The "Why aren't you reading Worm yet?" Thread.

Raw Shark · Post by **Raw Shark** » 2013-11-27 01:33am

Cycloneman wrote:I was enjoying Peer alright, it had an interesting main character and set-up, but I really didn't like the way #2 ended. The whole relationship between Caspar and Esmenet... I liked it right up until the "you love this girl" crap. Blech. That really left a sour taste in my mouth.

The heavy-handedness of it puts the prospect of an abrupt reversal into my mind, and I like the dangling mystery left at the end. If Caspar is seeing images of people's true selves or whatever happened with his dad, and looking at the girl he loves made him swear it off, what did he see that was so fucking awful, and why does he still love her anyway? Great dramatic potential there.

Cycloneman · Post by **Cycloneman** » 2013-11-27 06:13am

Raw Shark wrote:
Cycloneman wrote:I was enjoying Peer alright, it had an interesting main character and set-up, but I really didn't like the way #2 ended. The whole relationship between Caspar and Esmenet... I liked it right up until the "you love this girl" crap. Blech. That really left a sour taste in my mouth.
The heavy-handedness of it puts the prospect of an abrupt reversal into my mind, and I like the dangling mystery left at the end. If Caspar is seeing images of people's true selves or whatever happened with his dad, and looking at the girl he loves made him swear it off, what did he see that was so fucking awful, and why does he still love her anyway? Great dramatic potential there.

It's probably a personal niggle but the whole idea of "person A loves person B and expresses that love with very serious actions and doesn't get and/or expect anything in return" strikes me as extremely fucked up. It doesn't really matter who's at fault or how long it lasts or whether it's portrayed as a bad thing or whatever, it's unpleasant to read.

Raw Shark · Post by **Raw Shark** » 2013-11-30 09:04am

Oookay... backing away from that slowly, and... it looks like Peer is kaput before the voting. Guess it didn't grab Wildbow.

cadbrowser · Post by **cadbrowser** » 2013-12-03 07:51am

Cycloneman wrote:It's probably a personal niggle but the whole idea of "person A loves person B and expresses that love with very serious actions and doesn't get and/or expect anything in return" strikes me as extremely fucked up. It doesn't really matter who's at fault or how long it lasts or whether it's portrayed as a bad thing or whatever, it's unpleasant to read.

Isn't that though the definition of unconditional love? To love and not expect anything for it in return? I would venture to say that if person A was a parent and person B was their child you wouldn't see that as fucked up at all.

Raw Shark · Post by **Raw Shark** » 2013-12-03 10:19am

Face #1 is up. This story is... fucked-up, to put it gently. The details we're given about the setting so far raise more questions than they answer, but not necessarily in a bad way. Taking the wait-and-see approach.

Cycloneman · Post by **Cycloneman** » 2013-12-03 11:21am

cadbrowser wrote:Isn't that though the definition of unconditional love? To love and not expect anything for it in return? I would venture to say that if person A was a parent and person B was their child you wouldn't see that as fucked up at all.

I venture to say I would.

There is a degree to which it's dependent on situation (i.e. sometimes there's no particular way to pay it back), but if a caring, kind, loving mother gets completely ignored and neglected by her son once he has run out use for her? That's fucked up.

People talk up unconditional love, but in practice, when you actually get a chance to see unconditional love demonstrated, it's grotesque. It's the wife staying faithful to her abusive, cheating husband; the child desperately seeking approval from his neglectful mother; the father who gave everything for his children not even getting a visit as he dies; the good friend risking her life for someone who will never so much as thank her.

Raw Shark wrote:Face #1 is up. This story is... fucked-up, to put it gently. The details we're given about the setting so far raise more questions than they answer, but not necessarily in a bad way. Taking the wait-and-see approach.

I think it's one of these "bunch of strangers forced to participate in a game of life and death" stories, which I ordinarily like, but eh... not feeling it yet. I think Wildbow can handle such a story (he's not much of one for flinching with narrative brutality), but I also think he's playing things way too close to the chest here.

Simon_Jester · Post by **Simon_Jester** » 2013-12-03 01:27pm

There's a difference between unconditional love and non-reciprocated love.

I can say "I love you, no matter what secrets there are in your past," and that is different from saying "I love you, even if you don't give a damn about me."

cadbrowser · Post by **cadbrowser** » 2013-12-04 11:16am

Cycloneman wrote:People talk up unconditional love, but in practice, when you actually get a chance to see unconditional love demonstrated, it's grotesque. It's the wife staying faithful to her abusive, cheating husband; the child desperately seeking approval from his neglectful mother; the father who gave everything for his children not even getting a visit as he dies; the good friend risking her life for someone who will never so much as thank her.

