Dresden Cold Days Nov 27th

[Alyrium Denryle]

Spoiler

1) Harry has ALWAYS been able to deal with outsiders. This was revealed when we learned that He Who Walks Behind was one, and during the battle of the wraith deeps in White Knight. We also learn why. His mom arranged it.

2) During the Wild Hunt, whatever the leader of the Hunt does with his power affects the whole Hunt. So when he went after outsiders as leader of the Hunt, that ability transferred to his followers for the duration of his command of the hunt.

3) What is the evidence that Lash is still around? I also saw no evidence of Lara using power more openly. Keep in mind, the narrators know the score.

Spoiler

1) I just finished the audiobook of White Night and I was wondering about that. If Harry does have this anti-Outsiders power because of the circumstances of his birth why did he need Lash's help to fend off Outsider-possessed Madrigal's mental attack? He didn't seem to have any particular power or resistance against it without her help.

3) Mysterious migraines. Which could be a sign that the parts of his brain where Lash lived are healing. And something was keeping his body going during Ghost Story, and a reborn Lash does seem like the obvious choice for the Parasite.

Spoiler

1) He did not know how? We already know he has this power independently of what Lash says. He managed to cast He Who Walks Behind out of this reality and back beyond the Outer Gates. A 16 year old should not have been able to do that.

2) why would a reborn Lash xenomorph out of his skull?

[Malivotti]

Spoiler

1) Harry has ALWAYS been able to deal with outsiders. This was revealed when we learned that He Who Walks Behind was one, and during the battle of the wraith deeps in White Knight. We also learn why. His mom arranged it.

2) During the Wild Hunt, whatever the leader of the Hunt does with his power affects the whole Hunt. So when he went after outsiders as leader of the Hunt, that ability transferred to his followers for the duration of his command of the hunt.

3) What is the evidence that Lash is still around? I also saw no evidence of Lara using power more openly. Keep in mind, the narrators know the score.

Spoiler

1) I just finished the audiobook of White Night and I was wondering about that. If Harry does have this anti-Outsiders power because of the circumstances of his birth why did he need Lash's help to fend off Outsider-possessed Madrigal's mental attack? He didn't seem to have any particular power or resistance against it without her help.

3) Mysterious migraines. Which could be a sign that the parts of his brain where Lash lived are healing. And something was keeping his body going during Ghost Story, and a reborn Lash does seem like the obvious choice for the Parasite.

Spoiler

Point, just because Harry's magic can effect an Outsider doesn't mean that he is immune to the Outsider attacks. All that means is both can affect each other equally.
Then you add Winter Magic and Soulfire to Harry's spells and you understand why HWWA ran from Harry at Mac's place.
Also Harry was able to handle HWWA mental attack because he fought it off before and recognized the type of attack. Also the mental attack in White Night was boosted by Vittorio Malvora's own power.

PS The word is the next book will feature Lasciel, the real world Lasciel and the fate of Nicodemus since every 5th Dresden book has the Knights of the Blackened Denarius.

[Ralin]

Spoiler

1) He did not know how? We already know he has this power independently of what Lash says. He managed to cast He Who Walks Behind out of this reality and back beyond the Outer Gates. A 16 year old should not have been able to do that.

2) why would a reborn Lash xenomorph out of his skull?

Spoiler

1) I still need to re-read Ghost Story, but wasn't it implied that He Who Walks Behind threw that fight anyway? Just seems odd to me.

3) Well, I'm not sure that the "Burst forth from your head" thing is literal. Demonreach didn't exactly seem to have a nuanced command of English.

Though the theory I really like is that Lash is coming back online and is planning to create a separate body for herself. Soulfire is a creative force, after all...

Spoiler

PS The word is the next book will feature Lasciel, the real world Lasciel and the fate of Nicodemus since every 5th Dresden book has the Knights of the Blackened Denarius.

Spoiler

Ooh. Hadn't heard the bit about real Lasciel making an appearance.

