Dresden Cold Days Nov 27th

[Steve]

As I'm tired from work I won't write a more in depth analysis, but suffice to say I loved it and it seems Bucher's starting the home stretch to the final showdown.

[Alkaloid]

Spoiler

Well, those positions have only existed since the time of Merlin, I imagine the role of Gatekeeper at least was 'formalised' at around the time the Unseelie Accords were written, and she can't always guarantee the White Councils agenda will line up with hers. And for the the Winter Knight he is the only one of her minions she can directly command (as far as I can tell, other Fae have no issues killing mortals, see the Redcap, Mab just can't order it) to kill a mortal, but that's far from all he does. She's already started using Harry to consolidate her hold on her own court, and fully embracing it seemed to give Harry the ability to take the Redcap out of the fight as an afterthought, even before he started using magic. The Winter Knight seems to be Mabs all purpose hitman and enforcer, the Hendricks to Mabs Marcone, (Actually, given Harry and Hendricks are both far smarter and have more influence on their employer than they are given credit for I really like that analogy) and I would imagine acts as her champion for all duels under the rules of the Unseelie Accords and similar circumstances (like her 'no blood shed in the ballroom' violations)

[LadyTevar]

Finally read it.

When they got to what's Demonsreach is my reaction was to put the book down and loose a string of OMGWTF curses.
This was repeated during the meeting with the Mothers.
And again at Kringle's last words.

But, the one thing that is REALLY bugging me is this: WHY ARE THEY CALLING HIM STARBORN?

[Steve]

It probably has something to do with what Lash mentioned to him just before her Heroic Sacrifice in "White Night".

[Malivotti]

But, the one thing that is REALLY bugging me is this: WHY ARE THEY CALLING HIM STARBORN?

Harry Dresden was born on Halloween giving him the ability to affect Outsiders with his magic. Oddly enough Elaine Mallory shares the same birthday and was also 'adopted' by Justin DuMorne.

He Who Walks Behind refered to Harry as child of the stars in Ghost Story I think.

To add to the birthday wackiness Thomas Harry's brother was born on Valentine's Day.

Previous to this little tidbit the only spellcasters that have gone toe-to-toe with an Outsider(s) and lived was the Merlin and Ebenezer McCoy in Dead Beat, and McCoy and Micheal Carpenter in Proven Guilty, the Mistfiend in Turn Coat needed the entire Senior Council to deal with it.

[Gaidin]

When they got to what's Demonsreach is my reaction was to put the book down and loose a string of OMGWTF curses.
This was repeated during the meeting with the Mothers.
And again at Kringle's last words.

I'm going to have to go back and read the series again in the context of Cold Days now.

[LadyTevar]

When they got to what's Demonsreach is my reaction was to put the book down and loose a string of OMGWTF curses.
This was repeated during the meeting with the Mothers.
And again at Kringle's last words.

I'm going to have to go back and read the series again in the context of Cold Days now.

I think you've got the right idea

[Broomstick]

Spoiler

Odin and Kringle appear to be connected

Spoiler

Of course they're connected - much of the mythology around Santa Claus - who is, of course, who Kringle is - stems from Odin in our world just as many of the traditional Anglosphere Christmas trappings are linked to old Northern Europe/German customs in regard to Yule/Solstice celebrations. Kringle is Odin, there's no doubt in my mind.

[Alkaloid]

Spoiler

Of course they're connected - much of the mythology around Santa Claus - who is, of course, who Kringle is - stems from Odin in our world just as many of the traditional Anglosphere Christmas trappings are linked to old Northern Europe/German customs in regard to Yule/Solstice celebrations. Kringle is Odin, there's no doubt in my mind.

Spoiler

Not likely, connected, and similar, but Kringle is a Fae and Odin isn't, or is unlikely to be given that Harry can test hair and confirm that it's from a Malk on Sigruns iron axe. Unless powerful fae are now in the habit of spending a lot of time around iron.

[Malivotti]

From Cold Days;
Spoiler

“Maybe you’ll try,” Kringle replied amiably. He looked out at the lightening sky and let out a satisfied breath. “It was Halloween, Dresden. You put on a mask for a time. That’s all.” He looked directly at me and said, “Many, many mantles are worn—or discarded—on Halloween night, wizard.”
“You mean masks?” I asked, frowning.
“Masks, mantles,” Kringle said. “What’s the difference?”
He winked at me.
And for the briefest fraction of a second, the shadows falling from the tower and the cottage in the gathering morning behind us seemed to flow together. The eye he winked with vanished behind a stripe of shadow and what looked like a wide scar. His face seemed leaner, and for that instant I saw Vadderung’s wolfish features lurking inside Kringle’s.

