The Flash is getting a TV series

[Imperial Overlord]

No offense, but that comes off like people talking down about Superman. If you don't like something, of course you aren't going to be positive on it.

The problem isn't unique to the Flash, but Superman also has guys like Zod and Darkseid who are equally strong if not more powerful. The Flash can go from one side of a city to another and wrap a man up in a rope like a mummy in under three seconds and a lot of his Rogue gallery is competing with merely human speed and reaction times.

But those aren't all the answers. Each of them has ways of styming the Flash, whether it be making himself unable to be hit (Weather Wizard), using technology to slow the Flash down (For example, Captain Cold has a wide beam setting that generates a wall of "cold" which slows Flash down... and flash-freezes most anything else it hits) or both (Mirror Master, who can not only not be hit but create physical duplicates of himself if he wants). They have ways of slowing him down, stopping or styming him. That probably won't come across in a 2 hour movie, but in a show, you can show the preperation and thought that goes into trying to get past the Flash. You can educate people about the Rogues instead of letting them make assumptions about them.

The Flash moves so fast Captain Cold shouldn't be able to point a gun in his general direction, let alone hit him even with a wide angle beam. Now this kind of thing becomes less of a problem if you reduce the Flash's speed down to something more like Quicksilver's level, but having villains that are only a threat after elaborate preparations and the Flash obligingly cooperating with the first part of their plans is a problem. If Spiderman thwarts the Hobgoblin's preparations and plans then Hobgoblin is still the god damn Hobgoblin with comparable strength and reflexes and an arsenal of weapons. Once things stop going exactly right for Captain Cold he's a guy who is already beaten because the Flash has already taken away his gun and tied him up before he can do a damn thing about it.

[Justice]

Longer than you'd probably admit? I mean, Heatwave isn't a Firefly clone; he's a whole different level of power. What are you going to do against Mirror Master? How about Weather Wizard, a guy who can huck lightning bolts and generate tornados?

Curious. I can't see me mentioning Mirror Master, Heatwave or Weather Wizard...

I'm talking about the whole of the Rogues, and the "Longer than you'd admit" part was directed at your choices. And if you want to go into it, I think Captain Cold would give you more problems than you would admit: The guy has a gun that shoots absolute zero and uses it to slow down the Flash so he can be visible to him; that's not a trick Mr. Freeze seems to be able to do and if he did used it like Captain Cold, I'm fairly sure you'd be dead like Chillblaine. The Trickster is a gadgeteer of no small skill, probably better than anyone you have in your gallery. Could you beat him? Sure, but it would probably take you a while. As for Captain Boomerang, I don't see him doing any worse than Deadshot. Heck, he might do better because he's not using guns.

So? You're arguing the exact same thing for the Rogue's Gallery, except times a billion. If it's preposterous for me to beat these people despite the fact that I have routinely beaten similar foes, it's infinitely more preposterous for those morons to beat a guy who can casually move at the speed of light.

No I'm not. You're assuming that they are morons when they aren't: They aren't Spider-Man villains who don't know how to use their powers. Snart constructed his own weapon, and Axel's gimmick is being a brilliant punk. Sam Scudder created a system of interdimensional travel via reflective surfaces! They aren't simply crooks, they are intelligent thieves. It's part of the reason they are still around.

Somebody stole my super-science gimmick weapons? Whenever did that happern? Do I at least still have the kryptonite ring?

Not on the level of these guys, no.

That cash routinely being a fraction of what they invested to get it realistically. And that just brings us back to IO's point-the only way those guys can be a credible threat is if the Flash is terminally stupid.

I'm sorry, do you have the work bills for their stuff, or are you just pulling those numbers out of your Bat-Cave? I felt realistic economics went out the window when you decided to form a corporation based around vigilantes.

The problem isn't unique to the Flash, but Superman also has guys like Zod and Darkseid who are equally strong if not more powerful. The Flash can go from one side of a city to another and wrap a man up in a rope like a mummy in under three seconds and a lot of his Rogue gallery is competing with merely human speed and reaction times.