[Alkaloid]

Spoiler

1) Harry has ALWAYS been able to deal with outsiders. This was revealed when we learned that He Who Walks Behind was one, and during the battle of the wraith deeps in White Knight. We also learn why. His mom arranged it.

2) During the Wild Hunt, whatever the leader of the Hunt does with his power affects the whole Hunt. So when he went after outsiders as leader of the Hunt, that ability transferred to his followers for the duration of his command of the hunt.

3) What is the evidence that Lash is still around? I also saw no evidence of Lara using power more openly. Keep in mind, the narrators know the score.

Spoiler

To point 1, I know, but I always felt his outsider bane powers were going to be a little different given that previously his magic has seemed to have less bite against them than it does against similarly powered insiders like the loup garoup or Shagnasty. I just though it would be a little more complicated than 'Harrys fireballs hurt them' because even so, he is still only one guy.

To point 2, yeah, the hunt taking on Harrys powers there makes sense, but I was referring more to the army of fae at the wall, explicitly magical creatures fighting an army largely immune to magic seems unlikely.

To point 3, Lash is speculation at best, but it doesn't seem unlikely given Harrys headaches and what Demonreach said. Lara is inferred as well, but Thomas says she is getting scary and expanding her court into circles it hasn't traditionally moved in, like the government. Seems likely to me that would not have come up unless it was important.

Spoiler

Kringle/Nickolas/Santa is merely a new twist on a very, very old story.
At one point children expected Odin to ride by and leave gifts during the Winter Solstice. They left fodder for Slepnir in their shoes or in their stockings. So, it's very likely that Odin has always been the One Who Leaves Gifts. The only change is the Dreams of Mortals, turning him from Odin the Wise to jolly ole St. Nick/Kris Krinkle with his red suit and love of cookies and CokeCola.

Spoiler

Problem with that is Kringle is specifically Fae, as much as the Erlking, Titania or Mab, and Odin appears not to be. It's not impossible that the Mantle of the Winter King could have moved to Odin I suppose, but it seems unlikely that it can move to a God, and it leaves the question as to who has it the rest of the time, because it has to be on someone.

Spoiler

3) Well, I'm not sure that the "Burst forth from your head" thing is literal. Demonreach didn't exactly seem to have a nuanced command of English.

Though the theory I really like is that Lash is coming back online and is planning to create a separate body for herself. Soulfire is a creative force, after all...

Spoiler

Given the way souls work in story, and the fact that angels are specifically all soul, I'm 99% that Harry will give Lash part of his soul in order to give her an identity seperate from the inside of his head. And I suspect he will get no end of grief from Bob about it because I imagine something very similar occurs when a child is born, so Lash will be in an almost literal sense Harrys daughter by virgin birth.

Also, can someone explain to me how to attribute quotes to posters through the editor, I can't work it out and given that I replied to 3 separate people in this post its probably important.

[White Haven]

Code: Select all

[quote="Name"]Content[/quote]

[Malivotti]

Spoiler

PS The word is the next book will feature Lasciel, the real world Lasciel and the fate of Nicodemus since every 5th Dresden book has the Knights of the Blackened Denarius.

Spoiler

Ooh. Hadn't heard the bit about real Lasciel making an appearance.

/quote]
From Word of Jim

sapph42: People (including me) have asked you at signings, but there seems to be a jumble. Can you confirm that 'the parasite' is Lash[1] , and remains a distinct entity from 'the shadow', which is Lasciel[2] ?
Jim: 1) No comment. That will be in the next book, and if I tell you now I'm afraid no one would want to read it.

From the Word of Jim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wKr8UERpto
Have we seen the last of Lasciel?
No, her story's not over. Actually, she's mentioned in Ghost Story, although not by name
Are we going to see more of Nicodemus or Mavra?
Nicodemus will show up on schedule, which you can figure out if you stop to look at things, I think. Mavra's not done yet either, but she eventually probably will be, and I'll leave it at that.