Spoiler

Maybe the Job of Kris Kringle is just that a job that Odin assumes when is needed, the legend of Kris Kringle may have power from all those kids that Odin might be able to tap into, which may explain why he's the most active god we've seen to date.

[Darth Yan]

I think that Spoiler

Nemesis

brought the BC together, and that he's made several attempts at the end game.
take on Queen Mab, so it would be a waste if they don't show up.

I also think the Black Court elders (or one of them) will show up. 30 of them are strong enough to take on Queen Mab, so it would be a waste if they don't show up. I believe the same about Drakul, Kincaid's boss.

I am annoyed we don't actually meet Maggie. the kid hasn't had a single line of dialogue yet has been the catalyst for the last three books.

[LadyTevar]

From Cold Days; Spoiler

Maybe the Job of Kris Kringle is just that a job that Odin assumes when is needed, the legend of Kris Kringle may have power from all those kids that Odin might be able to tap into, which may explain why he's the most active god we've seen to date.

I believe you hit the nail on the head here, sir. Besides a fine hunt, it gave this gentleman a legitimate excuse to be nearby when needed, without giving the game away to Dresden.

As I said, I am going back and re-reading the prior novels to see all the hints we missed as 'minor'. I have found that "Grave Peril" is where the Leansidhe was given the infection. That novel also gives another suggestion for the "parasite" -- Leonid Kraven, aka The Nightmare. Kraven attached Dresden inside his own head, and Dresden devoured him. Almost immediately after, Dresden used one of Kraven's spells, almost without thinking.

[Malivotti]

I believe you hit the nail on the head here, sir. Besides a fine hunt, it gave this gentleman a legitimate excuse to be nearby when needed, without giving the game away to Dresden.

That was the plan that Kringle and the Erlking had, to lose the fight to Dresden so Dresden would have the power of the Wild Hunt, plus the Power of Kris Kringle and the Erlking for the fight.

From Cold Days Spoiler

“Hey,” I said.
He turned to me pleasantly.
“The whole Winter Knight thing,” I said. “It’s made me stronger.”
“True enough,” he said.
“But not that much stronger,” I said. “You could have beaten me last night.”
“Oh?” Kringle’s smile faded—except from his eyes.
“And I’ve seen goblins move a few times,” I said. “The Erlking could have gotten out of the way of that shot.”
“Really?”
“You meant me to have the Wild Hunt.”
“No one can be given a power like the Wild Hunt, Dresden,” Kringle said. “He can only take it.”
“Really?” I said, as drily as I knew how.
That got another laugh from Kringle. “You have guts and will, mortal. It had to be shown, or the Hunt would never have accepted you.”

Which makes me wonder if the Erlking is a member of the Grey Council, we know that Odin is. I suspect that the Leanansidhe is also a member of the Grey Council since she is the one that summoned the Grey Council to the fight at Chichen Itza.

As I said, I am going back and re-reading the prior novels to see all the hints we missed as 'minor'. I have found that "Grave Peril" is where the Leansidhe was given the infection. That novel also gives another suggestion for the "parasite" -- Leonid Kraven, aka The Nightmare. Kraven attached Dresden inside his own head, and Dresden devoured him. Almost immediately after, Dresden used one of Kraven's spells, almost without thinking.

(whispers, um his name was Leonid Kravos.)

That is something I hadn't considered...Hmm. Thank you for that new bit to consider.

My thought on the "parasite" is it's Lash coming back, since wizards cells repair perfectly, Dresden's brain cells that got destroyed in White Knight where Lash was stored might have regenerated to the point that the copy of Lash might be reforming.

But Kravos...Hmm. If it's Kravos and he was infected by Nemesis when Dresden 'ate' Kravos then could Dresden have been a magical Typhoid Mary? Which brings up who has Dresden infected? Lara Raith? Molly? Murphy?

[Gaidin]

The problem with Kravos being that he was always a magical amateur, sort of the corruption testing the waters in the first books. He's not the kind of person with the negotiating ability to go toe to toe with Demonreach and Mab and strike a deal, much less be smart enough to ask for secrecy as a requirement. Lash on the other hand, is more in line with that idea especially when she's demonstrated willingness to help if for no better reason than preservation of the host.

[LadyTevar]

Just one more possible parasite, just to play Devil's Advocate:
Dresden's got a very vocal "subconcious". One that not only talks back, but gives advice and doubledteamed Lash when Dresden figured out what she was.

