Hypothetical- A War Crimes Tribunal (RAR)

[Carinthium]

That's it- I don't have to take this. The abuse is one thing, but if you don't even understand the validity of the is-ought distinction then the friends of mine who said you people were beyond reasoning were right. I'm leaving.

[Thanas]

Oh, you're one of those cowards. Good luck on your future endeavors then.

[Dalton]

That's it- I don't have to take this. The abuse is one thing, but if you don't even understand the validity of the is-ought distinction then the friends of mine who said you people were beyond reasoning were right. I'm leaving.

BOO HOO HOO

*punt*

[Formless]

You know, I thought I made it clear it was Hume's interpretation of Is-Ought that I took issue with, not the is-ought distinction itself. Ought can be derived from Is, and all that, but no they aren't the same.

But I guess it isn't surprising he didn't read or comprehend what I wrote. Its disappointing that this of all things is what made him leave.

[Lord Revan]

You know, I thought I made it clear it was Hume's interpretation of Is-Ought that I took issue with, not the is-ought distinction itself. Ought can be derived from Is, and all that, but no they aren't the same.

But I guess it isn't surprising he didn't read or comprehend what I wrote. Its disappointing that this of all things is what made him leave.

Tbh watching this thread from the side lines it never seemed to me that Carinthium was debating but rather it seemed like he was preaching and doing that poorly as well, I'm no philosopher so I can't tell for sure but that's the impression I got.

[Esquire]

No, you're exactly right. The guy's practically a textbook example of how not to argue.

[Simon_Jester]

Part of the problem is that his views are so idiosyncratic and weird that he seems to have lost the ability to understand what normal people say to him- everything he hears, he interprets through the lens of his own ignorance, and solely in terms of his own pre-existing ideas. Therefore, he can't really circle back and check his assumptions or rethink his premises, and when other people tell him to he reacts as if they had questioned whether water is wet.

[Lord Revan]

Part of the problem is that his views are so idiosyncratic and weird that he seems to have lost the ability to understand what normal people say to him- everything he hears, he interprets through the lens of his own ignorance, and solely in terms of his own pre-existing ideas. Therefore, he can't really circle back and check his assumptions or rethink his premises, and when other people tell him to he reacts as if they had questioned whether water is wet.

his inability to even consider that opposing points of view would exist is why I actually stayed away from this debate, I really don't have the energy to argue with someone who doesn't defend his/her points but thinks they win by default.

[Thanas]

He is banned, no reason to continue with this unless somebody thinks his scenario is worthy of further discussion.

[Titan Uranus]

Hello there, I've been lurking here for something like half a decade or more and just now got around to making and activating my account.

He is banned, no reason to continue with this unless somebody thinks his scenario is worthy of further discussion.

I would actually like to see if we can't alter the crazy man's scenario so that it is actually an ethical dilemma, and then argue over that.

Because for some reason this actually interests me I wrote up a scenario, which can be altered further to constitute a more interesting moral dilemma.



Maristan: federal parliamentary system. Genocide was committed by one of her states, Durakstan. Demographics: 80% Marists, 20% Karanians. The population is extremely racist and has a far stronger sense of duty and honor than is the norm. Similar to the mid to early 1800's southeast in this regard.

Karak: Traditional enemy of Maristan. Launches war of conquest using genocide of minorities as it's casus belli. For the moment, let's assume that they have idealistic intentions.

Durakstan, a state of Maristan, committed to a policy of genocide against the Karanians in the region (totaling about 200,000 people). Durakstan had a 95% Marist majority.
At certain points I elected to call this genocide The Purge, mostly so I could call the two sides the pro- and anti- purgers, because that is more wieldy.

A: The Prime Minister.
When he learned of the genocide he considered it his duty to stop it. He immediately ordered the Durak militia "federalized" (or equivalent) and ordered regular divisions and federalized militias from the more cosmopolitan states into Durakstan. His order was ruled illegal by the courts on the grounds that there was no war or other state of emergency to justify his action. Facing a civil war between two relatively evenly matched sides he backed down so as not to destroy his nation. The reason he gives for this is that his highest duty was to keep the nation whole. He did, however use every bit of his influence, all manner of dirty tricks (bribery, blackmail, deception, etc.), and he took to the bully pulpit at every opportunity to expound on the issue in order to get the legislature to declare a state of emergency in Durakstan. He failed in this endeavor and narrowly avoided losing his office in the aftermath. He claims that he stayed in office in order to attempt to stop the genocide and he did make repeated attempts to stop or retard The Purge, these efforts succeeded in delaying and lessening the impact of The Purge. However he though he did pour a great deal of effort into this endeavor he did not give all of his energies and time to it, a fact that he does not dispute.

