The Seanchan invade Republic City

[mr friendly guy]

Because only I demanded it...

At the last battle just prior to when the Seanchan are to commit the bulk of their troops, due to an act of a contrived plot, all of them from their channellers, Tuon, including the Deathwatch guard accompanying Mat are transported to the World of Avatar the Last Airbender. Mat of course stays back in the WoT verse. The Seanchan transported include only the ones in "Randland" and not their troops from their home continent.

The Seanchan get their infrastructure, ships and people which they had conquered - ie the islands of the Aile Somera and Aile Jafar, plus the kingdoms of Tarabon, Amadicia and Altara. A new land mass is created East of the Earth kingdom (making it West of the fire nation) in the same shape of the countries the Seanchan occupy. Lets put the distance between this new land mass and its westernmost point to the Earth Kingdom at its easternmost point at around 100 kilometres. Min end ups with them.

There are no portal stones, and gateways still work, but will not take them back to the world of the wheel of time.

After adjusting to the shock, within a week Tuon loses her face (heh heh heh) but a solution is quickly found. Since Tuon has the potential to be a sul'dam, she is connected to an damane who then speaks for her. Min is summoned to see if her visions can help, and what she sees over Tuon's head is a macabre image of a giant centipede creature with several faces. A few scouting parties sent by the Seanchan using gateways investigate the Earth Kingdom, and find out that some people recognise the image. It is Koh the face stealer, and he has been defeated before, twice. By someone known as the Avatar. After questioning, the find that the current Avatar is Korra and she resides in Republic city. So the Seanchan send an invasion force to bring this avatar to heal the Empress.

Meanwhile in Republic city, it is 3 months since Korra has defeated Amon and regain her bending after going into the Avatar state. Soon reports arrive of strange people with even stranger animals. People who are definitely hostile.

What happens next? For the purpose of this discussion, the one power and bending are totally different. So benders cannot see the weaves, and a'dam cannot bind benders.

[Murazor]

If the Seanchan are playing hardball, there is essentially nothing whatsoever short of Spirit shenanigans in an unprecedentedly massive scale that can seriously inconvenience them in doing whatever they want to do.

[mr friendly guy]

Can you elaborate a bit more? The Seanchan might have an advantage in sneak attacks - channellers vs benders, but if an Earthbender causes the ground to throw a channeller up several metre in the air, they are going to die. Its not like Avatarverse humans who can somehow take lots of damage. The force will injure or kill normal humans.

I am also not sure how well most damane will handle a giant rock thrown at them. I don't recall even Demandred throwing a giant rock at Gawyn. Most of the destructive attacks come from throwing fire, lightning etc, and I don't think a lightning bolt or fire is going to stop a giant rock. They might have some air weaves,, strong enough so that even a strong human can't break out of, but that certainly isn't enough to lift giant rocks.

So once the other nations start mobilising, I think the war is going to really heat up, and the Seanchan are going to feel pain. I doubt wooden sailing ships even with channellers are much match for metal steam powered ships.

Although I would like Korra to do what Aang did in the Avatar state, where he had enough power to destroy large chunks of the steam powered metal ships of the Fire nation navy.

[madd0ct0r]

air weaves can be used to propel sailing ships. maybe not enough to catch a rock, but enough to deflect it

[mr friendly guy]

How will channellers handle the rock coming up from under their feet. Bumi could bend earth strong enough to hurl tanks several metres in the air without breaking a sweat.

[Murazor]

How will channellers handle the rock coming up from under their feet. Bumi could bend earth strong enough to hurl tanks several metres in the air without breaking a sweat.

Bumi was also the strongest earthbender of the age, with the possible exception of Toph (she developed metalbending and was a top earthbender, but Bumi did stuff in a scale that Toph was not shown to match), and roughly a zillion times greater than any known bender of the LoK period.

[mr friendly guy]

To be fair, by LoK we don't see situations where the earth benders can hurl that much rock. They are either on the war ships without much to hurl, in pro bending tournaments (same limitation applies). I would have to watch the last episode again because I recall Bolin bending quite a bit of rock against those mecha. Lin Bei Fong of course can bend shit loads of earth, both when they are on a "train" escaping the Equalists (she bends the road out the way) and in the end when Korra heals her bending.

