Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers)

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by Ralin »

Scrib wrote:There's little to gain from making him look ludicrous to modern audiences and then explaining why he doesn't look ludicrous to Dany. Even in the book forums the culture gap isn't a satisfying explanation for some and people still think he's a cartoon.
I think they're missing the point that even from an in-universe perspective Daario is supposed to look ridiculous
Spoiler
It emphasizes just how stupid it is for her to fall in love with him. Which makes sense, because she's a teenage girl and teenagers do stupid things.
Mr Bean wrote:Come on give him something to make him look different. No beard and crazy clothes? Dark blue hair, easy to do. Just keep him the same dye his hair blue. Why? Because it lets him stand apart. Right now he looks like a beardless northerner.
I'd like that too, just saying, it's coming off better than I thought it would when I read they were making him all normal looking.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by Vympel »

fgalkin wrote:Image

Have a very nice day.
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Thank god they didn't try and follow the book's description.

Image

I never had any doubt that Daario Naharis would be significantly changed for the screen, and I think the change was positive - I never bought such an obviously ridiculous looking character as a serious contender for Dany's affections, and while belief can be suspended for a book, it is considerably harder to do so for a TV series - the viewing audience as a whole would simply not go along with Dany being attracted to a man who looked like such an absurd dandy, and seasons-long mockery would be the natural result. The entire thing would be a punchline.

Its like the dothraki having bells in their hair. Dumped from the show, because it was ridiculous on screen. It made everyone laugh.
I think they're missing the point that even from an in-universe perspective Daario is supposed to look ridiculous *spoilers etc*
That's a very shallow thing to use for its purported purpose. Deeds, not looks, are more effective at portraying that.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by Iracundus »

Vympel wrote: I never had any doubt that Daario Naharis would be significantly changed for the screen, and I think the change was positive - I never bought such an obviously ridiculous looking character as a serious contender for Dany's affections, and while belief can be suspended for a book, it is considerably harder to do so for a TV series - the viewing audience as a whole would simply not go along with Dany being attracted to a man who looked like such an absurd dandy, and seasons-long mockery would be the natural result. The entire thing would be a punchline.

Its like the dothraki having bells in their hair. Dumped from the show, because it was ridiculous on screen. It made everyone laugh.
I agree that the TV series would have undoubtedly changed the appearance, but I think some of the original descriptions of these characters was perhaps in an attempt to try and make things more exotic and alien compared to the Westerosi.

Historically there have been many styles of dress and fashion that seem odd or ridiculous to modern eyes but which were perfectly acceptable for the time or culture, and even more so when among the nobility/upper class who were not constrained by practicalities such as having to do manual work. I just think the original author failed in trying to portray exotic/alien and ended up with ridiculous. Perhaps the change is also a statement about TV audiences as a whole being unable to accept things too far from their normal comfort zone.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by Sinewmire »

I think that Lord Bolton is plotting something with Tywin Lannister. He seems very concerned about how well he's thought of regarding Jaime's hand, especially with his avowed merciless nature.

Tywin has said he is "doing all he can" to get back, Jaime, but we've never seen any evidence of that.

With the evil death leech spell on Robb, as he and the Freys are the only ones I can see getting close enough to fulfil the curse, and I can't see the Freys having the backbone to make such a major decision/betrayal, especially with Cersei and Tyrion affianced or married, and Jaime a Kingsguard.

I... have a very bad feeling about this.

Do changes to scenes count as spoilers? Specifically the Houses of the Undying.
I've not read ahead, just the end of Clash of Kings, as I like to watch, then read. Everyone the books are usually "better", I'd rather have the joy of discovery twice!
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by Vympel »

Yeah, House of Undying visions about events in future books are spoilers.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by Sinewmire »

Yeah, House of Undying visions about events in future books are spoilers.


Fair enough. I haven't read far enough to know how it turns out.


I'm worried for Gendry. I like him, and I nurture a secret hope for a future Arya/Gendry happiness... but George R. R. Martin has a reputation for killing characters, and he's not in a good place right now!

I'm also wondering how much the Red God's supposed power is actually his priests' magic. We know from S2 that the Dragons seem to be the catalyst for all sorts of magic becoming stronger. How long has Mellisandre been able to birth her shadow assassin baby monster things, I wonder?
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by fgalkin »

Sinewmire wrote:
I'm also wondering how much the Red God's supposed power is actually his priests' magic. We know from S2 that the Dragons seem to be the catalyst for all sorts of magic becoming stronger. How long has Mellisandre been able to birth her shadow assassin baby monster things, I wonder?
For what it's worth, Thoros explicitly stated that he didn't have any powers until the War of the Five Kings.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by Lord Revan »

On daario wasn't dany something like 12 or so in the books, while she's 17 or so in the TV series (character that is the actress is in her early 20s IIRC), so in the books dany's judgement wouldn't be as good on anything really.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by Vympel »

Iracundus wrote:
I agree that the TV series would have undoubtedly changed the appearance, but I think some of the original descriptions of these characters was perhaps in an attempt to try and make things more exotic and alien compared to the Westerosi.