[Gaidin]

I think the issue there is Dresden's subconscious generally isn't something that we could call hostile and describe as a parasite. Those two work together, even if at times that amounts to his id sucking him into a lecture room in his brain and bitch smacking him for being an idiot, albeit when he's sleeping. Causing a migraine for no apparent reason would be against interests. The thing to remember is that the word parasite is actually used. His id isn't such a thing. Anything he's played a mental game with, though, could be.

[Broomstick]

From Cold Days; Spoiler

Maybe the Job of Kris Kringle is just that a job that Odin assumes when is needed, the legend of Kris Kringle may have power from all those kids that Odin might be able to tap into, which may explain why he's the most active god we've seen to date.

I believe you hit the nail on the head here, sir. Besides a fine hunt, it gave this gentleman a legitimate excuse to be nearby when needed, without giving the game away to Dresden.

In the real world (such as it is), there was a long association between the Aesir and the Elves, and there is also a tradition of Odin leading the Wild Hunt. So even if Odin is not an Elf he sure does seem to be buddies with them. Given that Odin was the God of storms, war, and part of the dead (the Valhalla contingent) if he's going to be associated with Elves in the Dresdenverse I find it easier to see him in the Winter camp than the Summer.

[Alkaloid]

Spoiler

Yeah, the issue I have declaring the same is that it makes it all to complicated. If Kringle and Odin are the same being, then they are likely Uriel as well (given Mother Summer implied she and Mother winter are sometimes referred to by one name, and that Harry hadn't twigged to the most powerful, and the only being we have even really heard of so far that comes close to matching one, let alone both of them, is the White God) because he's the best fit for the role from what we know of the archangels. That and Kringle is a fae, and one of the few concrete rules about fae is that they are always fae, their nature simply does not change.

One of the more interesting things though is that this has really opened up the floor for who is on the grey council. Prior to this it was always assumed Ferrovax was a member of the black, given his presence at the party which seemed to be a meeting but is looking more like a trojan ballroom now, but I think theres good odds on him already being a member of the grey council now, given that he is in the same league as Mab power wise, and you do not get to that level of grunt without some brains to back it up in the dresdenverse, I doubt he was nabbed. I don't think anyone from winter is actually a member but a few of the more influential fae are aware it exists, same with the archangels and likely the denarians. I doubt summer know whats really going on at all now, they are starting to seem more like the kid who sits in the corner trying to stuff a radish in his ear while everyone else is kicking a ball around, although Titania and the older two gruffs might have an inkling. Lara no, good odds on her being infected given her sudden power grab, Marcone no, unaware of what's going on beyond Chicago, most of the senior council yes, our new fishy friends probably not. Mavra I think probably yes, shes nasty but not stupid and has no stake in reality being destroyed. Thats the real kicker, monsters are not necessarily bad guys anymore simply because they live in the world too, and the grey council might bring them in for the same reason the wardens drafted Harry, some of them are pretty big sticks and pretty subtle to boot.

I'm thinking starborn is more specific than born on Halloween as well, and I'm betting Mac was the last person to be one, and he traded the ability to interfere with events in exchange for immortality or something similar. Likely to end up being Ulysses or someone equally famous.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Spoiler

I remember reading something about Harry's birth/date being set by his mother, with his being born on that date/"Stars alligned" causing his ability to affect/effect Outsiders. (Explaining why he managed to defeat He Who Walks Behind, which was probably pretty damn nasty, while only a teenager. AKA "StarBorn".
And explaining a lot about his mother's plans for him, and why Justine DeMorne would have been so eager to gain power over him.
(Although a 1/365 chance would mean that there are a fair number of other wizards and paras out there. Isn't the Paranet in the tens of thousands?)

EDIT: White Night, Lasciel mentions it.

[Gaidin]

Spoiler

Yeah, the issue I have declaring the same is that it makes it all to complicated. If Kringle and Odin are the same being, then they are likely Uriel as well (given Mother Summer implied she and Mother winter are sometimes referred to by one name, and that Harry hadn't twigged to the most powerful, and the only being we have even really heard of so far that comes close to matching one, let alone both of them, is the White God) because he's the best fit for the role from what we know of the archangels. That and Kringle is a fae, and one of the few concrete rules about fae is that they are always fae, their nature simply does not change.

Spoiler

Kringle can still be Odin mostly because Odin isn't a fae and thus can lie in that sense. Hell Mab would let him lead Harry on like that in her domain for her own amusement if nothing else. As far as Broomstick's comment about him being in the winter's camp I would ask for clarification on if that means that Odin is Winter or is merely working a lot with winter. The type of god Odin is, the type of work Winter does, it's pretty damn believable that he'd be all in on ending the war with the Red Court as soon as possible if he thought the Outsiders were making a move, and he'd be all in on fighting the Outsiders besides in the same fashion the Gatekeepers is.

