Sauron in Westeros

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Tiriol
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Sauron in Westeros

Post by Tiriol »

I didn't find anything like this, so I figured I'd make a new thread...

Sauron has been defeated by the Last Alliance and now, after thousand years of dark sleep, he awakens and gets a physical form again. But this time it's not Middle-earth. For some cosmic randomness, Sauron has been transported from Arda straight to the world of Westeros. And as such, Sauron awakens in his new form (with his power intact) in Westeros (the Seven Kingdoms, to be precise) just after the Hand of the King, Jon Arryn, has met his untimely death.

However, the Ring is part of Sauron - much of his power was bound to the Ring and as such it has also been transported to Westeros, it's current location unknown (somewhere under the sea, maybe). But Sauron can feel its presence, or rather knows that the Ring still exists. And there's a world around him in a sorry state of contemptible disarray ruled by a fat drunkard. And everyone keeps saying that winter is coming.

What are the results of this "here there be Dark Lord" cosmic event for Westeros and Sauron himself?
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Simon_Jester »

His obvious strategy would be, essentially to repeat his actions in Numenor. In this case, it would go a lot faster because the people he's dealing with are more corrupt. He'd have noblemen lining up to become Ringwraiths, and could basically take his choice of any faction on the continent to approach and subvert. I can't think of anyone who wouldn't accept his assistance, especially given that his ring-making knowledge has real supernatural power, except maybe the Starks. Who get taken apart anyway whether Sauron is acting against them or not.
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Crown »

Tiriol wrote:What are the results of this "here there be Dark Lord" cosmic event for Westeros and Sauron himself?
Same thing that's going to happen to everyone else in Westeros; either the White Walkers cross the wall and invade on mass and kill everyone or the Dragons come back and burn everyone.

There's not enough time for him to consolidate his power against these titanic behemoths; he's gonna get fucked.
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Esquire »

Erm... are you basing that on anything? Because (I don't think) we see the White Walkers do anything Sauron couldn't simply shrug off, as losing his physical body wasn't more than an inconvenience for him in Middle Earth. A serious one, yes, but he did manage to rebuild Mordor after Isildur failed to destroy the Ring.

That said, didn't somebody mention dragonfire being possibly able to melt it?
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Grandmaster Jogurt »

If I recall the books correctly, dragonfire could theoretically melt it, but none of the dragons around in living memory of the time of LotR could do it. I'd severely doubt that Dany's dragons have the level of power needed to do it.
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by The Vortex Empire »

Gandalf said that not even Ancalagon the Black, mightiest of all dragons could have melted it.
‘Your small fire, of course, would not melt even ordinary gold. This Ring has already passed through it unscathed, and even unheated. But there is no smith’s forge in this Shire that could change it at all. Not even the anvils and furnaces of the Dwarves could do that. It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself. There is only one way: to find the Cracks of Doom in the depths of Orodruin, the Fire-mountain, and cast the Ring in there, if you really wish to destroy it, to put it beyond the grasp of the Enemy for ever.’
Nothing in Westeros can destroy the ring. Sauron cannot be killed permanently in this scenario.
Last edited by The Vortex Empire on 2013-09-06 05:00pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Murazor »

Even limited to his Third Age powerset, he is quite phenomenally powerful for the standards of Westeros.

Just mental power and mental power, plus whatever else he can still do at this point, will carry him far.
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Vendetta »

The Vortex Empire wrote:Nothing in Westeros can destroy the ring. Sauron cannot be killed permanently in this scenario.
Dropping the ring into an active volcano might work (depending on whether it's the volcano bit or the magical link to the place of its creation that allowed mt. doom to destroy it), but no-one will know that, and really, in Westeros? Maybe some of the babies might be sufficiently unambitious to not immediately claim it.
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