... And all the other speedsters, the psychic gorillas and other things there. The Rogues themselves are only a portion of his full rogue's gallery. They are just a really awesome part of it if you actually find out what they do.

The Flash moves so fast Captain Cold shouldn't be able to point a gun in his general direction, let alone hit him even with a wide angle beam. Now this kind of thing becomes less of a problem if you reduce the Flash's speed down to something more like Quicksilver's level, but having villains that are only a threat after elaborate preparations and the Flash obligingly cooperating with the first part of their plans is a problem. If Spiderman thwarts the Hobgoblin's preparations and plans then Hobgoblin is still the god damn Hobgoblin with comparable strength and reflexes and an arsenal of weapons. Once things stop going exactly right for Captain Cold he's a guy who is already beaten because the Flash has already taken away his gun and tied him up before he can do a damn thing about it.

Captain Cold's strips the potential and kinetic energy of things to the point that nothing moves on the molecular level. It's literally described as creating areas of absolute zero. The giant invisible wall of cold is basically what the Flash is going to have to go through to get to Captain Cold, one way or another. It's basically something he generates around himself via his gun to slow Flash down. Case in point: his metahuman powers do the same thing, and he recently bitchslapped Flash all over the place by slowing him down to regular speed using the same principles.

[Batman]

Longer than you'd probably admit? I mean, Heatwave isn't a Firefly clone; he's a whole different level of power. What are you going to do against Mirror Master? How about Weather Wizard, a guy who can huck lightning bolts and generate tornados?

Curious. I can't see me mentioning Mirror Master, Heatwave or Weather Wizard...

I'm talking about the whole of the Rogues, and the "Longer than you'd admit" part was directed at your choices.

Which you deliberately ignored to bring up villains I didn't mention. Call me silly, but when I ask 'How do you expect Cold, Boomerang, and the Trickster to hold up in Gotham' I expect your response to be about how those three would hold up in Gotham. When the question is 'how would Clark do against Brainiac', 'Darkseid would totally kick his ass' is not a relevant answer.

And if you want to go into it, I think Captain Cold would give you more problems than you would admit: The guy has a gun that shoots absolute zero and uses it to slow down the Flash so he can be visible to him;

And how does he actually manage to connect given Flash can move at, and depending on iteration, massively faster than the speed of light?

that's not a trick Mr. Freeze seems to be able to do and if he did used it like Captain Cold, I'm fairly sure you'd be dead like Chillblaine

Victor usually doesn't get the chance to have to try something like that, and when he does, he's usually up against Clark which is an automatic lose.
Not sure why absolute zero would overly bother a guy who can and routinely does tell the laws of physics to go take a hike.

The Trickster is a gadgeteer of no small skill, probably better than anyone you have in your gallery.

Bugger. I was about to mention Toyman but he's one Of Clark's, not mine, and the next best thing I've got is the Riddler. I may have to give you that one.

Could you beat him? Sure, but it would probably take you a while. As for Captain Boomerang, I don't see him doing any worse than Deadshot. Heck, he might do better because he's not using guns.

You serously expect trick boomerangs to do better than plain old bullets.

So? You're arguing the exact same thing for the Rogue's Gallery, except times a billion. If it's preposterous for me to beat these people despite the fact that I have routinely beaten similar foes, it's infinitely more preposterous for those morons to beat a guy who can casually move at the speed of light.

No I'm not. You're assuming that they are morons when they aren't

Ignoring the fact that a lot of the time yes they absolutely are, I'm assuming they're hopelessly outclassed by an opponent that can move and react at a speed that makes light wish it had taken those steroids.

Somebody stole my super-science gimmick weapons? Whenever did that happern? Do I at least still have the kryptonite ring?

Not on the level of these guys, no.

IOW you're bluffing.

That cash routinely being a fraction of what they invested to get it realistically. And that just brings us back to IO's point-the only way those guys can be a credible threat is if the Flash is terminally stupid.

