Make a deal with the devil RAR

[Metahive]

This is inspired by Ahriman's genie thread.

The scenario:
You're fucked. You and your family (wife and two little children) are swamped in debt, criminals have stolen everything you owned, the state has put you unfairly on the terrorist list and you're sick with incurable cancer. In this situation the devil appears and proposes a deal:

1.He will grant you three wishes. He's made a bet with God Almighty and the Lord himself makes sure that all goes according to the rules laid down here.
2.For this scenario, the Devil can warp reality according to your wishes, with the exception noted under #3. God has given him that power for the duration of this deal
2.If any wish is fulfilled to your satisfaction, you are hellbound and become his after death for eternity
3.Neither the Devil nor God may be part of your wishes. If your wish affects either their nature or what they can and can't do, the whole deal is void
4.You can't make more or less than three wishes. You also have to make them all within a limited time window granted and watched by God Almighty (10 minutes). Exceeding that time limit voids the whole deal
5.Everything you say and everything you don't say will be used against you while making wishes, so you better be careful
6.You do not have to make any wishes, you can decline the offer

What's your decision? What do you wish for in case you accept the deal?


*this scenario presumes the catholic idea of God, Devil and their place in the universe

[Borgholio]

So be potentially damned for eternity for temporary relief? Well if I'm not allowed to wish for an escape clause or to live for an eternity (along with my family), I'd just die and take the (slim) chance I'd be going to heaven rather than a guaranteed trip to hell.

[Ahriman238]

What does 'to my satisfaction' mean in this case? If I wished for something like infinite wealth, and gained considerable but not unlimited resources, could I claim that he had not, in fact, delivered on our precise agreement? Or would my being reasonably satisfied with the outcome damn me?


As a purely practical consideration, I tell the Devil to fuck off. His presence and existence are more solid evidence than anyone has ever had for the existence of God, and an afterlife. In a straight choice between eternal paradise and the Big Fire Below, there really isn't that much to decide. Having inoperable cancer helps put things sharply into perspective too. Also, it seems I'm royally screwed either way, but at least with debt, disease and destitution I'm screwed by a system I can understand, and maybe game to help out my family. Dealing with supernatural forces warping reality, the rules as I understand them don't apply. So, (cringes) better the Devil I know.

Of course, then there isn't much room for discussion and a thought experiment. So please disregard the above while I try and figure how to con Old Scratch.

[Metahive]

"To your satisfaction" means you prefer whatever the Devil cooks up over the situation before. Also, it's only you who might suffer eternal damnation when making the deal, your family can reap whatever you wish for without any inherent penalty, don't forget that.

[Vendetta]

1. A perpetual end to all world poverty and suffering. This will naturally coincidentally include uplifting my family from their current situation.

2. The revelation in clear, empirically testable terms, immediately to all persons now living and available to all future generations that the sacrifice of my soul has accomplished this. By its nature this must empirically validate catholic theology (since that's where you find souls to be sacrificed in this manner) even without specifically naming God or the Devil, and cause the mass conversion of all to what has been revealed as the one true empirically testable and valid faith.

3. A really good pizza or something, I haven't had one of them in ages.

Since I have directly caused the temporal and spiritual salvation of all human beings now and forever, my soul will almost certainly be subject to a compulsory purchase order by higher spiritual authority, and if not the intercessory prayer of seven billion catholics will assure my assumption to heaven after a short introductory period of discomfort.

[Metahive]

2. The revelation in clear, empirically testable terms, immediately to all persons now living and available to all future generations that the sacrifice of my soul has accomplished this. By its nature this must empirically validate catholic theology (since that's where you find souls to be sacrificed in this manner) even without specifically naming God or the Devil, and cause the mass conversion of all to what has been revealed as the one true empirically testable and valid faith.

You cannot force a revelation without making God part of your wish. Besides even if that wish were waved through God would just undo it shortly after and erase the memory from everyone's minds. If he wanted to reveal himself in that manner he'd already have done so after all.

[Eternal_Freedom]

If I am the only one who will suffer damnation then the get-out clause is obvious.

1. Wish that whatever game of chance I play I win, allowing me to but a lottery ticket and win my way out of debt.
2. Wish for my family to be happy, healthy, and long lived.
3. The most important, wish to be immortal, as in physically indestructible and unaging. That way, I never die and never go to hell.

[TimothyC]

I reject the deal.

I probably end up quoting Job "I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth, And though worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God."