Also Jim Butcher mentioned that we'll see Sue again, later.

[Ralin]

Wasn't doubting you, just hadn't heard that bit.

Have we seen the last of Lasciel?
No, her story's not over. Actually, she's mentioned in Ghost Story, although not by name

Knew there was another bit of evidence for Lash coming back that I'd forgotten.

[LadyTevar]

Alkaloid? Please tell me where you find Spoiler

]Kris Kringle

to be SPECIFICALLY Fae.
Spoiler

Even a casual read of the Wiki Page shows us the majority of his background is based on a Christian Bishop who was Sainted, or Odin himself. Not until "A Visit from Saint Nicholas" was he ever described as a "right jolly old elf". L. Frank Baum (of Oz fame) first gave Santa immortal helpers in 1902 when he wrote "The Life and Adventures of Santa Claus" (one of Rankin/Bass' last Xmas Specials). The idea of Elves in the Workshop was purely a 1920s invention.

Thus... Kringle is not FAE, although the Mantle of Claus may make him a member of Winter Court, even as the Mantle of Winter Knight makes Harry a member.
(Hmm... Mantle of Claus. So, does that make the movie "The Santa Clause" close to being truth?)

[Gaidin]

Spoiler

Dresden first-person-thinks(this is key) he's one of the most powerful fae in Storm Front when considering power levels of different Fae. Specifically it's Chapter 6 when he's waiting for Toot-toot to return. Not that Dresden is known for being spot-on correct as an information reference in those days, but that's where you'd get a book reference about him specifically being Fae, albeit under a different name in that writing.

Your mileage may vary. Personally I think it the Storm Front reference doesn't get a lot of traction, especially with the actually myth references we can pull.

[Vaporous]

Spoiler

I wonder if the reveal that Aurora was being influenced by Nemesis and that Mab was healing the Leanansidhe of their influence help explain why Rashid appears/gets involved in Summer Knight and Proven Guilty, aside from him just happening to want to help Harry. That kind of thing is under his jurisdiction. You can stretch and say he shows up in Turn Coat for the same reason.

edit: fixed tags

also, is it just me or
Spoiler

has the proportion of creepy psuedo-porn to actual content reached uncomfortable levels? I get it, man, Harry meets a lot of supernaturally attractive women. Stop beating me over the head with it.

[Darth Yan]

I think a large part of it is the increasing winter knight mantle. It explicitly corrupts the bearer (hence why many of the soldiers were serial killers. Evidently Gilles de Rais was one) and makes them more primal. As such Harry's primal urges are also boosted

[Ralin]

Spoiler

has the proportion of creepy psuedo-porn to actual content reached uncomfortable levels? I get it, man, Harry meets a lot of supernaturally attractive women. Stop beating me over the head with it.

Spoiler

I think that's just a function of Harry dealing with even more fey than usual. It's kind of a given. I was more uncomfortable with the Winter Knight mantle making Harry all rape-happy. I get what Butcher was going for; Harry's always admiring women and thinking he needs to protect them, so it makes sense that the mantle would work by subverting a major character trait like that, but I'm not sure if he really pulled it off as well as it needed to be

[Alyrium Denryle]

I think a large part of it is the increasing winter knight mantle. It explicitly corrupts the bearer (hence why many of the soldiers were serial killers. Evidently Gilles de Rais was one) and makes them more primal. As such Harry's primal urges are also boosted

No. Gilles de Rais was the most prolific serial killer of children in the recorded history of humanity (unless you consider Nazi doctors). In addition to being a close personal friend of Joan of Arc.

He used his power as a feudal noble and martial of france to kidnap some 200 children (probably more. ~200 bodies were found) from the lands surrounding his castle. He took them home, ritualistically molested and tortured them, killed them horrifically, and squirreled the bodies away in his fortress and in its foundations.