Historically there have been many styles of dress and fashion that seem odd or ridiculous to modern eyes but which were perfectly acceptable for the time or culture, and even more so when among the nobility/upper class who were not constrained by practicalities such as having to do manual work. I just think the original author failed in trying to portray exotic/alien and ended up with ridiculous. Perhaps the change is also a statement about TV audiences as a whole being unable to accept things too far from their normal comfort zone.
Definitely. Personally I don't think there would've been too much harm in giving Daario a bit more flamboyant dress and maybe some blue hair though. All three of the Second Sons commanders looks like members of Spartacus' army from the Starz series. Only with more clothes.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by Sinewmire »

All three of the Second Sons commanders looks like members of Spartacus' army from the Starz series. Only with more clothes.
Exactly my thoughts on the Titan dude, he had "awesome irreverent gladiator style leader" which is why it was so shocking when he made his partial reappearance!
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by Havok »

June 2nd?!
You fucking cocksuckers. I was all set to watch Ep 9 tonight figuring it aired on fucking Sunday just so I wouldn't have to wait a fucking week for the finale. Fuck your mom HBO.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by Koolaidkirby »

They only delayed it because of your silly memorial day weekend, so its all america's fault.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by Havok »

I blame us too, don't you worry.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by Scrib »

Lord Revan wrote:On daario wasn't dany something like 12 or so in the books, while she's 17 or so in the TV series (character that is the actress is in her early 20s IIRC), so in the books dany's judgement wouldn't be as good on anything really.
There's probably little difference between book!Dany and TV!Dany here. Four or five years does not a mature person make.
I'm also wondering how much the Red God's supposed power is actually his priests' magic. We know from S2 that the Dragons seem to be the catalyst for all sorts of magic becoming stronger. How long has Mellisandre been able to birth her shadow assassin baby monster things, I wonder?
Well, it's stated but I'm pretty sure that we have no idea which came first. Lots of people tried and failed before Dany. Is magic back because of the dragons or are the dragons back because of magic? Is it a reaction to the "return" of the Others or are they just another symptom?

Terrible chicken-egg thing. And more to the point, given how Azor Ahai is/can be tied into the Red God's religion it doesn't really disprove anything. Magic is just fucking terrible in this universe.
Historically there have been many styles of dress and fashion that seem odd or ridiculous to modern eyes but which were perfectly acceptable for the time or culture, and even more so when among the nobility/upper class who were not constrained by practicalities such as having to do manual work. I just think the original author failed in trying to portray exotic/alien and ended up with ridiculous. Perhaps the change is also a statement about TV audiences as a whole being unable to accept things too far from their normal comfort zone.
More likely it's a statement about how TV execs think of TV audiences.

As for Martin failing in portraying an alien culture: I don't really see it. It's ridiculous because it's alien I'm not exactly sure what can be done when people are exposed to something like that and find it instinctively silly.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by Ralin »

Scrib wrote:As for Martin failing in portraying an alien culture: I don't really see it. It's ridiculous because it's alien I'm not exactly sure what can be done when people are exposed to something like that and find it instinctively silly.
I don't think you can call stuff like
Spoiler
slave soldiers chained together at the wrist and ankles in groups of ten or going into battle wearing high heel-stilts
Anything but silly.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by fgalkin »

Hell, the book-Unsullied are silly as hell while the Dothraki are basically Klingons on Horseback, and the less that can be said about the people of Slaver's bay, the better. Martin doesn't do foreign cultures, he makes caricatures and self-parodies.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by Lord Revan »

Scrib wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:On daario wasn't dany something like 12 or so in the books, while she's 17 or so in the TV series (character that is the actress is in her early 20s IIRC), so in the books dany's judgement wouldn't be as good on anything really.
There's probably little difference between book!Dany and TV!Dany here. Four or five years does not a mature person make.
I'm not saying she's fully mature (hell she spent most of her life being sheltered by her brother) but I'm saying is that she's more mature and more importantly audiences who've not read the books assume normal 17 year old judgement from her (which while far from mature isn't totally childish either) and such wouldn't "buy" her falling for a guy who looks like he's a golden age comic book villain.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by Vympel »

Lord Revan wrote:On daario wasn't dany something like 12 or so in the books, while she's 17 or so in the TV series (character that is the actress is in her early 20s IIRC), so in the books dany's judgement wouldn't be as good on anything really.
In the books Dany starts out as 14, and she's 16-17 by ADWD. In the show I think she's 18 already.

