Senior Council vs The Ten Who Were Taken

[Gaidin]

I'm in no way suggesting the Warden's sword would do anything about the immortality. I'm more interested in just burning the body for that one out of the different solutions the White Council would be likely to try should they manage to incapacitate someone like one of the Ten, but that's neither here nor there. The swords are just the defenses. The phrase 'hot knife through butter' comes to mind. It's what turns it into a fight, at least to start while the First Law is on the table, as opposed to a massacre by the Ten.

Once it's realized they're immortal, if they're immortal, if the White Council would even consider them human if it were to come up in a trial is questionable.

[Keevan_Colton]

The wardens swords are enchanted to cut through magical wards and protections...though, of more interesting note is that they're also quite happy to carry explosives and guns. Able to stand up to punishment in a medieval/fantasy setting and being able to do so in a more modern one are somewhat different orders of magnitude. I'm mostly reminded of the part in Buffy, "no weapon forged by mortal man" and the consideration that back then anti-tank weapons weren't a thing...

Kemmler seems to be very much D&D high end lich material. He was working on his Vecna-esque ascent to Godhood thing with the Darkhallow ritual. There's also the implication that WW1 and WW2 were mostly just the mundane side of what was going on with the council taking him on.

To be honest, the level the Taken are being described at and the things attributed to them reminds me a lot of the Denarians more than anything else in the Dresdenverse. Anyone else seeing some parallels?

[Imperial Overlord]

High end explosives will fuck up the Taken, but I wouldn't really on guns. Nonmagical arrows mostly piss them off and they've deflected artillery fire (ballistas and the like). Honestly, the Council doesn't sound like they're in the Taken's league. They're very powerful, almost unkillable demigods. Now if the Council has access to significant military assets as well as their own magical abilities, the unsubtle Taken like the Limper will be fucked. Shapeshifter and Soulcatcher, on the other hand, will go to ground and work up some truly nasty surprises.

[Keevan_Colton]

Also, something to note, given that it was 1961 that they finally ended Kemmler, and Jim Butchers love of hidden little details:

Tsar Bomba, October 30, 1961 — largest nuclear weapon ever detonated, with a yield of 57 Mt.

The Darkhallow ritual to ascend to godhood needed to be done on Halloween...

[Malivotti]

Which tells me he could be killed seven times and that the Council sucks at permadeathing a powerful wizard. It doesn't tell me how hard it is to kill him.

It would be hard to give an exact feel for how dangerous Kemmler is since the events of the war with Kemmler happened off scene in the Dresden Files. The spell that Gaidin spoke of is called the Darkhollow, a ritual that would have killed everyone in Chicago and turned whoever cast it into a being of Godlike power. Kemmler's power is supposed to be on the level of Queen Mab.

The best way to describe how insanely powerful we'd be talking about I'd have to metagame a bit.

So if you all will indulge me.

First going by the Dresden Files RPG (plug, plug ) and just using the rules for Evocation (fast and dirty combat magic) a Wizard of Harry Dresden's skill as of Storm Front can very easily cast a spell with a Weapon:4 power. Weapon:4 power is equal to being shot by a .50cal machine gun bullet or having a hand grenade go off in your face by the DFRPG rules. The same beginning Wizard could with a little challenge make an Evocation attack with Weapon:6, Weapon:6 would be a tank round, artillery shell or such.
Now looking up Rashid, the Gatekeeper of the Senior Council by the DFRPG stats the Gatekeeper at a conservative level, any Evocation the Gatekeeper could fire off starts between Weapon:9 to Weapon:13. Please note this is a conservative number. So the upper range for the Gatekeeper is uhm, well bunker buster comes to mind. With some skill and luck you could add +4 to Weapon Rating, and attack whole areas with a spell that would be equal to a conventional B-52 bomb run every time you attack or a time on target artillery strike. This does not cover any magical trinkets that could add to the power or control of the attack making it even more deadly.

Now Kemmler fought all seven of the Senior Council, all the Wardens of the White Council, plus any ally the White Council could grab. Kemmler had is own allies and apprentices, but very likely Kemmler himself would have been at the end fighting against the Senior Council and the most hard case Wardens, Luccio, Morgan and the rest of the Warden brute squad.

So we can assume conservatively that each exchange of spells would be the equivalent being hit with 250-500 lbs bombs, or several tank rounds. Kemmler could withstand several such hits, in each exchange from the Council. Which is why the Council to permadeath him had to kill him seven times, for Kemmler to die for real he HAD to be ritually killed. Normal death doesn't stick to him.

Now none of the Ten I think would be stupid enough to just stand there and get hammered, some of them might be crazy enough...