[Vendetta]

You cannot force a revelation without making God part of your wish. Besides even if that wish were waved through God would just undo it shortly after and erase the memory from everyone's minds. If he wanted to reveal himself in that manner he'd already have done so after all.

There's this book you might have heard of, it indicates in fairly clear terms that personal and general revelations have happened on a pretty regular basis. And within the terms of your OP, it is also 100% literal and infallible truth.

GG.

[Ralin]

Would asking to know exactly what my fate in hell would be after death if I take this deal violate rule number 3?

[Metahive]

There's this book you might have heard of, it indicates in fairly clear terms that personal and general revelations have happened on a pretty regular basis. And within the terms of your OP, it is also 100% literal and infallible truth.

GG.

If you're lucky then God and Devil will not only be from the Bible but also be from the specific catholic take on it and even then there's a difference from one religious revelation among many and one proven beyond reasonable doubt. If you're unlucky they're really Allah and Iblis (or Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu) and you forced a wrong revelation on all of mankind. All the "hard" info you have on them is the deal given to you, those rules apply. Everything else is your personal conjecture. Maybe you should wish to gain more information on them first before making a broad decision for all of mankind?

Would asking to know exactly what my fate in hell would be after death if I take this deal violate rule number 3?

No, it just would cost you a wish to find out. Knowledge is power after all.

[Ralin]

Wish 1) Give me foreknowledge of exactly what will happen to me after I die.

Wish 2) Damn everyone on earth, along with everyone who ever has lived or ever will live, to hell as if they had blasphemed against the Holy Spirit.

Wish 3) Due to Wish 1 I know exactly what will happen to me after death. As such I know whether this course of action has pleased the devil enough to reward me in the afterlife by not torturing me and generally giving me a happy eternity. If I have done so, I wish for happiness and comfort for the rest of my life. If I know I'm still going to be tortured I wish to be removed from existence completely.

Either way, God can suck it and watch his children reject him. I win.

[Zixinus]

I am tempted, even with trying to go with a "Wish that not even the Devil can fulfill" kind.

Like, "I wish that I have the ability to find ultimate happiness within 60 years". Since according to Christian theology, ultimate happiness can only be attained by going to Heaven, that is contradictory. But I can't figure a way to to phrase this well and I doubt I'll manage to do it properly either in 10 minutes.

Or, "My first wish, effective immideatly, is a mind that rival both that of a fallen and unfallen angel" is also a possibility, but that's still gambling.

Wishing to be able to outsmart the Devil is also probably cheating.

Thing is, that if the Devil and God visit me, both of these beings are immortal and the person I'd have to outsmart a being that is not has observed (if not manipulated) every intellectual development since time began, but is also the closest thing to eternal... well, the smartest thing to do seems not to play. I'd like to think that there is a mortal that can do a once-over old Horny-and-Forktailed, but I don't think it is me.

[fgalkin]

"Happiness for everybody, free, and may no one go unsatisfied."

Two other wishes as padding.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Zixinus]

Oh, and a question to the OP:

You're fucked. You and your family (wife and two little children) are swamped in debt, criminals have stolen everything you owned, the state has put you unfairly on the terrorist list and you're sick with incurable cancer.

Is this condition a result from you (the person making up the scenario) or actually a manipulation by God and the Devil? Or is this the whole "Has God ordained everything" chicken-egg question?

Or a more important question: are the "you're fucked" conditions entirely not your fault, so if I were to refuse the offer, I'd still get judged as the person I am now?

Because if I get into this fucked up situation not as my fault AND decide not to enter God's betting game with the Devil, how does that count for me when I get judged to go to Heaven or Hell (or Purgatory)? After all, I did resist the temptation of the Devil and took the hard path to suffering.

[Vendetta]

If you're lucky then God and Devil will not only be from the Bible but also be from the specific catholic take on it

Luck has nothing to do with it, you were denominationally specific in the OP. If you didn't want to give out information like that you shouldn't have specified that we were dealing with catholic theology.

[Lagmonster]

Wait a minute, it's Catholic God? Why not just use wish one to fix your life and then wish two to become the Pope? Can't the Pope do the whole 'loosed/bound on earth shall be loosed/bound in heaven' thing and thus pardon his own soul?

[RogueIce]

I say no and then go become the kind of Catholic that would make the Pope look like an unbeliever. Because now I know, without doubt, that the mortal suffering is only temporary and while it'll suck, I can actually look forward to an eternity of bliss without wondering if it's really true or not.