When the war Karaks invaded he was given war powers analogous to that of the US president, with the explicit proviso that he was not to meddle in the affairs of Durakstan ( this compromise between the pro and anti purgers was a result of the fact that this man was far and away the best for the job, having led his nation through another earlier total war with Karak. He was thought by military strategists of every nation and school to be the only chance that Maristan had to win the war with Karak. Indeed, it is widely agreed that his holding office at least doubled the length of the war.

During the war itself he defended all Maristan territory, including Durakstan. He posits that his duties as a head of state during wartime required him to do so.

However, during this war he conscripted and recruited heavily from Durakstan, far more than the national average. He claims that this was to disrupt The Purge, however critics point out that Durakstan's economy was primarily agrarian and based on cash crops and had little else to offer to the war effort.

What is known is that the man did use his powers to conscript Karanians into labor crews and directly into the army (though he was forbidden from doing so in Durakstan by the legislature and by the climate of the state itself) and that he did disrupt normal life in Durakstan far more than was necessary for military operations (seizing every locomotive that he could for "supply purposes" seizing, gas from all but that necessary for the war industries, which especially affected Durakstan due to a lack of war industries, ect). He was prevented from applying any measure that would prevent or retard the genocide in Durakstan specifically to that state, he had to apply these measures to the whole nation.

According to the Karakans' general staff the death camps were not taken into account in the defense of Maristan. They were defended or abandoned on the basis of strategic importance (as rail-heads and the like) which they generally lacked and the terrain itself. The regular army had standing orders to remove the camp guards and not to aid them in covering up the death camps. The PM was legally prevented from offering assistance to the victims. In fact in a carbon copy of the letter detailing the prior general order the PM ordered regular soldiers and federalized militia to render “all possible aid” to the victims. This sentence was not present in the received order, the PM holds this up as an example how little he could do to halt the killings. He claims that the order was censored by officers appointed by the legislature, however any evidence of this was lost in the strategic bombing of the capital city.

The Prime Minister fought as long as there was any hope for better terms, he claims that this was due to the Karakans’ demand of unconditional surrender, whereas he wanted guarantees of basic rights for his citizens (including the Karanians, it must be noted) and a degree of national sovereignty for his nation. He claims that he would have accepted any treaty that included these terms.


B: The Premier of Durakistan. The Premier was against The Purge initially, and fought against it in a similar manner to that of the PM. However, he legally had the power to halt the killings by declaring a state of emergency and calling up the local militia. However, he claims that the soldiers of this militia would not have followed this order. And that, in addition he would have been removed from office and clandestinely killed by the organized racists in the region, especially as he would no longer have bodyguard protection. There had in fact already been multiple attempts on his life by pro-Purgers. He continued to attempt to delay the killings and to help Karanians escape. However, it must be pointed out that he did not do his utmost to delay the killings and allow Karanians to escape, indeed a disproportionate amount of those saved were friends of the Premier or were especially wealthy. He claims that he stayed in office largely due to the request of the PM, who saw him as a way to obstruct the killings.

C:Minister of Minorities: This man was a reformist party leader, the power he wielded was similar to the power wielded by the Australian Green Party leader. He oversaw the organized part of the genocide. He was put into this position by the political wrangling of the PM, who was able, via intermediaries (war heroes and friends who were not on the record as being for Karanian rights and were not associated with him(many of them did so out of a sense of loyalty and trust for the PM, assuming that doing this would help the war effort)), to convince the Durakistan local parliament that this man was a closet pro-purger who had intentionally weakened the reform movement, and that the genocide was due to him as much as anyone. The PM claims that he did this in the hopes that this man would delay and mismanage The Purge. This man did so, however, as with the others, he did not do so to the best of his abilities. He claims that he tried to walk the line between getting ousted (and possibly killed by the pro-purgers) and saving as many people as possible. He claims he did not resign because he believed that he could save the most people in his position as Minister, the PM helped convince him of this.


D: The Great Butcher was an administrator before the war however, he worked in a field not necessary for the war effort and was drafted as into his position as overseer of a minor death camp before the Premier knew of his record and before the Minister was put in office. Initially the Butcher took to his job with relish, as he had always hated the Karanians in the sort of automatic, passive way that almost all Duraks do. As the killings continued and he rose through the ranks (to command of the largest camp, ½ of all Karanians killed were killed here), he claims his views changed. He increased rations, justifying it by using the Karanians for work details and the like. He hid some Karanians and helped others escape. He falsified reports stating the camp lacked the materials to carry out the killings, and he made sure that much of the paperwork was doctored in order to make it seem like more Karanians were killed than actually were. This caused the genocide to drop below the war effort in priority for Durakistan. It is confirmed that at least 3,000 Karanians escaped solely through his direct intervention.