I'm sorry, do you have the work bills for their stuff, or are you just pulling those numbers out of your Bat-Cave? I felt realistic economics went out the window when you decided to form a corporation based around vigilantes.

If you're referring to Batman Inc, not only am I on record thinking that was a patently stupid idea, but not every company is a for-profit venture. And frankly, realisitic economics went out the window sometime in the 1970s at the very latest given I apparently have more money than the rest of humanity combined. Possibly including Lex.

The Flash moves so fast Captain Cold shouldn't be able to point a gun in his general direction, let alone hit him even with a wide angle beam. Now this kind of thing becomes less of a problem if you reduce the Flash's speed down to something more like Quicksilver's level, but having villains that are only a threat after elaborate preparations and the Flash obligingly cooperating with the first part of their plans is a problem. If Spiderman thwarts the Hobgoblin's preparations and plans then Hobgoblin is still the god damn Hobgoblin with comparable strength and reflexes and an arsenal of weapons. Once things stop going exactly right for Captain Cold he's a guy who is already beaten because the Flash has already taken away his gun and tied him up before he can do a damn thing about it.

Captain Cold's strips the potential and kinetic energy of things to the point that nothing moves on the molecular level. It's literally described as creating areas of absolute zero. The giant invisible wall of cold is basically what the Flash is going to have to go through to get to Captain Cold, one way or another. It's basically something he generates around himself via his gun to slow Flash down. Case in point: his metahuman powers do the same thing, and he recently bitchslapped Flash all over the place by slowing him down to regular speed using the same principles.

But that's just it. Flash doesn't. He can easily go around it in a fraction of a second even if he circles the globe a few times and stops for a pizza on the way.

[Justice]

And how does he actually manage to connect given Flash can move at, and depending on iteration, massively faster than the speed of light?

Because, generally speaking, he isn't moving faster than light all the time? Hell, the current version certainly doesn't move as fast as he used to given what happens when he taps too hard into the Speed Force.

But the other answer would be that it creates a field of "cold" rather than simply a blast. It basically forces Flash to come through it one way or another.

Victor usually doesn't get the chance to have to try something like that, and when he does, he's usually up against Clark which is an automatic lose.
Not sure why absolute zero would overly bother a guy who can and routinely does tell the laws of physics to go take a hike.

I believe the explanation is that because the beam actively slows molecules down, it slows down Flash. I have no idea of the realistic physics of that explanation, but that's it. It's been given multiple times and in Flash #6 Cold slowed him down enough to actually catch his punches with his new metahuman powers.

Bugger. I was about to mention Toyman but he's one Of Clark's, not mine, and the next best thing I've got is the Riddler. I may have to give you that one.

I was going to say he's not as good as Toyman and also mention Prankster. Kurt Busiek's version is a damn good example of someone with silly powers being an absolute fucking hassle.

You serously expect trick boomerangs to do better than plain old bullets.

Absolutely! Comic book logic, of course. It's the same way I expect Green Arrow to do better against you than Deadshot: In fiction, we'll believe you can take an arrow or a razorrang and soldier on more than a bullet. Plus the fact that the trick boomerangs can vary, and he's could hit you with a few. I want to say the nu52 version is a metahuman with energy boomerangs that explode, but I'm not quite sure. Don't have the books on me...

Ignoring the fact that a lot of the time yes they absolutely are, I'm assuming they're hopelessly outclassed by an opponent that can move and react at a speed that makes light wish it had taken those steroids.

Ignoring what fact? I'm not claiming them to be geniuses, but I think it's hard to argue that they are morons. And again: we've seen Flash get tagged by less than speed of light stuff all the time. It's a logic jump to say "Since he has gone at the speed of light, he's always going at the Speed of Light." In the nu52, they've given a good explanation of why he doesn't always do such things: basically the more he taps into the Speedforce, the large imbalance he creates in it. Get a big enough imbalance, the speed force literally drags in stuff to compensate (Like, say, Iris West). It's a nice balancing effect to stop exactly the sort of thinking you are talking about.

IOW you're bluffing.