However the Senior Council is short on combat experience, the most experienced Wizard in combat is the Gatekeeper, likely followed by Simon Petrovich (was in charge of the Warden Brute Squad), then likely Listens to the Wind. The Ten understand the knife in the back approach as well as the in your face approach, and Senior Council's raw power would likely make the Ten agree focus on the Council totally for the fight. If the Taken can get the Council off balance they'll win, Stormbringer would be good for that.

Thinking about it, pretty much if such fight happened all I can say is I'd prefer to watch from very far away, in a deep bunker on pay per view.

[Imperial Overlord]

So Kemmler had an unknown number of allies of unknown power when he fought the Senior Council offscreen? That makes him of limited use as a benchmark. It does seem, as per usual, the more subtle Taken will be the most effective. Even The Limper can intrigue fairly well when his temper doesn't make him a blind bull in a China shop, but a Shapeshifter ambush, imp minions (not a fucking joke in the Black Company), or a bringing through something like Toadkiller Dog (smart, shapeshifting, nearly unkillable demon) would be the way that would really fuck the Council. So, as usual, Shapeshifter and Soulcatcher are the really dangerous ones.

[Ted C]

Someone knowing a person's name is dangerous in The Dresden Files as well, so its a familiar threat, but it usually requires knowing their full name. As I know little about the Taken, can you tell me weather they require a full name to harm someone?

Pretty much. Both given name and surname seem to be required.

[Imperial Overlord]

Someone knowing a person's name is dangerous in The Dresden Files as well, so its a familiar threat, but it usually requires knowing their full name. As I know little about the Taken, can you tell me weather they require a full name to harm someone?

Pretty much. Both given name and surname seem to be required.

For naming magic they need both. It's not something they rely on, because sorcerers in that setting go through a lot of effort to bury their names, but it can be so devastating that they hunt down any clue to a sorcerer's true name.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I forgot, it's been a while since I read the Black Company books, which one is the Psycho Sister of the Lady, who can still run around with her HEAD REMOVED, and then go back to being super deadly after she forced croaker to sew it back on.....

[Imperial Overlord]

I forgot, it's been a while since I read the Black Company books, which one is the Psycho Sister of the Lady, who can still run around with her HEAD REMOVED, and then go back to being super deadly after she forced croaker to sew it back on.....

Soulcatcher

[The Yosemite Bear]

It's been a while since I read the books like I said, but like I said books of the south give an idea of how much raw punishment the taken were capable of taking in. EG Limper being knocked down but still mobile and having to go away to heal after getting hit with a balista bolt that was specifically designed to kill him, Soul Catcher showing up several books after she lost her head,

[Ralin]

However the Senior Council is short on combat experience, the most experienced Wizard in combat is the Gatekeeper, likely followed by Simon Petrovich (was in charge of the Warden Brute Squad), then likely Listens to the Wind.

I haven't read the Black Company books yet, but I do know the Dresdenverse. Where are you getting that ranking from? I'm pretty sure McCoy has been stated to be the strongest member of Senior Council in terms of raw magical ass-kicking ability. And that's not taking into account that he's the Blackstaff, i.e., the Council's wetworks man and only member allowed to break the Laws of Magic as he sees fit.

EDIT:

Ah, here we go. From page 339 of Changes (Kindle edition):

Ebenezar was generally considered the heavyweight champion of the wizarding world when it came to direct, face-to-face mayhem. And I was one of the relatively few people who knew he was also the Blackstaff--the White Council's officially nonexistent hit man, authorized to ignore the Laws of Magic when he deemed it necessary. The old man had fought pretty much everything that put up a fight at one point or another, and he didn't make a habit of complimenting anyone's skills.

[White Haven]

The problem is timeline; McCoy isn't Senior Council yet by the OP. For a throwdown like this, he should be involved, but that's another story.

[Gaidin]

He's still the Blackstaff though. Its why dresden is given to his custody after trial. When this happens he'll be involved. Anyway, my point was never to argue that the Ten would lose. Just that there'd be a fight instead of a slaughter.

[Murazor]

The problem is timeline; McCoy isn't Senior Council yet by the OP. For a throwdown like this, he should be involved, but that's another story.

*shrugs*

When I made the thread, I actually intended him to be there. Didn't remember that he entered the SC as a replacement for Whatisname.

So if you think that his presence adds to the debate, feel free to toss Ebenezer in.

[Ralin]

The problem is timeline; McCoy isn't Senior Council yet by the OP. For a throwdown like this, he should be involved, but that's another story.

Right, that had slipped my mind. Just seemed like a glaring omission.