Vendetta wrote:
The Vortex Empire wrote:Nothing in Westeros can destroy the ring. Sauron cannot be killed permanently in this scenario.
Dropping the ring into an active volcano might work (depending on whether it's the volcano bit or the magical link to the place of its creation that allowed mt. doom to destroy it), but no-one will know that, and really, in Westeros? Maybe some of the babies might be sufficiently unambitious to not immediately claim it.
Especially given that no one will have any idea how to destroy it (as you point out), or even what it is or why claiming it is a bad idea. There's no Gandalf there to say "That's the One Ring! It's horribly dangerous and corrupting, but here's how you can destroy it..." Even much nicer people than the Westerosi would be terribly vulnerable to temptation and corruption under those circumstances.
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Ted C »

Esquire wrote:Erm... are you basing that on anything? Because (I don't think) we see the White Walkers do anything Sauron couldn't simply shrug off, as losing his physical body wasn't more than an inconvenience for him in Middle Earth. A serious one, yes, but he did manage to rebuild Mordor after Isildur failed to destroy the Ring.

That said, didn't somebody mention dragonfire being possibly able to melt it?
While the rings for Dwarves or Men might have been melted by dragonfire, I think Gandalf said with some certainty that not even Ancalagon the Black (the mightiest dragon ever) could have melted the One Ring.
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Lord Revan »

something we should also remember about the One Ring (and possibly other rings of power as well) is that a) anyone who has carried the ring for any signifigant time is unable to willingly part with it or to allow harm to come to the ring B) that the Ring has a will of it's own and "wants" to found by Sauron.
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Simon_Jester »

Sauron might be best off simply taking over Westeros by other means (physical body or no) and then worrying about the search for the ring. Unless he's genuinely worried about the threat the Others or Dany's dragons pose to his rule- in which case he'd need the power of the One Ring to oppose them with full effectiveness.
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

Simon_Jester wrote:Sauron might be best off simply taking over Westeros by other means (physical body or no) and then worrying about the search for the ring. Unless he's genuinely worried about the threat the Others or Dany's dragons pose to his rule- in which case he'd need the power of the One Ring to oppose them with full effectiveness.
Actually finding the Ring should be his top priority, since there's only one real threat to him: someone finding, claiming and mastering the Ring. If someone masters the Ring, the effect on Sauron will be the same as the Ring being destroyed: he'll be reduced to permanent bodiless impotence. And the new master of the Ring becomes a new Dark Lord, whether they intended it or not.
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Crown »

Esquire wrote:Erm... are you basing that on anything? Because (I don't think) we see the White Walkers do anything Sauron couldn't simply shrug off, as losing his physical body wasn't more than an inconvenience for him in Middle Earth. A serious one, yes, but he did manage to rebuild Mordor after Isildur failed to destroy the Ring.
The point is he's not gonna have any man power that's gonna impede or stop the White Walkers. These are Necromancers en mass, whatever army he can cobble together is gonna be turned against him by them.

Sure, maybe he'll play the long game and wait for the White Walkers to go back into hibernation and the Dragons to begin their slumber again (or whatever it is they do) and come up trumps, but realistically in the coming clash (ice vs fire) he's not gonna be able to affect it in any meaningful way.
Esquire wrote:That said, didn't somebody mention dragonfire being possibly able to melt it?
With Fantasy you kind of have two options to approach the question of the melting of the ring; you look at it as a quantifiable minimum heat requirement (i.e. lava temp), or you accept that it can only be un-made at Mt Doom just cause.

I'm not particularly invested in either of the two, since he doesn't posses the ring, even if he did he doesn't have time to make a war host that can stand up to the White Walkers or the Dragons, and I don't think he even has time to make Ring Wraiths, I mean as far as I know it takes many, many years for the rings of power to convert and corrupt the souls into Ring Wraiths...
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Gaidin »