During his trial, the judge had to stop the presentation of evidence, because, as he said (I am paraphrasing here) "To present more evidence would risk the faith in a benevolent god of all those in attendance"
Spoiler

If the Mantle of Winter Knight has the potential to turn a person into what Gilles des Rais turned into, then you have to deal with the impulses and thoughts that such a thing will put into your mind. Especially with a First Person narration. Dresden has, throughout the series, had a healthy libido. He sees a gorgeous mortal woman and it gets commented on in his mind, just like it gets commented on in anyone elses mind. Supernatural is a bit different because a lot of them feed or tempt you that way. With the Mantle, yeah. A supernatural thing designed to tempt you to give in to your basal urges is going to be a bit rapetacular

Also, yeah. I re-read everything while driving yesterday (audiobook. Technically reading) and Kringle looks more and more like Odin. In fact, I can be pretty certain of it. But he himself is not part of Winter. If he was, he would not be a Freeholding Lord under the Accords. I think he is in a position similar to Dresden, in that he is something else while also holding the position of Kringle. He also never actually claims to be a member of the Winter Court, but rather says he makes his home among winter--or indeed asks the question Harry thinks he would. Not the same thing as making a statement. To say nothing of the fact that Harry does not have omniscient knowledge in Storm Front, and makes plenty of errors in fact and judgement over the course of the series.

[Alkaloid]

Hey Tev, I'm not quoting you because spoilers are annoying to quote, but two things.
Spoiler

Everything that wasn't Dresden at the ball was Fae. Some were summer, but all of them were Fae. Not necessarily proof but I get the feeling that not Fae folk weren't invited to that particular sort of party.

And secondly is from something Butcher said I think when someone asked him if Klaus the Toymaker was the inspiration for Santa Claus. He laughed and said no, the Erlking was the Summer King, so there has to be a Winter King and that's Santa.

[Vaporous]

It is important to remember that Butcher lies. He lies a lot. He brags at conventions about how much enjoys lying in between saying things which may or may not be lies. So relying on Word of Butcher isn't necessarily a perfect idea.

[Alyrium Denryle]

It is important to remember that Butcher lies. He lies a lot. He brags at conventions about how much enjoys lying in between saying things which may or may not be lies. So relying on Word of Butcher isn't necessarily a perfect idea.

I take it that is when dolling out spoiler information and not in the general case, correct?

[LadyTevar]

Actually, I heard what Vaporous heard.... Butcher likes to make up stuff just to see who's listening.


Now, just outta curiousity, I wonder what role Ivy still has to play in all of this.

[Ralin]

Actually, I heard what Vaporous heard.... Butcher likes to make up stuff just to see who's listening.

I hadn't heard that myself. But I don't read much Dresden-related information anywhere other than SA.

Now, just outta curiousity, I wonder what role Ivy still has to play in all of this.

Spoiler

Butcher dropped a bombshell awhile back. He says it's not going to come up in the actual stories, but remember that whole Oblivion War that Lara and Thomas are involved in? The one where they go around eradicating knowledge of elder gods so as to weaken their grasp on reality?

Turns out the Archive was created as part of that war. All that stuff about preserving the collective knowledge of human civilization against catastrophe? Bullshit smoke screen.

What she does is she use her powers to make sure that she's the only one left who knows about a given elder god's existence. Then she waits a couple thousand years. Then, once she's certain she's the only one left who remembers, she deletes the being in question from her memory.

That's right. Ivy's purpose in life is to cap elder gods.

The term "awesome" comes to mind.

[LadyTevar]

Spoiler

Butcher dropped a bombshell awhile back. He says it's not going to come up in the actual stories, but remember that whole Oblivion War that Lara and Thomas are involved in? The one where they go around eradicating knowledge of elder gods so as to weaken their grasp on reality?

Turns out the Archive was created as part of that war. All that stuff about preserving the collective knowledge of human civilization against catastrophe? Bullshit smoke screen.

What she does is she use her powers to make sure that she's the only one left who knows about a given elder god's existence. Then she waits a couple thousand years. Then, once she's certain she's the only one left who remembers, she deletes the being in question from her memory.