When you get a wand that controls weather, the ability to teleport through reflective surfaces, and a gun that creates zones where all molecular motion have stopped, we'll talk. I understand Batman does some superscience stuff, but not nearly to the level of the Rogues. Hell, Pied Piper being able to lock people's muscles via a special tuning fork and his flute is pretty up there. You use some great gadgets, CC, but nothing that acts like this stuff.

If you're referring to Batman Inc, not only am I on record thinking that was a patently stupid idea, but not every company is a for-profit venture. And frankly, realisitic economics went out the window sometime in the 1970s at the very latest given I apparently have more money than the rest of humanity combined. Possibly including Lex.

Well, that's pretty much what I'm trying to say.

But that's just it. Flash doesn't. He can easily go around it in a fraction of a second even if he circles the globe a few times and stops for a pizza on the way.

There's not really a "going around it". From what I understand, it projects around him. You're going to hit it. Now it's not going to stop Flash, but it'll slow him down enough to give him trouble.

And again, if you want to up the powers of the Rogues a bit then convert them to Manapul's versions. Hell, that's a great movie event: call it "Rogue's Revenge". Have the Rogues trouble Flash but keep getting beat, so they resort to trying to create metahuman powers for themselves... with the results seen in the nu52 Flash comics (Which are pretty great, by the by).

[Imperial Overlord]

Captain Cold's strips the potential and kinetic energy of things to the point that nothing moves on the molecular level. It's literally described as creating areas of absolute zero. The giant invisible wall of cold is basically what the Flash is going to have to go through to get to Captain Cold, one way or another. It's basically something he generates around himself via his gun to slow Flash down. Case in point: his metahuman powers do the same thing, and he recently bitchslapped Flash all over the place by slowing him down to regular speed using the same principles.

And how does he hit the Flash? How does the Flash not move around him and his gimmicks? Giant walls of absolute cold might be invisible but their effects are clearly visible and the Flash, relative to everyone else, has all the time in the world to figure out how to move. It's also fucking stupid because generating absolute zero around you is an excellent way to freeze yourself solid and kill large swathes of people (hint: if your molecules aren't moving, you aren't either. And its hard on the surrounding atmosphere).

And it's not like Captain Cold should even has the the time to react against him because he's the fucking Flash. Once the Flash decides to move, Cold just has to hope the Flash falls into whatever trap he's set up or is dumb in using his powers. Also fuck doing bank robberies with that kind of super tech.

I understand that people who like the Flash are attached to the Rogues and they have a long history in the comic. I understand that their character arcs are, by the people who read them, well regarded. But we are talking about villains that need to be handed all sorts of advantages to even combat the Flash and these advantages must be displayed using episodic TV budget and in a way that doesn't seem ridiculous or overly contrived on the small screen and in live action and that's a serious problem. Green Arrow fighting mobsters and assassins with signature equipment translates well to the small screen. Flash fighting in a colourful costume who needs a million dollars of CGI to show his stuff working in a way that looks impressive and is somewhat convincing at not being a speedster speed bump is harder to pull off. And they really need to pull it off.

[Justice]

And how does he hit the Flash? How does the Flash not move around him and his gimmicks? Giant walls of absolute cold might be invisible but their effects are clearly visible and the Flash, relative to everyone else, has all the time in the world to figure out how to move.

If it's a field all around him you basically have to run into it. And again, this is the assumption that the Flash is always going top speed all the time. He doesn't, and they've given good reason why in the reboot. Along with the whole "Speedforce overload" thing, Flash as he's currently conceived can't full indulge in the speedforce like he could; in trying to really use his superspeed to it's fullest, it overloads his senses and mind with sensory information and possibility. It basically can mentally zone him if he's not careful. Hell, it almost got him killed.

Which, again, is why I like the Manapul/Buccellato run. They've kept the idea of the Speedforce, but no longer is it a treasure trove of powers without drawback.

It's also fucking stupid because generating absolute zero around you is an excellent way to freeze yourself solid and kill large swathes of people (hint: if your molecules aren't moving, you aren't either. And its hard on the surrounding atmosphere).