Crown wrote: With Fantasy you kind of have two options to approach the question of the melting of the ring; you look at it as a quantifiable minimum heat requirement (i.e. lava temp), or you accept that it can only be un-made at Mt Doom just cause.
I think you have to accept the heat requirement because every bit of dialogue leading up to requiring Mt. Doom was how everything they had wouldn't be hot enough to melt the ring. Not that it had the magical(?) properties to un-make it. Even Mt. Doom is just a volcano. It just happens to be the place where the One Ring is forged, giving it an insane resistance to heat. Gandalf even says the ring is quite cool after pulling it out of a fire, though I can't remember how closely in line that was with the books and my books are in a box in another city right now. At the point of the Council of Elrond it's not about Mt. Doom. It's about heat. I'd be willing to bet if they'd known another active enough volcano and had the time(Mt. Doom was the closest) before the War, they could've avoided Mordor altogether, logically, and gone to that one instead.

All things being equal, we don't know what kind of fire the grown dragons are capable of throwing out, but I'm also willing to bet we don't really have the time to wait around until they hit the age of 'Ancient' where we'd be willing to bet they'd have that output. But an active volcano would do the trick. If you wanted to meet the symbolic requirement of Frodo's journey here, ask yourself, which one's the hardest to travel to? That's a bit harder to answer at this point given that Martin's not gone into that kind of geography very much at all in his world.
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

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The point is he's not gonna have any man power that's gonna impede or stop the White Walkers. These are Necromancers en mass, whatever army he can cobble together is gonna be turned against him by them.

Sure, maybe he'll play the long game and wait for the White Walkers to go back into hibernation and the Dragons to begin their slumber again (or whatever it is they do) and come up trumps, but realistically in the coming clash (ice vs fire) he's not gonna be able to affect it in any meaningful way.
Wights, barrow-wights feature heavily in his forces, and he is a necromancer himself. I've no idea about the White Walkers' motivations (please don't tell me), but why not ally himself with them?

Or maybe he'll be able to dominate them, especially if he can get the Ring back, and suddenly instead of nine Black Riders, he's got shedloads of White Walkers.

Or maybe he can corrupt the Warlocks. Or the Maesters. And teach them necromancy enough to wrest control of the White Walker's minions, basically turning the world into Minas Morgul.

Or maybe the White Walkers are powerful enough to claim the Ring for themselves. That'd be pretty damn nasty!

Would the apparent low level of magic in the world enough to sustain him? The magic in Westeros seems to be coming back - would his power ebb and flow along with what seem to be natural tides of magic?
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

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Sinewmire wrote:
Wights, barrow-wights feature heavily in his forces, and he is a necromancer himself. I've no idea about the White Walkers' motivations (please don't tell me), but why not ally himself with them?
Because he lives and breaths and is not a White Walker himself.
Exact White walker goals and motivations are still a touch murky but we know they hate the living and see those who walk and breath and live as just tools to be used for their goals.

But ignorance of Sauron's power also extends both ways, he won't know shit about the White Walkers and the only people who do know are the Wildlings and the Watch. Depending on where he ends up in Westeros the chances of him doing anything but settling down to Win the Game of Thrones are tiny since everyone but the north does not give two shits about what lies beyond the Wall.

Who's going to tell him malevolent ice spirits have come back to reclaim what is theirs and bring the Long Night of Darkness and cold
If... again if that's what they even intend to do, even fully read all the books and the released spoiler chapters we simply don't know much about them.

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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Vendetta »

Mr Bean wrote:Because he lives and breaths and is not a White Walker himself.
Exact White walker goals and motivations are still a touch murky but we know they hate the living and see those who walk and breath and live as just tools to be used for their goals.
For a given value of "live" and "breathe". Sauron was never a living mortal, he just chooses to incarnate in something resembling their form.

Even without the ring, Sauron can bend lesser minds to his will, and the White Walkers may just look like prime Evil Minion material.
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Crown »

Vendetta wrote:
Mr Bean wrote:Because he lives and breaths and is not a White Walker himself.
Exact White walker goals and motivations are still a touch murky but we know they hate the living and see those who walk and breath and live as just tools to be used for their goals.
For a given value of "live" and "breathe". Sauron was never a living mortal, he just chooses to incarnate in something resembling their form.