How much the characters have been aged up depends on the character - Sansa is a mere one year older in the show than she is in the books (she states she's 13 in the first episode of the series when Cersei asks - the books say she was 12).
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by Vaporous »

the "mysterious orientalism" of the Essos setting is so ridiculous that you get the feeling Martin knows how far he overshot the mark, and just decided to roll with it because he thinks it's too late to scale it back.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by Ralin »

Vaporous wrote:the "mysterious orientalism" of the Essos setting is so ridiculous that you get the feeling Martin knows how far he overshot the mark, and just decided to roll with it because he thinks it's too late to scale it back.
I think part of it is supposed to be flat out decadence and being completely out of touch with reality. Look at the Astapor or Mereen. You have a hereditary upper class who have more money than God and nothing to do except find new ways to spend it and stroke their egos. And from the looks of things, it has been that way for a very long time. They don't have any real threats to worry about because they're guarded by the super-awesome elite Unsullied and because no one in power really wants to hurt the slave trade by taking them out anyway. That sort of combination is going to lead to some pretty ridiculous and stupid looking extravagance most anywhere, in any culture.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by Vympel »

Ralin wrote:
Vaporous wrote:the "mysterious orientalism" of the Essos setting is so ridiculous that you get the feeling Martin knows how far he overshot the mark, and just decided to roll with it because he thinks it's too late to scale it back.
I think part of it is supposed to be flat out decadence and being completely out of touch with reality. Look at the Astapor or Mereen. You have a hereditary upper class who have more money than God and nothing to do except find new ways to spend it and stroke their egos. And from the looks of things, it has been that way for a very long time. They don't have any real threats to worry about because they're guarded by the super-awesome elite Unsullied and because no one in power really wants to hurt the slave trade by taking them out anyway. That sort of combination is going to lead to some pretty ridiculous and stupid looking extravagance most anywhere, in any culture.
Itis noteworthy that all the bizarre Yunkish soldiers are the personal playthings of a different Yunkish noble with their own weird fetish / obsession.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by Fire Fly »

Well, that was depressing. I suspected something was going to happen but I didn't see this one coming. The moment the music started to play, my heart started to race.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by Havok »

Really? I saw that coming a mile away. I mean, what else could have happened?
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by Fire Fly »

Havok wrote:Really? I saw that coming a mile away. I mean, what else could have happened?
I actually thought the big surprise was that Jamie was going to get killed, leading to to even greater internal division in Robb's camp. Also, the talk of attacking Casterly Rock threw me off guard.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 3: A Storm of Swords (No Spoilers

Post by Cykeisme »

I've just finished reading ADWD, and therefore have given myself clearance to participate in online discussions about Song of Ice and Fire without any fear of spoilers (while, of course, being resolute on avoiding spoiling anything for anyone else).


I always assumed that Daario's character (and Tyroshi in general) did look pretty ridiculous, only made workable by the fact that he's a very dangerous man who's very good at killing people and leading men whose business is killing people.. not to mention his swagger and self-confidence.

But when people see it in a TV show, to some degree we won't (can't?) suspend disbelief, and we'll be looking at a ridiculously dressed television actor. The audience would laugh, and they'd be right in doing so.

fgalkin wrote:Hell, the book-Unsullied are silly as hell while the Dothraki are basically Klingons on Horseback, and the less that can be said about the people of Slaver's bay, the better. Martin doesn't do foreign cultures, he makes caricatures and self-parodies.
Vaporous wrote:the "mysterious orientalism" of the Essos setting is so ridiculous that you get the feeling Martin knows how far he overshot the mark, and just decided to roll with it because he thinks it's too late to scale it back.
I think that aside from the in-universe explanation of the unprecedented levels of decadence that the slaver nobility enjoy (possibly beyond anything we've had on Earth), there's also the out-of-universe reasoning that I assume Martin had.. and here are my assumptions:

I'm simply of the impression that rather than being portrayed as a realistic juxtaposition of transplanted real-world cultures, the Eastern continent is actually meant to be as mysterious and exotic as our real-world West once believed the Orient to be.

That's only my assumption, but I noticed how Martin was careful to avoid mapping out the world and properly giving accurate descriptions of the lands further to the east (Ashai and other lands around the Jade Sea, beyond Qarth).
Basically our view of the SoIF's east is shrouded in mystery, hearsay, fable.. much as the real-world West of 1500 years ago would have viewed the East. Today those views are outright ridiculous, and the truth about the layout of the world's continents and their cultural history is a glance at an Atlas away (or a quick Google search), so we are denied that sense of wonder and mystery.

Martin is basically affording us the ability to experience the fascination with the unknown, by having a fictional world, with a fictional layout, populated by fictional cultures, where we really have no idea what goes on in the Far East of that world.

In line with that, their fictional Eastern cultures are really as fantastic as Western civilizations might have once thought they were in real life, including the levels of exoticness and crazy black magic and shit.
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