Game of Thrones Season 3 (Spoilers)

[Scrib]

And speaking of things you have going for you, your appeal to disgust is amusing is what I'm saying. Why should I give a shit that he killed people at a wedding (!!)in particular? Dat holy bedding right?Would duplicity be acceptable elsewhere.

So you're saying I should be going 'yup, totally normal' when the guy arranges a massacre, whatever the circumstances?

Uh, right. Check your sanity at the entrance?

No,don't be silly. I found your emphasis on the wedding (!!) part odd. It made it seem as if this was a greater crime because Edmure's wedding was the vehicle for the massacre's execution.

How on Earth could you have missed that? Deliberately perhaps?

[Gaidin]

And speaking of things you have going for you, your appeal to disgust is amusing is what I'm saying. Why should I give a shit that he killed people at a wedding (!!)in particular? Dat holy bedding right?Would duplicity be acceptable elsewhere.

So you're saying I should be going 'yup, totally normal' when the guy arranges a massacre, whatever the circumstances?

Uh, right. Check your sanity at the entrance?

No,don't be silly. I found your emphasis on the wedding (!!) part odd. It made it seem as if this was a greater crime because Edmure's wedding was the vehicle for the massacre's execution.

How on Earth could you have missed that? Deliberately perhaps?

There was a post earlier where I noted that the violation of guest right is a common scene in these stories. The Red Wedding is essentially a scene that basically turns the volume knob up to eleven, both by using a wedding(culturally) and by the sheer number of people that die and who dies. I thought I'd addressed that clearly.

[Scrib]

There was a post earlier where I noted that the violation of guest right is a common scene in these stories. The Red Wedding is essentially a scene that basically turns the volume knob up to eleven, both by using a wedding(culturally) and by the sheer number of people that die and who dies. I thought I'd addressed that clearly.

Fair enough. That is outside of the work though, which is what the question about Frey doing it at a wedding seemed to be asking about.

[Raw Shark]

There was a post earlier where I noted that the violation of guest right is a common scene in these stories. The Red Wedding is essentially a scene that basically turns the volume knob up to eleven, both by using a wedding(culturally) and by the sheer number of people that die and who dies. I thought I'd addressed that clearly.

Turning the knob up to 11 was the whole point, both for the character Walder Frey and the author George R.R. Martin.

IC: Pre-Red Wedding, Old Walder is more fucked than his latest underage wife. He threw his lot in with the underdog in the Game of Thrones, and the underdog screwed him over. If Robb wins the war, Walder doesn't get what he signed up for, and if he loses, he fears that Tywin will go all Raines of Castamere on him. What options are left to him? Either double down on the guy who said, "Fuck you, you can have my layabout uncle," or change sides in the most spectacular bridge-burning no-backsies way possible with a side order of personal satisfaction in the process. What he did is not common, and will never be forgiven by many, and can and does result in some extraordinary revenge measures by ADWD, but if the Lannisters (who know a thing or two about expedience over custom) win it might blow over.

OOC: Yes, this scene takes it up to 11 for the reader, in a way that's been coming organically for about 2,500 pages. It is a major contributing factor in the vast majority of fans over at Westeros rating ASOS as their favorite book in the series because it provokes such an emotional reaction without being cheap and random about it. GRRM loves the taste of an ocean of salty tears, and his sales figures demonstrate why.

[Spoonist]

Also worth noting is that the wedding is one of the reasons to do it. By getting Edmure the Freys get a legal claim on Tully land.
Thus waiting until after the wedding is declared is crucial.
But not letting the Starks get away is equally crucial in eliminating heirs to the north.

So at the wedding party is the perfect timing and opportunity.

[Mr Bean]

And now time for episode 30 and I'm very curious about what we will see here. As a book reader I know what could occur but I have no idea what will occur.

[Mr Bean]

Season Endpoints

Always watch the Boltons
Arya and the Hound are in the Riverlands with a certain iron coin
Bran went north of the wall
Sam and John are back in Castle Black
Tyrion is getting drunk, Sansa is crying
The Lannisters are all united again and Joffery is going off the deep end
Dany has gotten her Mysa treatment
Stannis is headed north
And Ned Stark is still dead

[The Yosemite Bear]

when him and Robb come back as Dullahans with those bad ass balefire spine whips in book 7 it's going to be awesome. Oh shit spoilers from out my arse. (Thouigh I am familiar enough with the original scotts/irish headless horseman legend

[Scrib]

"Then let the northerners remember what happens when they march on the south". Badass. After a few fucking years of constant fawning over the Hard Men of the Cold North and how The North Remembers (!!) on every forum I visit it's nice to see it go the other way.