Even without the ring, Sauron can bend lesser minds to his will, and the White Walkers may just look like prime Evil Minion material.
Like Hobbits? Ooops.

The only examples I can think of where Sauron 'bent lesser minds to his will' involved protracted periods of extreme torture (elves into Orcs), deception (all the Dwarf Lords and Kings of Men) to entrap them with rings, and taking advantage of base emotions (Saruman).

The White Walkers are completely alien, and he's not even aware that they exist and on the other side of the wall to them. So how, the flying fuck, is he gonna 'bend them to his will'?

Winter is coming, and flaming eye is simply not prepared.
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Mr Bean »

And to go into White walker theories which involve ASoIF spoilers Spoiler
There are five separate theories running around out there about what the White Walkers are, two of which bear on this discussion. One is that White Walkers are a splinter group of the Children of the Forest who don't like men and are perma warged into corpses of men after death to create the next best thing to undead ghost horrors. The other theory is that the WW are inherently magical in basis like Dragons but with ice instead of Fire. Sauron could no more bend them to his will then he could convince the sun to rise in the south.

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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Crown »

Mr Bean wrote:And to go into White walker theories which involve ASoIF spoilers Spoiler
There are five separate theories running around out there about what the White Walkers are, two of which bear on this discussion. One is that White Walkers are a splinter group of the Children of the Forest who don't like men and are perma warged into corpses of men after death to create the next best thing to undead ghost horrors. The other theory is that the WW are inherently magical in basis like Dragons but with ice instead of Fire. Sauron could no more bend them to his will then he could convince the sun to rise in the south.
Spoiler
The dichotomy of of the White Walkers and the Dragons is one of the more interesting mysteries that George has created.
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Sinewmire »

The only examples I can think of where Sauron 'bent lesser minds to his will' involved protracted periods of extreme torture (elves into Orcs), deception (all the Dwarf Lords and Kings of Men) to entrap them with rings, and taking advantage of base emotions (Saruman).
Evil creatures in general are bent to Sauron's will, such as Barrow Wights. I'd happily concede this may not be actual magics. It could be persuasion via force or through his minion's magic in the case of the Barrow Wights, and there are plenty of creatures who feign service to him (Saruman) or who have similar goals to him rather than vassals (the Balrog).

What would happen if Sauron used say, Witch King, to negotiate? Again, assuming he knows about them.
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Mr Bean »

Sinewmire wrote:
What would happen if Sauron used say, Witch King, to negotiate? Again, assuming he knows about them.
His main problem would be finding them to negotiate, speaking their language, getting them to listen, somehow taking down the Wall so they could come south.
Oh and finding something they would agree to, he has nothing they want since they don't want anything. They have a goal... maybe.... frankly Sauron is as ignorant of the White Walkers wants as we are. The only known negotiation between White Walkers and something else was Craster and we don't even know if they want his sons or they just saw that this odd human was leaving his children in the snow to die, lets see what else he does.

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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by fgalkin »

Crown wrote:
Like Hobbits? Ooops.

The only examples I can think of where Sauron 'bent lesser minds to his will' involved protracted periods of extreme torture (elves into Orcs), deception (all the Dwarf Lords and Kings of Men) to entrap them with rings, and taking advantage of base emotions (Saruman).
Like, going from being the prize captive of Numenor to completely dominating it to such extent they all went off on a suicide mission against the Valar?

You are wrong in brushing off the corruption of the Dwarves and Men as mere deception. It is far more insidious than that- identifying something they truly want, and offer a solution to it, that just so happens to be a trap. It involves great skill at both profiling and manipulation.

The reason why he couldn't corrupt the Hobbits is, and this is repeated over and over in the books, because the Hobbits are little people and think small. They don't want to change the world, or riches, or power. They want a nice hole, a good supper, and some pipe weed, all of which they can get on their own without Sauron's help. There is nothing he could tempt them with, so he failed.

