Sauron in Westeros

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Lord Revan
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Lord Revan »

and we should remember that hobbits aren't immune to the corruption of the ring (Bilbo and Frodo got corrupted as did Gollum who if not a hobbit was at least a similar creature) just very resistant to it.
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

Murazor wrote: Feeling Sauron looking in his general direction leaves Frodo almost catatonic, while a two minutes teleconference through the palantir leaves Pippin parroting Sauron's words and Gandalf stating that if the communication had lasted longer it would have been bad.
And this is despite the palantir actually hampering Sauron; he's not the rightful user, so the palantir don't work well for him.
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Ted C
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Ted C »

Sinewmire wrote:
The only examples I can think of where Sauron 'bent lesser minds to his will' involved protracted periods of extreme torture (elves into Orcs), deception (all the Dwarf Lords and Kings of Men) to entrap them with rings, and taking advantage of base emotions (Saruman).
Evil creatures in general are bent to Sauron's will, such as Barrow Wights. I'd happily concede this may not be actual magics. It could be persuasion via force or through his minion's magic in the case of the Barrow Wights, and there are plenty of creatures who feign service to him (Saruman) or who have similar goals to him rather than vassals (the Balrog).

What would happen if Sauron used say, Witch King, to negotiate? Again, assuming he knows about them.
It's not all that clear what Barrow Wights are, but they appear to be wraith spirits sent by the Witch King to inhabit the tombs of his enemies in Arnor. It's quite likely that Sauron created them somehow, or they were subverted long ago over an extended period of time. Not quite the same thing as dominating a new faction of evil creatures.
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Pelranius »

fgalkin wrote: It may be that the White Walkers do not understand the concept of negotiation as we know it, so talking to them is impossible. Failing that, Sauron is very good at what he does.
For what it's worth, Craster seemed to get the White Walkers to leave him alone by sacrificing his baby sons, which seems to imply that he negotiated with them somehow.
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Re: Sauron in Westeros

Post by Tiriol »

Maybe I should offer my two cents' worth, since I started the thread...

I can see Sauron, with or without the Ring, becoming a real spider in the web in Westeros. Unlike most schemers in the game of thrones, he can actually dominate lesser minds (which includes most of living and dead beings) and keep them subservient to him, no matter what. And he's cunning and intelligent and of course almost ridiculously powerful by Westeros standards. It seems, though, that Sauron usually takes a VERY long view of things (what's a few hundred years or so for a creature who is by his very nature immortal?) and as such I think he might have troubles adapting to a new world that's going down the toilet quickly. Of course, Gandalf didn't hold any illusions about Sauron - Gandalf was pretty clear that he could and will adapt rather quickly. It would just seem that Sauron prefers long-term strategies and careful planning. Of course who would have a "lesser mind" out of the named characters in Westeros is an interesting question. And Denethor and Saruman didn't have lesser minds in that their mental faculties would be weak or that their willpower lacking. Denethor, at least, shows that it is quite possible to resist Sauron's domination, although he can wear down that resistance (and he was working through the Seeing Stone and it was Denethor, not Sauron, who had a right to use those things, so Sauron was working at disadvantage) or, if not outright domination, try to introduce despair, hoplessness and even suicidal thoughts once he gets a good look at someone's motivations.

I can't see Sauron making more rings of power, at least initially. He's probably going to conserve his power and figure out what the hell is going on. How will Sauron react to dragons and the White Walkers, I don't know - I think it will depend on his source of information. If everyone keeps dismissing dragons as extinct and White Walkers as a scary ghost story, he might not take them seriously, either. He will try to reason with both of them, though, if he comes to contact, although dragons seem to be more animals than anything else in Westeros and Sauron is used to dealing with intelligent, talking dragons.

One major hindrance, though, will be that he cannot take a fair form. I don't think Tolkien ever actually said what that meant - he can only be a terrifying, near-demonic creature or that whatever form he adapts, even that of a beautiful Elven lord, he will still ooze spiritual corruption and his evil is more or less plain to see, as is his power. Or both. Sauron materializing on Westeros would be a terrifying sight for its people, probably sending most people running for the hills. That will make manipulation harder, although not impossible - somehow Sauron managed it just fine in the Third Age, although he already had a strong base upon which to build (Easterlings and Southrons were no friends of Gondor or Dunedain to begin with). And even in the Second Age, when Sauron still had some good motivations and wasn't yet completely corrupted, Gil-galad and many other Elves had noticed a growing Shadow in the east and warned Numenor about it. When Sauron awoke in the Third Age, it would seem that he quickly spread his Shadow across the surrounding lands. I don't know if that's a conscious choice or not - the Second Age case would imply that Sauron might not have much of a choice in the matter: his power combined with his evil/rebellion against the Creator seems to have an effect all on their own. It didn't transform Mordor into a wasteland, but it did make it a much more hellish place to live in several ways (it was even remarked upon by Frodo and Sam and even by the narrator) than usual for a volcano wasteland. Greenwood was transformed into Mirkwood, so the Shadow isn't anathema in itself to life - it just corrupts it and makes it darker, more menacing. If the Shadow spreads and grows even if Sauron wants to keep himself disguised and in secret, he will make his base of power seem off to just about everyone. Unless he can set himself up as some sort of personification of Lord of Light for the Red Priests to fawn over, he must figure out how to get his plans going and to affect the world at large around him.
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