Spoiler

One of the more interesting things though is that this has really opened up the floor for who is on the grey council. Prior to this it was always assumed Ferrovax was a member of the black, given his presence at the party which seemed to be a meeting but is looking more like a trojan ballroom now, but I think theres good odds on him already being a member of the grey council now, given that he is in the same league as Mab power wise, and you do not get to that level of grunt without some brains to back it up in the dresdenverse, I doubt he was nabbed. I don't think anyone from winter is actually a member but a few of the more influential fae are aware it exists, same with the archangels and likely the denarians. I doubt summer know whats really going on at all now, they are starting to seem more like the kid who sits in the corner trying to stuff a radish in his ear while everyone else is kicking a ball around, although Titania and the older two gruffs might have an inkling. Lara no, good odds on her being infected given her sudden power grab, Marcone no, unaware of what's going on beyond Chicago, most of the senior council yes, our new fishy friends probably not. Mavra I think probably yes, shes nasty but not stupid and has no stake in reality being destroyed. Thats the real kicker, monsters are not necessarily bad guys anymore simply because they live in the world too, and the grey council might bring them in for the same reason the wardens drafted Harry, some of them are pretty big sticks and pretty subtle to boot.

Spoiler

I like your ideas of bad guys not being so bad anymore because the destroyed world isn't very good to them. We may be seeing Harry working with Denarians in the future. We may see him working with Demons. It's all about the Outsiders now, though those more traditional bad guys until things are slightly more desperate will still be making their traditional power grabs as they work. I think things would have to be a lot more desperate for it to shift to "Ok beat the outsider, squabble over the field of rubble". I take some slight issue with the idea of Summer being that child in the corner though. We just see them so little we can't say anything definitive. Lily actually was working actively, though that ended with being on the tail end of a con. Mother Summer and Winter have sort of been established as those ones that will be sitting up there looking down at the overall strategic map and giving it nudges in the form of the right advice at the right time to the right person, not counting whatever else they might do. I feel sorry for whoever provokes them to actually leave their house, honestly speaking. The nature of Summer is interesting though. It's the emotional counter and balance to Winter, who's stuck in a perpetual war with the Outsiders. The idea that Summer doesn't hold Winter in emotional check is scary. They've only ever had the troops to match what Winter doesn't have on the front lines. Here's the other thing we now know about Summer just from latest developments in the Cold Days ending. If we assume Titania has her head in the clouds, we now know at least two out of three of Summer's Queens have a damn good idea what's going on. Why? Mother Summer is right up there with Mother Winter side by side helping each other. I'd bet money that Sarissa's got a real idea what's going on given she was in a special position before she was prepared as a vessel in the first place. I don't know if she knew details, no. But ideas? I'd bet money.

Spoiler

I'm thinking starborn is more specific than born on Halloween as well, and I'm betting Mac was the last person to be one, and he traded the ability to interfere with events in exchange for immortality or something similar. Likely to end up being Ulysses or someone equally famous.

Spoiler

Mac is an interesting character. I'm not even sure his lack of interference for immortality has anything to do with ability or anything. My theory is he's Mab's spy in Chicago watching for Outsider/corruption activity. Check out the fight in the bar. Accorded Neutral Ground. Every other time a fight has almost started he's damn well kicked them out. An outsider? Harry offers to take it outside. Bar's Neutral Ground after all. Mac's like fuck that shit and pump's the shotgun. And when he's injured at the end, the first thing Mab does when she gets the chance is yank the bullet out. Mac is an interesting character. I think we're going to be seeing more of him in a bigger role than just 'pub owner' down the line.

[LadyTevar]

Good reason to re-read the earlier novels: I'd forgotten the Shroud of Turin was stolen. I'd also forgotten how long Thomas kept the truth from Harry.

[Alyrium Denryle]

So, yeah. I liked it more than Changes or Ghost Story, but I still think the high point of the series to date was around books 8 9 and 10. The power creep is starting to bother me a bit now.
Spoiler

I though a big part of the reason Outsiders were so hard to fight is because magic doesn't want to stick to them, but now we have them being fought almost entirely by a magical army, and Dresden can hammer them like any other reasonably tough monster. Which is annoying. That said, Winter and Summer as a whole make a lot more sense now, Winter will sacrifice anything because it is fighting a war it absolutely cannot loose, and Summer can afford top be a lot nicer because it has almost none of the same issues. I also like the way the Mantle of the Winter Knight seems to be designed to make one mortal very powerful, provided they are smart, strong willed and fundamentally decent, the instant they take it for granted or forget it it makes them very vulnerable to attack from anyone halfway smart (all of the Fae queens, and a lot of their more powerful advisers)

We have pretty good evidence for Lash still living in Harrys head. Demonreach either has a good sense of humour or that's likely to be bad for Harry long term, the White Council now seems more useless than it ever has, very few members actually know half of what is happening, outside the SC I'd put good money on none of them having it. Lara Raith has probably been hit by Nemesis given what Thomas said about her seizing a lot more power more openly than the courts usually do.