Plus the whole "resisting the temptation of the devil" while obviously passing through the trials the Lord has set out for me should also make me a shoe-in for Heaven when me and my family die. Pretty sure that's worked out well enough for a few people in the Bible, anyway.

[Omeros]

In this situation the only sensible thing to do is turn the deal down, as nothing is worth eternal damnation. Also, as I now have incontrovertible proof of the existence of God, I convert from atheism and become a True Believer, and hope for salvation (or at least a spell in Purgatory rather than Hell).

[Metahive]

If you're lucky then God and Devil will not only be from the Bible but also be from the specific catholic take on it

Luck has nothing to do with it, you were denominationally specific in the OP. If you didn't want to give out information like that you shouldn't have specified that we were dealing with catholic theology.

O right, forgot I put that in. So conceded on that point then. Well, God will reverse the revelation and remove it from everyone's memory afterwards because if he wanted to be revealed to the world like that, he'd already have done so and made everyone a Catholic. Your wish is wasted.

That goes for all these type of wishes. This is one of the reasons why God and the Devil are exempt from the effects of any wish. If your wish is majorly colliding with the intentions and behaviour God has demonstrated so far, he will undo it.

Plus the whole "resisting the temptation of the devil" while obviously passing through the trials the Lord has set out for me should also make me a shoe-in for Heaven when me and my family die. Pretty sure that's worked out well enough for a few people in the Bible, anyway.

Pride is a mortal sin and Jesus himself said that the first will be made the last by the Lord, so don't bet on that.

Wait a minute, it's Catholic God? Why not just use wish one to fix your life and then wish two to become the Pope? Can't the Pope do the whole 'loosed/bound on earth shall be loosed/bound in heaven' thing and thus pardon his own soul?

No, the Church can do the whole canonization business only after you have already kicked the bucket. A pope cannot declare himself beatified. Better hope that your successor considers doing it but the Devil only has to let slip through that you became pope through infernal means to throw a major spanner into that.

Is this condition a result from you (the person making up the scenario) or actually a manipulation by God and the Devil? Or is this the whole "Has God ordained everything" chicken-egg question?

Your situation has not been deliberately created by either God or the Devil.

[Tasoth]

In this situation the only sensible thing to do is turn the deal down, as nothing is worth eternal damnation.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. Since it wasn't stipulated in the OP that your wife and kids are not people you do not feel deep, true love for, I'd eat the damnation. Put a wish down that my loved ones will have safe and easy lives, that my descendants will be the type that help make the world a better place through solving its ills and the third one is that these wishes will not be corrupted by following the letter and not the spirit of the wish. Sure, not uplifting the making everyone a better person, but I've just gotten divine proof that things will be better.

[Formless]

Wait a minute, it's Catholic God? Why not just use wish one to fix your life and then wish two to become the Pope? Can't the Pope do the whole 'loosed/bound on earth shall be loosed/bound in heaven' thing and thus pardon his own soul?

No. Have you ever read Dante's Inferno? In Catholic theology, even the Pope is not immune from the threat of Hellfire if he makes a big enough ass of himself. And from Yahweh's perspective, there probably isn't going to be a bigger affront imaginable than someone conspiring with the Devil to fix a Papal election.

[Formless]

Ahahahaha. I just reread the OP, and I see a loophole. It says that my soul will only be damned if the wishes are fulfilled to my satisfaction. Whether or not the wish damns me depends on me being satisfied with the way it is carried out. I have control here-- all that I need to do is create an unrealistic standard in my head and then not tell the devil what that standard is. Turn it into a game of mind reading, and suddenly I can get anything that I want as long as its sub-par. And sub-par is arbitrary.

Its funny when something that's supposed to be a moral dilemma is broken by being the most manipulative bastard you can be. And if all else fails, attain a state of Zen (Hellfire Doesn't Smell so Bad After 80 Years or So).

Edit: and I know that Metahive said that as long as I prefer things the way they are after to the way they are before counts as "to my satisfaction", but how is the Devil to know what I prefer? By asking me, that's how. Actually, now that I think about it, if I am damned to hell, then by definition I am dissatisfied with my new situation. What a dumbass!

[Vaporous]

this sort of assumes the devil can't read your mind.

[Eternal_Freedom]

As I said, the better loophole is that you are only damned after death. So wish to become immortal and indestructible and you will never face damnation. Hell, you would make it into a game with the Devil as a separate wager, seeing who lives longer, me or the universe. And since I wished to become immortal/indestructible AND to win any game of chance I play, I can still beat him.