The Orcs thing was Morgoth, btw.
The White Walkers are completely alien, and he's not even aware that they exist and on the other side of the wall to them. So how, the flying fuck, is he gonna 'bend them to his will'?

Winter is coming, and flaming eye is simply not prepared.
It may be that the White Walkers do not understand the concept of negotiation as we know it, so talking to them is impossible. Failing that, Sauron is very good at what he does.

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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Murazor »

Crown wrote:Like Hobbits? Ooops.

The only examples I can think of where Sauron 'bent lesser minds to his will' involved protracted periods of extreme torture (elves into Orcs), deception (all the Dwarf Lords and Kings of Men) to entrap them with rings, and taking advantage of base emotions (Saruman).
'And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him: almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was. Amon Lhaw it touched. It glanced upon Tol Brandir - he threw himself off the seat, crouching, covering his head with his grey hood.
He heard himself crying out: Never, never! Or was it: Verily I come, I come to you? He could not tell. Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring!
The two powers strove in him. For a moment, perfectly balanced between their two piercing points, he writhed, tormented. Suddenly he was aware of himself again. Frodo, neither the Voice nor the Eye: free to choose, and with one remaining instant in which to do so. He took the Ring off his finger.'

[...]
“Some things he has seen, and others I have seen myself. The Ring now has passed beyond my help, or the help of any of the Company that set out from Rivendell. Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary, and I walked long in dark thought.”
[...]
Pippin sat with his knees drawn up and the ball between them. He bent low over it, looking like a greedy child stooping over a bowl of food, in a corner away from others. He drew his cloak aside and gazed at it. The air seemed still and tense about him. At first the globe was dark, black as jet, with the moonlight gleaming on its surface. Then there came a faint glow and stir in the heart of it, and it held his eyes, so that now he could not look away. Soon all the inside seemed on fire; the ball was spinning, or the lights within were revolving. Suddenly the lights went out. He gave a gasp and struggled; but he remained bent, clasping the ball with both hands. Closer and closer he bent, and then became rigid; his lips moved soundlessly for a while. Then with a strangled cry he fell back and lay still.
The cry was piercing. The guards leapt down from the banks. All the camp was soon astir.
'So this is the thief!' said Gandalf. Hastily he cast his cloak over the globe where it lay. 'But you, Pippin! This is a grievous turn to things!' He knelt by Pippin's body: the hobbit was lying on his back rigid, with unseeing eyes staring up at the sky. 'The devilry! What mischief has he done to himself, and to all of us?' The wizard's face was drawn and haggard.
He took Pippin's hand and bent over his face, listening for his breath; then he laid his hands on his brow. The hobbit shuddered. His eyes closed. He cried out and sat up, staring in bewilderment at all the faces round him, pale in the moonlight.
'It is not for you, Saruman!' he cried in a shrill and toneless voice shrinking away from Gandalf. 'I will send for it at once. Do you understand? Say just that!' Then he struggled to get up and escape but Gandalf held him gently and firmly.

[...]
'All right!' he said. 'Say no more! You have taken no harm. There is no lie in your eyes, as I feared. But he did not speak long with you. A fool, but an honest fool, you remain, Peregrin Took. Wiser ones might have done worse in such a pass. But mark this! You have been saved, and all your friends too, mainly by good fortune, as it is called. You cannot count on it a second time. If he had questioned you, then and there, almost certainly you would have told all that you know, to the ruin of us all. But he was too eager. He did not want information only: he wanted you, quickly, so that he could deal with you in the Dark Tower, slowly. Don't shudder! If you will meddle in the affairs of Wizards, you must be prepared to think of such things. But come! I forgive you. Be comforted! Things have not turned out as evilly as they might.'

Like hobbits, yes.

Feeling Sauron looking in his general direction leaves Frodo almost catatonic, while a two minutes teleconference through the palantir leaves Pippin parroting Sauron's words and Gandalf stating that if the communication had lasted longer it would have been bad.

Dude's got all the mojo he needs to do downright splendidly in Westeros.
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