells well we'll see more. I hope the extended version of "I've Got to Find a Way" that Daniel Ingram said exists will be released. That remains my favorite song so far from the show.

At least until whenever Luna gets a song.

[RogueIce]

I would like to formally announce that I am an Apple to the core. Thank you.

In other words, this episode rocked my socks. Also, season 5 has been confirmed according to Equestria Daily! My day just got 20% cooler.

[Irbis]

New writer doing better job than most of the current ones and not only not making Pinkie and Granny cheap onedimensional jokes, but making even big family argument look good? What happened?

I must say Manehattan song really grown to me ever since last episode.

[Crazedwraith]

So I caught up with Season 4 (and Equestria Girls), I'd seen the first three episodes closer to when they air.

I don't think I'll surprise anyone by saying the Scootaloo episode has been the best so far. And they actually sort of addressed/clarified that Scootaloo really should be a stronger flier by now (highlighted by some of class mate zooming about in the episode) and of course they had the obvious moral that it doesn't matter because she's all kind of awesome any way. And triumphant reprisal to mad cross-country-faster-than-a-train scootering skillz. The only weak points were the slightly rushed break up of the CMC and the fact that they have to go all the way to the crystal empire to judge who will carry the ponyville flag? couldn't harshwinny just have stayed in town to judge? but otoh mad cross-country-scooter skillz. The other ones have been a mixed bag but decent enough I guess, anyone else noticing a strong up surge in the number of songs they've been doing?

Equestria Girls I think managed to hold my interest the whole way through mainly on the novelty of the humanised ponies.

As for the latest episode. Again, harmless, fun. The music was good but it did seem to lack a certain... punch. The central 'pinkie is related to apples' thing felt kind of flat especially since Pinkie and the mane six have been considering honourary apples since early season 2 at least.