Simon, correct me if I'm wrong, but the examples Cycloneman is giving here at the 'grotesqueness' of unconditional love looks more like examples of unconditional dedication.

Unconditional love separates the act of the feeling irrespective of will.
Unconditonal dedication separates the act of the will irrespective of feeling.

Cycloneman · Post by **Cycloneman** » 2013-12-05 02:02pm

This conversation seems to be spiraling towards the point where you get out a dictionary to resolve things, which means the conversation is no longer related to what is being discussed, but disagreement over terms. So I'll instead note that my point of irritation that started this whole thing was "guy goes out of his way to protect a girl, gets punched in the gut repeatedly on her orders," which assuredly fits under the same category as my other examples, regardless of whether or not you feel the best word for said category is "unconditional love," "non-reciprocal love," or "unconditional dedication."

cadbrowser · Post by **cadbrowser** » 2013-12-06 11:27am

So if you FUCK up the difference between fusion and fission I am supposed to conceed that you are "right enough" because you don't want to use the fucking dictionary to resolve terms? After all both of those terms are related to the atomic structure of nature, right? So fuck saying anything, or clarifying a position.

It's not whether I feel it is the best word. You are using the WRONG word. Period.

I loathe people like you that just want to "win" because you can't take the time to fucking learn, or that you are too proud to admit that you fucking messed up.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2013-12-06 02:44pm

Ok, you two... that story is over, so take this arguement to PMs if you want to continue it.

Cycloneman · Post by **Cycloneman** » 2013-12-07 08:31am

Face 2 up. Spoiler

Raw Shark · Post by **Raw Shark** » 2013-12-08 06:52am

Eh, I dunno, I'm enjoying the questions raised by this one, and the 20-minutes-into-the-future setting.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2013-12-08 04:25pm

I am also liking this one

Cycloneman · Post by **Cycloneman** » 2013-12-10 12:50pm

Boil 1 up

Alright, now this looks fucking fantastic.

Ahriman238 · Post by **Ahriman238** » 2013-12-11 06:00pm

Finally sat down to read it. That is good, and very different from Worm. So a mad science setting, with an aspiring Bonesaw (I know she isn't but it kept going through my head) with her non-talking head out for vengeance.

cadbrowser · Post by **cadbrowser** » 2013-12-12 07:33am

Oooohhhh...now THAT sounds like something I can really get into. Bonesaw was indeed one of my favorite characters in Worm. Got to go read it now.

Raw Shark · Post by **Raw Shark** » 2013-12-12 09:01am

I'm into it. I would, however, hesitate to compare Genevieve to Worm's Bonesaw as a character; despite a similar-seeming methodology, they are entirely different in motivation, background, etc. This is a mad scientist trying to achieve or get by in a mad science world, not a mad scientist doing her best to fuck up or save a "regular" world.

Ahriman238 · Post by **Ahriman238** » 2013-12-15 05:03pm

Raw Shark wrote:I'm into it. I would, however, hesitate to compare Genevieve to Worm's Bonesaw as a character; despite a similar-seeming methodology, they are entirely different in motivation, background, etc. This is a mad scientist trying to achieve or get by in a mad science world, not a mad scientist doing her best to fuck up or save a "regular" world.

I know that, and in fairness her personality and motives are almost nothing like Riley's, who never really wanted revenge. Still, bold choice to introduce our new possible protagonist by having her show off her self-modifications by killing a pig and later swearing she'll show them, she'll show them ALL!!!

I really like this one. I'll look at the others but I'm engaged with and rooting for Boil the way I wasn't for Peer or Face.

Incidentally, Boil 2.

LaCroix · Post by **LaCroix** » 2013-12-15 05:18pm

Boil has great potential - I keep getting a vibe of Girl Genius, the rebel...

Ahriman238 · Post by **Ahriman238** » 2013-12-15 05:59pm

Somewhat less so with her handling of the big guy, but to an extent, yes.

madd0ct0r · Post by **madd0ct0r** » 2013-12-16 06:54am

her handling of the big guy was probably my favorite bit. The setting is glorious though - inter war period in a universe where flesh beats steel.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2013-12-17 11:25am

Pact 1 is up, and it has me intrigued in a way the others did not.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2013-12-17 06:32pm

Ok, PACT has me hook, line, and sinker. I want to see what's going on with that house, with that family, and with the Others.

Ahriman238 · Post by **Ahriman238** » 2013-12-18 07:37am

Okay, moderately intriguing. I still like Boil better, but I'm happy to see where this goes.

madd0ct0r wrote:her handling of the big guy was probably my favorite bit. The setting is glorious though - inter war period in a universe where flesh beats steel.

Oh, it's great. I was responding to the Girl Genius comparison, because that's very much not how Agatha would have dealt with the problem.

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