I do feel that if they get hit by the earth moving up, it would still be game over. It doesn't need to be hard, it just needs to be like what Korra did to knock out Amon's henchmen in episode 3. Just enough to send someone flying into the wall. A real world human would be utterly screwed, seriously injured if not dead. Avatarverse humans seem to be able to take more damage. Assuming most WoT humans are closer to real world humans, I doubt damane or sul'dam are going to enjoy that happening.

[madd0ct0r]

if you're so certain, why bother asking other people?

[mr friendly guy]

if you're so certain, why bother asking other people?

To see if people can come up with tactics I haven't thought of. For example I suggested throwing giant rocks, you point out they might be strong enough to deflect it. I then suggest a different tactic eg uplifting the earth beneath the opponent. If someone has another tactic for the Seanchan to use, then I will rack my brains and try and come up with a counter to that, and so on. If anything this will give me ideas on how the two sides will fight each other.

[Murazor]

Having now finished the book for good.

The Seanchan, pre-Last Battle, bring to the table several hundred thousand soldiers -perhaps in the order of half a million-, many hundreds to perhaps a few thousand channelers, hundreds of ships that would have been primitive by the standards set by the Fire Nation at the beginning of the Hundred Year War and a respectably large air force.

In terms of miscellaneous crap, they have a bunch of Ogier and might have some magic ninja assassins in stock. Or they might not.

The real force multiplier, of course, are the channelers. Leaving aside the multi-element abilities that are going to make people think they face an army of Avatars, they outrange benders by a large amount and have a number of exotic abilities that the Avatarverse has no adequate counter for, the main one being obviously the ability to make teleportation portals.

[Napoleon the Clown]

And taking glee in spamming lightning and fireballs (and spontaneous combustion) until they feel good about themselves. Or you're dead. Whichever. Considering there are Aes Sedai among the damane they also have access to linking if things get too hairy. At which point you're gonna have WMDs walking around.

The Seanchan in the Westlands are a conquering army that's quite willing to go total warfare and level a good portion of a city if that's what it takes. And they also have a fondness for urban combat. Are Benders willing to level their city even more? Especially when it turns out the invaders will basically just replace the leaders and otherwise let you go about your business? The Seanchan come down heavy on rebellion, yes, but they don't seem to do anything that would make the average person want to revolt. They don't kill random people for amusement, they don't tax people to within an inch of their life... The average person wouldn't see any meaningful difference in day-to-day life.

[Murazor]

Especially when it turns out the invaders will basically just replace the leaders and otherwise let you go about your business? The Seanchan come down heavy on rebellion, yes, but they don't seem to do anything that would make the average person want to revolt. They don't kill random people for amusement, they don't tax people to within an inch of their life... The average person wouldn't see any meaningful difference in day-to-day life.

Err...

That's the Seanchan at their very best.

As a society, they are fucked up in a grand scale and they just lost 1) a chance to retake their homeland, 2) a chance to reconquer Hawkwing's old empire, 3) a chance to fight against the Dark One in the Last Battle, 4) the husband of their empress and 5) the face of their empress. Who is a bit of a bitch in her best day.

Unless Min talks some sense into the proceedings, things are going to crap and fast.

[mr friendly guy]

How powerful is a channeller without any angreals or sa'angreals? Taim could hold enough energy to destroy a small farm, which Rand judges to be close to his strength (book 6). Female channellers would be weaker. Rand could shield Elayne and Egwene easily enough when they were testing to see if he could detect saidar. Both women are considered strong in the power.

We know linked channellers are more powerful, but again I don't remember any obviously way to gauge in real world terms how powerful. Moreover, can damane even link to one another? I thought the a'dam makes them linked to the sul'dam only. In fact going on http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Circle

When linked, channelers combine their strength in the power to a certain degree, which is directed by the leader of the circle. The power of the leader of the circle is stronger than his individual power, but less than the cumulative power of all the channelers in the circle. This is because linking does not stack the power of channelers on top of each other, but rather combines it in a way that only allows a portion of their power to be contributed to the weaving.
This combination of strength, though useful, is not the main benefit of a link. If they are not linked, no two channelers can combine their flows to work on the same weave. The leader of a link is able to do so, directing multiple flows of great power at a single weave, allowing for weaves that are impossible or extremely difficult for individual channelers.