I'm kind of sad Maeve kicked it, she was nuts as hell but kind of fun, and I like the way it was sort of implied that the other mythologies are tied in a lot closer with the Fae than was implied before. Odin and Kringle appear to be connected, I won;t be surprised if the most powerful name that Mother Winter and mother Summer have been known by is one the White God or Gaia or any other creator has been known by.

Points of Information
Spoiler

1) Harry has ALWAYS been able to deal with outsiders. This was revealed when we learned that He Who Walks Behind was one, and during the battle of the wraith deeps in White Knight. We also learn why. His mom arranged it.

2) During the Wild Hunt, whatever the leader of the Hunt does with his power affects the whole Hunt. So when he went after outsiders as leader of the Hunt, that ability transferred to his followers for the duration of his command of the hunt.

3) What is the evidence that Lash is still around? I also saw no evidence of Lara using power more openly. Keep in mind, the narrators know the score.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Spoiler

Mac is an interesting character. I'm not even sure his lack of interference for immortality has anything to do with ability or anything. My theory is he's Mab's spy in Chicago watching for Outsider/corruption activity. Check out the fight in the bar. Accorded Neutral Ground. Every other time a fight has almost started he's damn well kicked them out. An outsider? Harry offers to take it outside. Bar's Neutral Ground after all. Mac's like fuck that shit and pump's the shotgun. And when he's injured at the end, the first thing Mab does when she gets the chance is yank the bullet out. Mac is an interesting character. I think we're going to be seeing more of him in a bigger role than just 'pub owner' down the line.

He is... interesting. But I dont think your theory holds. Spoiler

We know he is not a mortal. Probably that he had some other thing going on before he became a bartender but I am pretty sure he is unaffiliated. The reason I dont think that your theory holds is that, bluntly, accorded neutral territory kinda also means that everyone inside is his guest, and Sharkface did kinda threaten to come in and take Harry out by force, Mac has the right, under the accords to protect the neutrality of his establishment by force. Mab probably pulled the bullet out as a means of balancing the scales. He did her a favor by coming to the aid of her Knight. It may just be that simple.

As for the whole Kringle/Odin thing, there are two possibilities.

Kringle is not a fae, but just Odin in another form.

Odin took on a seeming. He Looked like Kringle, but was not Kringle. The actual Kringle exists independently.

[LadyTevar]

Spoiler

As for the whole Kringle/Odin thing, there are two possibilities.

Kringle is not a fae, but just Odin in another form.

Odin took on a seeming. He Looked like Kringle, but was not Kringle. The actual Kringle exists independently.

Or, it's a Mantle that is donned at the appropriate time.
Spoiler

Kringle/Nickolas/Santa is merely a new twist on a very, very old story.
At one point children expected Odin to ride by and leave gifts during the Winter Solstice. They left fodder for Slepnir in their shoes or in their stockings. So, it's very likely that Odin has always been the One Who Leaves Gifts. The only change is the Dreams of Mortals, turning him from Odin the Wise to jolly ole St. Nick/Kris Krinkle with his red suit and love of cookies and CokeCola.

[Ralin]

Spoiler

1) Harry has ALWAYS been able to deal with outsiders. This was revealed when we learned that He Who Walks Behind was one, and during the battle of the wraith deeps in White Knight. We also learn why. His mom arranged it.

2) During the Wild Hunt, whatever the leader of the Hunt does with his power affects the whole Hunt. So when he went after outsiders as leader of the Hunt, that ability transferred to his followers for the duration of his command of the hunt.

3) What is the evidence that Lash is still around? I also saw no evidence of Lara using power more openly. Keep in mind, the narrators know the score.

Spoiler

1) I just finished the audiobook of White Night and I was wondering about that. If Harry does have this anti-Outsiders power because of the circumstances of his birth why did he need Lash's help to fend off Outsider-possessed Madrigal's mental attack? He didn't seem to have any particular power or resistance against it without her help.

3) Mysterious migraines. Which could be a sign that the parts of his brain where Lash lived are healing. And something was keeping his body going during Ghost Story, and a reborn Lash does seem like the obvious choice for the Parasite.