Roose Trollton and Walder Frey having a good time. I half-expected them to start cackling at some point, so thick was the smugness in the room.

As for Tyrion-Sansa, I watched a video where Dinklage claimed that Tyrion married her to protect her, something which many book viewers took umbrage to since his motives weren't exactly pure. But given the direction they're going in it seems to be an accurate-somewhat- reading. Strange.

For half a second there I was certain that Varys was trying to recruit another idiot. But nope, just trying to give Shae an out.

Completely skipped Bran's subplot. Not really interested in him at all.

Davos: letting dragons go right when they actually became valuable then being saved by the fire lady. Awkward. Really strange that he got the letter and didn't mention it to Stannis during their first discussion. Oh wait, not really because that would defeat his argument right?

Goddamn, Ramsay didn't look as intimidating as I expected in his first appearances but damn if he's not just as much of a psychotic bastard.

[Vympel]

I loved this episode.

- The entire "here comes the King in the North!" horror at the start was just gut-wrenching, and something we never saw in the books for obvious reasons, but its something I can definitely imagine happening.

- Arya and the Hound killing those Frey fuckers was hugely satisfying. And the comic beat at the end, with the Hound saying "next time tell me" was a LOL moment for me.

- So, Jaime is back in King's Landing. Interesting move - and I can see why they did it. It gives Jaime lots of opportunities in next season character interaction wise. More road-tripping with Brienne wouldn't really pay off.

- Stannis insisting on Gendry's sacrifice - and Davos arranging his escape - is consistent with the books, so I had no problem with it. I always like the Dragonstone scenes, and it was cool see Davos read the Night's Watch letter.

- If anyone failed to see the significance of Bran telling the story of the Rat Cook and the violation of guest right right before it cut to Walder Frey gloating to Lord Bolton, they're pretty dim

- Wow, they hurt Jon worse than in the books - nice one. I'm glad they didn't leave that issue alone and had him have it out with Ygritte.

- The Small Council scene was gold. I loved Varys' badly concealed disgust with Joffrey's depravity, Tywin calmly putting him in his place, and the subsequent conversion between Tywin and Tyrion made for great TV.

- Yara and Balon!. Was seeing the rest of the Grejoys in this episode out of left field, or what? Fuck Balon - what a miserable cunt. I love Asha (Yara) in the books and she's shaping up to be a favorite of mine in the show too.

- Theon = Reek. Excellent. And we can finally note all the hints given to viewer's this season as to where Theon was:

* Theon is practically mounted on the same X that form parts of House Bolton's sigil, shown to us repeatedly; and

* Ramsay kills his own men, one of whom realises what happens and calls him a "little bastard".

"Then let the northerners remember what happens when they march on the south". Badass. After a few fucking years of constant fawning over the Hard Men of the Cold North and how The North Remembers (!!) on every forum I visit it's nice to see it go the other way.

What do you even think "The North Remembers" actually refers to?

Completely skipped Bran's subplot. Not really interested in him at all.

I really don't understand that sort of attitude. So you just ignored that whole scene? If so, you missed out the entire Rat Cook story and the importance of guest right.

[Scrib]

What do you even think "The North Remembers" actually refers to?

They have long memories? Of everything from betrayal to The Long Night? Not really sure the relevance of the question. It's something people keep crowing whenever the Lannisters or Freys are mentioned.

I really don't understand that sort of attitude. So you just ignored that whole scene? If so, you missed out the entire Rat Cook story and the importance of guest right.

Nope, I went back and saw that (and skipped all the rest including Sam meeting them and Aemon), but even if I did...so what? I am a book reader after all. The significance of the Rat Cook is not something I'm unaware of. I mean, that very story was mentioned just a page ago.

I was 99% certain that nothing really interesting was going to happen for Bran this episode. Other times I may put up with it,here...I wanted to get through the whole thing, so I cherry pick the threads that are interesting or different from the books.

[Vympel]

They have long memories? Of everything from betrayal to The Long Night? Not really sure the relevance of the question. It's something people keep crowing whenever the Lannisters or Freys are mentioned.

Its about the Red Wedding, specifically - so saying the Red Wedding is somehow the "what now?" to it makes no sense. Its precisely the opposite.

[Scrib]

They have long memories? Of everything from betrayal to The Long Night? Not really sure the relevance of the question. It's something people keep crowing whenever the Lannisters or Freys are mentioned.

Its about the Red Wedding, specifically - so saying the Red Wedding is somehow the "what now?" to it makes no sense. Its precisely the opposite.