So linking will allow a more skilled person to do weaves which they would normally lack the strength to do, and allow the less skilled person to contribute some of their strength to the more skilled person.

Also keep in mind, not all channellers are great with all the five powers in the one power. In the glossary its rare for a channeller to be strong in 2 powers. For example " Men are generally stronger with Fire and Earth, while women are generally stronger with Air and Water; significant strength in Spirit is distributed equally, and relatively rare in either. Great strength in all Five Powers has been unknown since the Age of Legends. Even then it was extremely rare." So even then, most damane will be stronger in maybe say 2 elements.

The other thing about this vs we haven't touched on, is the technology. The Avatarverse has steam powered metal ships, the fire nation during the time of Aang has a gelignite equivalent, tanks and airforce (albeit Zeppelins rather than planes).

My gut feeling is to give it to the avatarverse, but its good that people think otherwise. It allows for some discussion especially if we try to quantify as best as possible.

[madd0ct0r]

I think we have to remember that the wheel of time powers =/= elements (eg look at healing in the wheel of time)

Still, I'm leaning to the idea the Seanchan will have trouble in a direct assault. It's been a long time since I read the books, would they be capable of adapting to a guerilla war?

[Mr Bean]

Still, I'm leaning to the idea the Seanchan will have trouble in a direct assault. It's been a long time since I read the books, would they be capable of adapting to a guerilla war?

The Seanchan method of dealing with guerilla warfare is collective punishment, they send people who won't swear to do backbreaking grunt work and behead troublemakers or sell them into slavery. Fresh slaves get the closest thing to a massive indoctrination program heavy on the mental torture and brainwashing. Troublesome slaves end up dead.

Dedicated guerrilla armies they have trouble with but will devote more than enough resources to quell the problem.

[Simon_Jester]

I have little to say about this conflict, but...

I'm curious. What's with the "lose face" puns? Is there some particular reason why these guys' empress should lose her face because of going from one world to another?

[Vendetta]

I'm curious. What's with the "lose face" puns? Is there some particular reason why these guys' empress should lose her face because of going from one world to another?

The OP states that she runs into Koh the Face Stealer as the impetus for the conflict, which is a being in the spirit world in Avatar which, well, steals peoples faces. If you show emotion to it it can steal your face for its collection (as described, it's a large centipede looking thing with a human face at one end, it can change its face to any of the ones it has stolen at will), leaving you with a blank expanse of skin where yours used to be. Oh, and also dead. Which is rather a problem.

[mr friendly guy]

I have little to say about this conflict, but...

I'm curious. What's with the "lose face" puns? Is there some particular reason why these guys' empress should lose her face because of going from one world to another?

The how - Koh the Face Stealer
The why - I dislike the Seanchan, more so than the typical slave holding civ in fantasy, because of their hypocrisy. Plus I don't really find Tuon a sympathetic character. Also Koh loves people's faces, and the Seanchan don't look like people in the Avatarverse.

[Vehrec]

Here's a question-does Chi-blocking affect channelers? Could the Equalist's remaining members, who presumeably vanished into the crowds, get out the old lightning fists and go to town on any invaders? Are there any mecha left operational? How many bombers and war-zeppelins? How many ships have been salvaged from the failed first wave of Iroh's attack?

[mr friendly guy]

Good question. Lets assume that Asami manages to salvage some mecha, but only in small numbers. Say 20 tops. There are still planes, but it will take time to train people in their use, unlike the mecha which was purposely designed to be similar to the company's usual stuff. Also its 6 months since the battle, so the alliance can send more ships into the fray. Bumi for example still has his fleet.

I am incline to rule that Chi-blocking doesn't do anything to channellers except in the sense that some blows can knock people out, eg what Amon did to Korra. Other than that, they will feel pain, but can still channel. If its a knock out blow, they will lose consciousness.