However, he disproportionately saved pretty women, children, those who could pay (he claims in order to use that money for bribes and such to save more, and at least some of the money was used for this purpose), those who he struck up conversations with, and those who needed saving when he was in a good mood. Also, controversially, he delayed or prevented the deaths of many Karanian women by using them as “comfort women” in order to justify increased rations for them.
All told, 50,000 people died in the major camp under his command (along with 10,000 in the minor camp), and 100,000 of those assigned to the major camp were liberated. This is a much higher ratio of survivors than any of the other camps.



E: The Chief Justice decided to consider The Purge before the court. He did this (knowing that it would be ruled constitutional) despite his prior support for Karanian rights. He wrote a dissenting opinion against the majority.

He claims that he brought up the issue in order to avoid a bloody civil war. He was also an idealist who believed that there was no way that the people would truly accept a genocide, believing that it was their leaders who were at fault. He believed that the result would be a constitutional amendment extending true citizenship to the Karanians. Obviously nothing in this paragraph can be truly proven.



F: The Lawyer does not really need any altering as far as I can tell.

[energiewende]

In fairness to that guy, I couldn't entirely tell if he really believed what he was arguing, or just wanted to test these counter-intuitive views by putting them up against determined opposition. This is a useful exercise sometimes.

Out of interest, did he ever provide credentials? His claim to be an undergraduate philosophy student didn't seem too implausible.

[Thanas]

No, he did not.

[amigocabal]

I read through the thread, and from the original post, as well as the replies, it seems that the hypo being offered here was the genocide carried out by a state within its own territory and not involving any outsiders, as opposed to say, invading other countries and committing genocide there (as Nazi Germany did).

Would this even fall under a jurisdiction of an international tribunal (which, by definition, deals with international matters)?

(Personally, if I had been in charge of Karak in this scenario, I would provide refuge to the people targeted for genocide, and clandestinely propvide weapons to them via my equivalent of the CIA. If Maristan goes to war over my supplying of weapons, then I would treat it the way Lincoln treated the attack on Fort Sumter.)

[Flameblade]

I would think that, as genocide is a crime against humanity, that an international tribunal would be rather logical. But I'm not a lawyer.

[amigocabal]

I would think that, as genocide is a crime against humanity, that an international tribunal would be rather logical. But I'm not a lawyer.

There is no precedent for international tribunals trying persons for purely domestic acts. Even genocide would be domestic if it was carried out by a government within its own territory.

[Imperial Overlord]

I would think that, as genocide is a crime against humanity, that an international tribunal would be rather logical. But I'm not a lawyer.

There is no precedent for international tribunals trying persons for purely domestic acts. Even genocide would be domestic if it was carried out by a government within its own territory.

Genocide is an exception. See the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

[Thanas]

I would think that, as genocide is a crime against humanity, that an international tribunal would be rather logical. But I'm not a lawyer.

There is no precedent for international tribunals trying persons for purely domestic acts. Even genocide would be domestic if it was carried out by a government within its own territory.

Sure there is, see for example the Hague for Serbia and their genocide, including the civil war in Kosovo.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I would think that, as genocide is a crime against humanity, that an international tribunal would be rather logical. But I'm not a lawyer.

There is no precedent for international tribunals trying persons for purely domestic acts. Even genocide would be domestic if it was carried out by a government within its own territory.

Sure there is, see for example the Hague for Serbia and their genocide, including the civil war in Kosovo.

Would the trial of Saddam Hussein count as international? Certainly the crimes he was charged with were genocide:

Al-Anfal Campaign
Halabja chemical attack

[Thanas]

Would the trial of Saddam Hussein count as international? Certainly the crimes he was charged with were genocide:

Al-Anfal Campaign
Halabja chemical attack

No, it would not, as he was tried by a kangaroo court comprised by USA puppets.

[ResistanceForever]

"Exercise of religion" means the practice or observance of religion, including the ability to act or refusal to act in a manner substantially motivated by a religious belief, whether or not the exercise is compulsory or central to a larger system of religious belief.

Does this mean that, even against a law declaring same sex marriages illegal, I can (as a judge of the state) declare a same sex marriage legal if such an act adheres to my religious beliefs?