Not so much a "what now northmen???" and more of a "see, we can trashtalk too!"

[loomer]

BTW of query what would the folks in Westeroes think of Dracula's dealing with the traitor nobles when he took the throne back from his brother?, he invited all the families that had supported his brother and the Turks, and gave them poisoned food. than had the ones that tried to flee impaled.

Probably in the exact same way the people who heard about Vlad's own action did: with disgust and horror in many, and in the others, respect and fear. The idea of hospitality and guest-right is hardly a Westeros only thing.

[Vympel]

They have long memories? Of everything from betrayal to The Long Night? Not really sure the relevance of the question. It's something people keep crowing whenever the Lannisters or Freys are mentioned.

Its about the Red Wedding, specifically - so saying the Red Wedding is somehow the "what now?" to it makes no sense. Its precisely the opposite.

Not so much a "what now northmen???" and more of a "see, we can trashtalk too!"

Well the RW by itself doesn't have a catchy phrase attached to it. Tywin's comment comes close, but Tyrion has the right of it in that conversation - it was a terrible, short sighted idea. Like so much of what Tywin does.

[Scrib]

Well the RW by itself doesn't have a catchy phrase attached to it. Tywin's comment comes close, but Tyrion has the right of it in that conversation - it was a terrible, short sighted idea. Like so much of what Tywin does.

Would you care to explain why?

[Vympel]

Would you care to explain why?

Because everyone and their mother knows that the Lannisters were involved in one of the most vile violations of the laws of Westeros in living memory, and the Northmen won't - and don't - forget it. Tywin's plan to somehow get Tyrion's son in the high seat of the Starks at Winterfell is doomed to fail for that reason, not to mention ensuring that his chosen Warden, Bolton, will not be much loved by those lords who know what actually happened (not to mention tainted by open association with the Freys) and will be overthrown in short order - oh, and giving the Northern lords that much more reason to throw their support behind Stannis as opposed to some twisted monster back in King's Landing.

[Scrib]

Would you care to explain why?

Because everyone and their mother knows that the Lannisters were involved in one of the most vile violations of the laws of Westeros in living memory, and the Northmen won't - and don't - forget it.

Uh, excuse me, the official line is that Robb Stark is the true criminal here. He did after all warg into a wolf and try to kill his host.
Spoiler

In the books people actually yielded afterwards, spooky tales about rats be damned. Why? Because they knew that they were fucked and the Lannisters offered them a chance to take out their frustrations on their enemies. See: The Blackwoods and Brackens.

Tywin's plan to somehow get Tyrion's son in the high seat of the Starks at Winterfell is doomed to fail for that reason, not to mention ensuring that his chosen Warden, Bolton, will not be much loved by those lords who know what actually happened (not to mention tainted by open association with the Freys) and will be overthrown in short order

Any upstart who expects to be loved is a fool. All he must do is endure.

We don't know how much book canon and TV canon diverge here but the basic logic was simple, keep everyone as hostages to guarantee "reasonable" behavior. Kill all their men so that if they don't want to be reasonable they'll be weaker. And if they want to fight with their best of the rest...let them fight all winter. Who is fucked? Tywin Lannister in Casterly Rock?

And to some degree it worked. Sure there was dissension but it was not open-well, mostly. And some lords seemed quite content to stick with what they had now, Red Wedding or no Red Wedding no one wants to be the first example. You have more faith in the strength of Westerosi than I if you truly believe that they'll rise up, armed only with righteous fury, to strike down an "oppressor" with the power of the crown behind him for the sake of a dead family.

And if they weren't...good for them? Their men are dead, their armies are gone or made up of weak boys or old men or people who couldn't make it to the fight the first time around. And it's winter soon. Good luck rooting out Bolton who is both a capable commander in his own right and has experienced men behind him.

Did we mention that quite a few of the castles in the North (which is already sparsely populated) is under the control of Ironborn?

- oh, and giving the Northern lords that much more reason to throw their support behind Stannis as opposed to some twisted monster back in King's Landing.

The claimant formerly known as Stannis is currently a lightweight on Dragonstone waiting to die. His cause is lost. He had, what, 1500 knights? Who knows how many would desert him? Why would he go to the ravaged north? (And yes, I know why, I'm talking about Tywin.) Spoiler

Stannis didn't even have the help of Manderly because his sons were hostages and he really hated the Lannisters

[Vympel]

Uh, excuse me, the official line is that Robb Stark is the true criminal here. He did after all warg into a wolf and try to kill his host.
Spoiler

In the books people actually yielded afterwards, spooky tales about rats be damned. Why? Because they knew that they were fucked and the Lannisters offered them a chance to take out their frustrations on their enemies. See: The Blackwoods and Brackens.