Look, it's comic book writers trying to use science. There are times when the Flash is clearly has to be going hypersonic but they say he's just under the speed of sound. As it stands, all we need to know is that his gun generates a field that flash-freezes anything regular that tries to go through it and significantly slows down Flash, and that he has a way that he's protected from it (given when he talks about it, I'm guessing his parka is fitted with something to protect him from it).

And it's not like Captain Cold should even has the the time to react against him because he's the fucking Flash. Once the Flash decides to move, Cold just has to hope the Flash falls into whatever trap he's set up or is dumb in using his powers. Also fuck doing bank robberies with that kind of super tech.

Again, he can slow him down. It's basically a contingency he's built in, and it works to rather good effect when he became a full-on meta and actually attempted to kill Flash for once. I mean, you just have to read the book for that one.

And bank robberies with incredibly profitable gear/powers is a proud comics tradition. That's like the 2nd Amendment of the Comic Constitution.

I understand that people who like the Flash are attached to the Rogues and they have a long history in the comic. I understand that their character arcs are, by the people who read them, well regarded. But we are talking about villains that need to be handed all sorts of advantages to even combat the Flash and these advantages must be displayed using episodic TV budget and in a way that doesn't seem ridiculous or overly contrived on the small screen and in live action and that's a serious problem.

They don't need to be contrived at all. Again, not everyone is Captain Boomerang: Captain Cold and Heat Wave have tricks to them, and guys like Mirror Master and Weather Wizard can be full-blown threats on their own.

Green Arrow fighting mobsters and assassins with signature equipment translates well to the small screen. Flash fighting in a colourful costume who needs a million dollars of CGI to show his stuff working in a way that looks impressive and is somewhat convincing at not being a speedster speed bump is harder to pull off. And they really need to pull it off.

You right, they need to pull it off. The smarter thing to do would not be removing the half dozen incredibly personalitied and interesting characters for him to fight just because people want him travelling at light speed all the time. Again, all you need to do is take from the current comics run; they've given him multiple reasons to slow down at times. Setting limits as to what the Flash is probably the most important thing you can do for a Flash show, otherwise every enemy is going to have to be a speedster.

[Imperial Overlord]

If it's a field all around him you basically have to run into it. And again, this is the assumption that the Flash is always going top speed all the time. He doesn't, and they've given good reason why in the reboot. Along with the whole "Speedforce overload" thing, Flash as he's currently conceived can't full indulge in the speedforce like he could; in trying to really use his superspeed to it's fullest, it overloads his senses and mind with sensory information and possibility. It basically can mentally zone him if he's not careful. Hell, it almost got him killed.

No, he doesn't have to run into it. This is what I'm saying about the Flash being stupid. That Flash has to personally run through the field to do anything is Flash acting dumb.

Look, it's comic book writers trying to use science. There are times when the Flash is clearly has to be going hypersonic but they say he's just under the speed of sound. As it stands, all we need to know is that his gun generates a field that flash-freezes anything regular that tries to go through it and significantly slows down Flash, and that he has a way that he's protected from it (given when he talks about it, I'm guessing his parka is fitted with something to protect him from it).

That's not how absolute zero works. How does he fucking breath, because hint hint, the atmosphere won't be a gas around an absolute zero field? And again, it shows the problem with the Flash. The super speed has inconsistent consequences which leads to all sorts of problems.

And bank robberies with incredibly profitable gear/powers is a proud comics tradition. That's like the 2nd Amendment of the Comic Constitution.

Yeah, but its one that's been going to the wayside in recent decades and for good reason: its like the crew from Heat bumping off a 7-11. Guys with super powers can be dumb enough or damaged enough to do relatively small time crime, but those guys are unlikely to be cleverly using their powers in such a way to challenge the Flash.

You right, they need to pull it off. The smarter thing to do would not be removing the half dozen incredibly personalitied and interesting characters for him to fight just because people want him travelling at light speed all the time. Again, all you need to do is take from the current comics run; they've given him multiple reasons to slow down at times. Setting limits as to what the Flash is probably the most important thing you can do for a Flash show, otherwise every enemy is going to have to be a speedster.