I'll take the smiley as us both knowing that everyone knows that's bullshit. In any event, re: your spoiler tagged paragraph - so what? That's great. In the short term. What I'm talking about is a sustainable future.

Any upstart who expects to be loved is a fool. All he must do is endure.

We don't know how much book canon and TV canon diverge here but the basic logic was simple, keep everyone as hostages to guarantee "reasonable" behavior. Kill all their men so that if they don't want to be reasonable they'll be weaker. And if they want to fight with their best of the rest...let them fight all winter. Who is fucked? Tywin Lannister in Casterly Rock?

Who cares about Tywin? How much longer is he going to live? Another 10 years, provided his health holds? Again - short term thinking. If we're talking about building a lasting peace and ensuring that the realm doesn't bleed all over again in a few years, its a terrible, idiotic plan.

And to some degree it worked. Sure there was dissension but it was not open-well, mostly. And some lords seemed quite content to stick with what they had now, Red Wedding or no Red Wedding no one wants to be the first example. You have more faith in the strength of Westerosi than I if you truly believe that they'll rise up, armed only with righteous fury, to strike down an "oppressor" with the power of the crown behind him for the sake of a dead family.

If the family was dead, which its not. But even if they were, so what? They're not going to do it for the sake of a dead family, they're going to do it for their own dead kin.

And if they weren't...good for them? Their men are dead, their armies are gone or made up of weak boys or old men or people who couldn't make it to the fight the first time around. And it's winter soon. Good luck rooting out Bolton who is both a capable commander in his own right and has experienced men behind him.

Short term thinking, again. In a few years their boys will be men.

Did we mention that quite a few of the castles in the North (which is already sparsely populated) is under the control of Ironborn?

What castles? Deepwood Motte and Torrhen's Square (and probably not even Torrhen's Square, given that Rodrik Cassel took it back before returning to Winterfell, obviously alone)? That's two castles worth noting. Maybe some other podunk holdfasts of petty lords that aren't even worth naming? That's hardly problematic - Ironborn are poorly disciplined fighters, no match for northern armies pound for pound.

[Vaporous]

Spoiler

I don't think it's a coincidence that Tyrion and Tywin also discuss the murder of Elia and her children during this scene in the book. That was another brutal and effective measure that went too far and has long term consequences for the Lannisters. Its supposed to show that Tywin isn't actually omni-competant outside his bad parenting. He's brilliant, but everyone can make mistakes.

I'll say this for Tywin. He knows that the north will vent most of its fury on the Freys, who he doesn't care about, and the Boltons, who he plans to supplant with Tyrions son anyway. Once the Lannister-Stark cadet branch rules in the North, It'd be up to Tyrion to keep the peace. The North and the Riverlands are both in ruins, iand winter is etc, so it would be years or decades before any real organized revenge would be possible. In theory, anyway.

I do think they should have kept the exchange about giving pardons and "helping the kneeling to their feet" vs "kill them all". It would have made the Tywin-Joff argument flow better, if nothing else. I missed "He's not Robert II, He's Aerys III" too, but that's just because it was funny.

There were a few good scenes in this episode, but it suffers from the awkward pacing of this entire season. Maybe cutting ASoS in half meant this was inevitable.

Next year should be full of interesting stuff. Already impatient.

[Ahriman238]

Huh, they did sew Greywind and Robb together.

And goddamnit, the season is over and Joff is still breathing. Okay, logically they couldn't have fit it when they're already trying to deal with the aftermath of the Wedding, but I wanted to see him choke and die.

[Terralthra]

It'll make a nice premiere episode.

[Spekio]

It'll make a nice premiere episode.

I think we need Tyrion to slap Joffrey one last time before that.

[Ahriman238]

It'll make a nice premiere episode.

Yeah, but now we have to wait a year to see it.

Joffery wasn't exactly making friends in the small council chamber. Nice to see Tywin shoot him down, again. I wonder if that's what it was like during Aerys' day.

[Scrib]

Uh, excuse me, the official line is that Robb Stark is the true criminal here. He did after all warg into a wolf and try to kill his host.
Spoiler

In the books people actually yielded afterwards, spooky tales about rats be damned. Why? Because they knew that they were fucked and the Lannisters offered them a chance to take out their frustrations on their enemies. See: The Blackwoods and Brackens.

I'll take the smiley as us both knowing that everyone knows that's bullshit. In any event, re: your spoiler tagged paragraph - so what? That's great. In the short term. What I'm talking about is a sustainable future.

Do you think that the Brackens, having now attacked their fellow vassals in the name of the King are going to turn around and rebel? With who?

Any upstart who expects to be loved is a fool. All he must do is endure.

We don't know how much book canon and TV canon diverge here but the basic logic was simple, keep everyone as hostages to guarantee "reasonable" behavior. Kill all their men so that if they don't want to be reasonable they'll be weaker. And if they want to fight with their best of the rest...let them fight all winter. Who is fucked? Tywin Lannister in Casterly Rock?

Who cares about Tywin? How much longer is he going to live? Another 10 years, provided his health holds? Again - short term thinking. If we're talking about building a lasting peace and ensuring that the realm doesn't bleed all over again in a few years, its a terrible, idiotic plan.

Tywin Lannister (who looks pretty spry) or Kevan or Tyrion or whoever. But if there is any bleeding to be done it'll be the north which is nice. And everyone is better for it. Robb Stark and any unifying force is gone so the southern lands are safe for now and any Tully loyalists have no help. If Stark was allowed to go north without yielding, which he seemed wont to do, it'd be a long time before anyone could touch him.But now...none of that "taking Casterly Rock" bullshit is viable now. Let them depopulate their own land.

But you ignore the point. Bolton has the army, he has the experience, he has Winterfell and the Dreadfort and he has the support of the crown.And possibly hostages.And not only are the Starks dead but their replacement is a man that'll flay his enemies. They can fight it out but he has the upper hand.

And to some degree it worked. Sure there was dissension but it was not open-well, mostly. And some lords seemed quite content to stick with what they had now, Red Wedding or no Red Wedding no one wants to be the first example. You have more faith in the strength of Westerosi than I if you truly believe that they'll rise up, armed only with righteous fury, to strike down an "oppressor" with the power of the crown behind him for the sake of a dead family.

If the family was dead, which its not. But even if they were, so what? They're not going to do it for the sake of a dead family, they're going to do it for their own dead kin.

Again, you have more faith in humanity than I then. When faced with war and the loss of what they do still possess, I think most will calm the fuck down as they did in the books. Sure, it was a tense situation, but nothing a few years of distance and the lack of any agitating forces (like say, Bran and Rickon) couldn't solve. Well, keep underfoot for a generation or two until it calms down.

And if they weren't...good for them? Their men are dead, their armies are gone or made up of weak boys or old men or people who couldn't make it to the fight the first time around. And it's winter soon. Good luck rooting out Bolton who is both a capable commander in his own right and has experienced men behind him.

Short term thinking, again. In a few years their boys will be men.

And Bolton will have also replenished his forces as well as well as found potential allies, which he actually did in the book.

Did we mention that quite a few of the castles in the North (which is already sparsely populated) is under the control of Ironborn?

What castles? Deepwood Motte and Torrhen's Square (and probably not even Torrhen's Square, given that Rodrik Cassel took it back before returning to Winterfell, obviously alone)? That's two castles worth noting. Maybe some other podunk holdfasts of petty lords that aren't even worth naming? That's hardly problematic - Ironborn are poorly disciplined fighters, no match for northern armies pound for pound.

One man atop a castle wall is worth ten below and all that jazz. And the Ironborn are at least mostly grown men and fighters, last I heard Manderly was scraping the bottom of the barrel. Who is going to break first in an assault?

As for the castles they took, it's what's on the east coast. And it's just another lord that Bolton doesn't have to worry about. Or he could try to break them out and restore/put his own lord there but I doubt it (I can't quite remember what he did).

Spoiler

I don't think it's a coincidence that Tyrion and Tywin also discuss the murder of Elia and her children during this scene in the book. That was another brutal and effective measure that went too far and has long term consequences for the Lannisters. Its supposed to show that Tywin isn't actually omni-competant outside his bad parenting. He's brilliant, but everyone can make mistakes.

I guess I'm the only one who believed that he didn't do it? His reasoning seems pretty sound to me: there was no reason to do it at all. It was not "brutal and effective" it an unfortunate blunder by a piece going rogue.

I think we need Tyrion to slap Joffrey one last time before that.

Honestly, I'm looking forward to a scene where Tyrion has the realization that, oh shit, he's being a smart mouth to a sociopath that will hold him in the palm of his hand and will be able to completely crush him in a few years. And not only that, unlike Tywin, said sociopath is not going to tolerate his little japes. It's satisfying to see him talk down to Joffrey I guess but what leverage does he think he has exactly? He's the twisted monkey demon, Joff is the king.