As I said, you're going to have to reduce his powers and change his villains, not so much their personalities but their powers and their plans. Captain Cold needs reasons not to sell out to the defence industry and heists worth massive investments of money and uber tech as well as a costume that doesn't make him a douche on TV and powers that threaten the Flash while being affordable on a series tv budget. And you need to be able to attract people like me, who will watch super heroes and sci-fi, but aren't invested in the Flash already as well as people less nerdy than me.

[Justice]

]No, he doesn't have to run into it. This is what I'm saying about the Flash being stupid. That Flash has to personally run through the field to do anything is Flash acting dumb.

If it's all around him, doesn't he have to? Certainly happened when he was a meta.

That's not how absolute zero works. How does he fucking breath, because hint hint, the atmosphere won't be a gas around an absolute zero field? And again, it shows the problem with the Flash. The super speed has inconsistent consequences which leads to all sorts of problems.

That's for telling me shit I already know! Did you even read my post, or were you just really interested in giving me an improptu and unnecessary science lesson? Read my post again and note that I say

As it stands, all we need to know is that his gun generates a field that flash-freezes anything regular that tries to go through it and significantly slows down Flash, and that he has a way that he's protected from it (given when he talks about it, I'm guessing his parka is fitted with something to protect him from it).

I fully understand the stupidity of it. It's the authors saying it, not me.

Yeah, but its one that's been going to the wayside in recent decades and for good reason: its like the crew from Heat bumping off a 7-11. Guys with super powers can be dumb enough or damaged enough to do relatively small time crime, but those guys are unlikely to be cleverly using their powers in such a way to challenge the Flash.

As long as the target has a sufficent amount of capital, I don't see a problem with it. But if you want to change them into guns for hire or whatever, that works too. At the end, I'd just prefer they don't have aspirations of world domination or things like that. And frankly, Neil McCauly is not a bad template for Captain Cold's beginning. Given his position within the Rogues, it makes a bit of sense.

As I said, you're going to have to reduce his powers and change his villains, not so much their personalities but their powers and their plans. Captain Cold needs reasons not to sell out to the defence industry and heists worth massive investments of money and uber tech as well as a costume that doesn't make him a douche on TV and powers that threaten the Flash while being affordable on a series tv budget. And you need to be able to attract people like me, who will watch super heroes and sci-fi, but aren't invested in the Flash already as well as people less nerdy than me.

I think you can make reasons why they can't sell the stuff. Maybe he doesn't own the patent, maybe LexCorp stole it out from under him (or Dr. Fries beat him to the punch). Maybe he can't sell it to punks because they can't do the proper maintenance (Open up an episode with a bunch of flash-frozen punks who just bought one), and thus has to jobs himself. There are a bunch of ways to set it up.

As to make Cold a threat? That's what I'm trying to get to: Captain Cold can start off as a smart bank robber. After getting foiled by Flash, he then comes across/pulls out of the closet his gimmick weapon (Cold Gun) which initially frustrates Flash (It's a gun that shoots cold. Considering Flash generally vibrates himself through bullets, the first hit is going to be surprising...), but Flash eventually gets around it and defeats Cold. Cold gets defeated another time pretty quick (along with a few other villains) which pushes the creation of the Rogues. The Rogues go out, initially do well from surprise but get beaten again by Barry using his powers to their fullest. At this point, they take up an offer out of desperation: an offer to give them superpowers, to internalize and amp up their powers to 10.

I understand your concerns. Hell, the current run of the Flash understood your concerns. I think you can have it both ways: show them working their gimmicks initially, failing (but giving Flash a few problems), and taking the dangerous way out by internalizing their powers. That's why I like the Rogues and think they are perfect for TV: you have real progression with them. They don't just keep banging their heads against the wall, they keep thinking harder and getting better. In particular, I think it'll help people like you to see them evolve into these things instead of simply starting them off in costume like a movie might.

As to affordable on a TV budget, I have no idea what effects they are going to be using, so I have no clue what I can tell you on that front. I think most of the Rogues' effects are quite doable and probably less resource-intensive than Flash himself. But again, I have no clue on what specific effects will cost. I think they are rather doable, though.

[Imperial Overlord]

If it's all around him, doesn't he have to? Certainly happened when he was a meta.

There's options besides punching a guy, especially for a guy who can run faster than the speed of sound.

I fully understand the stupidity of it. It's the authors saying it, not me.

And? I'm not saying it's you. I'm saying its a problem.

As long as the target has a sufficent amount of capital, I don't see a problem with it. But if you want to change them into guns for hire or whatever, that works too. At the end, I'd just prefer they don't have aspirations of world domination or things like that. And frankly, Neil McCauly is not a bad template for Captain Cold's beginning. Given his position within the Rogues, it makes a bit of sense.

Your options don't have to be bank robbing or world domination, with nothing in between.

I think you can make reasons why they can't sell the stuff. Maybe he doesn't own the patent, maybe LexCorp stole it out from under him (or Dr. Fries beat him to the punch). Maybe he can't sell it to punks because they can't do the proper maintenance (Open up an episode with a bunch of flash-frozen punks who just bought one), and thus has to jobs himself. There are a bunch of ways to set it up.


As to make Cold a threat? That's what I'm trying to get to: Captain Cold can start off as a smart bank robber. After getting foiled by Flash, he then comes across/pulls out of the closet his gimmick weapon (Cold Gun) which initially frustrates Flash (It's a gun that shoots cold. Considering Flash generally vibrates himself through bullets, the first hit is going to be surprising...), but Flash eventually gets around it and defeats Cold. Cold gets defeated another time pretty quick (along with a few other villains) which pushes the creation of the Rogues. The Rogues go out, initially do well from surprise but get beaten again by Barry using his powers to their fullest. At this point, they take up an offer out of desperation: an offer to give them superpowers, to internalize and amp up their powers to 10.

I understand your concerns. Hell, the current run of the Flash understood your concerns. I think you can have it both ways: show them working their gimmicks initially, failing (but giving Flash a few problems), and taking the dangerous way out by internalizing their powers. That's why I like the Rogues and think they are perfect for TV: you have real progression with them. They don't just keep banging their heads against the wall, they keep thinking harder and getting better. In particular, I think it'll help people like you to see them evolve into these things instead of simply starting them off in costume like a movie might.

Yeah, that'll generally work although the "vibrate himself through bullets" should be dropped like a hot rock. Power creep like that should happen at the end of a series if it happens at all. Pure super speed is enormously powerful. Having the Flash being able to walk through solid matter allows him to bypass too many problems for a tv series set in a world with only a few metahumans.

[Ahriman238]

So what?

Let me ask this a different way. Why was the Flash captured during the Crisis on Infinite Earths? Because he's a man who travel through time, and hop to alternate worlds by vibrating really fast. The Flahs has more flexibility in his traveling than the goddamned TARDIS, you're telling me there's no story potential there?

Or heck, lets look beyond the Rogues for a bit, I know they get talked up a lot since being revamped but forget half the silly Silver Age stuff. Let's look at two villains I particularly remember. Abracadabra is time-traveler from over 4,000 years into the future, where he was a sort of bumbling stage magician. He comes back figuring to wow us primitives with his "magic" technology but has no clue how to build hype for his act or sell tickets, and turns to trying to do daring and impossible crimes to make the headlines. There's lots of room for a story there, no doubt, and a menacing villain with unbelivably advanced technology. Or Big Sir, a dummy with superstrength and damn near invulnerability. Flash was able to get Solovar to spring for a headset that gave the big lug a enius IQ, but it would inevitably get damaged or taken so villains could control him. Now we have Flash against someone he can't easily disable, and doesn't want to seriously injure.

Or Frost, a one-shot (AFAIK) illusionist. Doesn't matter how fast he goes if he's seeing and reacting to a different world. Or Zoom.