That's right. Ivy's purpose in life is to cap elder gods.

The term "awesome" comes to mind.

Pratchett's "Small Gods" comes to mind in that case.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Spoiler

Thus... Kringle is not FAE, although the Mantle of Claus may make him a member of Winter Court, even as the Mantle of Winter Knight makes Harry a member.
(Hmm... Mantle of Claus. So, does that make the movie "The Santa Clause" close to being truth?)

Spoiler

It would be in keeping with the series for The Santa Clause to have been written that way on purpose. Maybe the actual Kringle was giving the writers ideas for his own purposes. Either as part of the way that human thought & belief anchors such beings in the world, or just for amusement.

[LadyTevar]

Been re-reading the series, and all those little things that were scattered about as throwaway lines are now making Huge Impressions. The Black Council/Others have been setting things up for a long long time. There's a fuckin' scary number of connections here.

Let's take Cowl, follower of Kemmler the Necromancer, and nearly a new god had he successfully completed Kemmler's ritual. "Dead Beat" is not his first appearance, surprisingly. We see him in the background at the Red Court's little party. He is the one holding the Black Blade gifted to Leanshidhe. We know the Leanshidhe was possessed by the Others via that blade, which spread to both Winter & Summer Ladies. In "White Night" we find out he's still alive, and the master/teacher of Vittro Malvora, White Vampire possessed by one of the Others.

So... it begs the question of what else Cowl has done for the Others. Taught the Shadowman how to make ThirdEye? Created the hexenwulf pelts?

Another point: Kemmler's ritual needed the Erlking to be Riding and calling out spirits. The ritual was in a book of poems by Magister Peabody, the White Council's paperpusher. Peabody was also in the Black Council, and not only had he murdered a Senior Council member, but he had also mentally fucked dozens of the younger Wardens, as well as Warden Captain Anastasia Luccio.

How many more can you find?

[Ralin]

I've wondered for awhile if there was something significant to Ebenezar's reaction the first time Harry used the term "Black Council."

Also, I didn't notice it until I started going through the audiobooks, but damn, Cowl does sound exactly like what I'd expect a Fomori to sound like.

[Gaidin]

I don't think Aurora was corrupted. I think, at least among the early books, you're more likely to examples of the corrupted pressuring others to do what they want(and the Black Magic is its own corruption anyway as opposed what we're discussing here, re: Shadowman). Aurora is a quintessential example of a person who more wanted a conflict to end and probably got manipulated into an outrageous solution of it.

That is unless the Corruption doesn't really turn you as much as it is turns up the volume on all your actions and lessens the moral and ethical blocks you might have. You know, mess with the person and set them loose and let them do damage kind of thing.

[Malivotti]

About odd/significant connections, well let's see.

Margaret (Harry's Mom) had a relationship with Lord Raith, she had a child with the leader of the White Court. The relationship went south, she ran, Lord Raith killed her using a ritual curse.

Lord Raith had dealings with Outsiders, summoning up HWWB in Blood Rites to deal with Harry.

HWWB was also summoned by Justin, Harry's mentor to kill Harry after Harry escaped being Enthralled.

Both of Justin's apprentices, Harry and Elaine share the same birthday, as such both would have the same talent for dealing with Outsiders. Both were to be enthralled by Justin to be his enforcers.

Justin was a Warden of the White Council, one the Wardens that was present for the last very careful killing of Kemmler. Justin recovered Bob from the wreck of the battle and reported Bob destroyed to the White Council.

Cowl knew about Bob and knew that Bob was Kemmler's greatest research aid, yet Grevane and the Corpsetaker didn't. Cowl knew things about Dresden that could have been only learned from the White Council.

Cowl hides is appearance, the only one that does. So Cowl is somehow recognizable in some way, or is known about.

I could come up with few more I think, but those are from the top of my head or stuff that I've been thinking about.

Oh BTW at Mab's party in Cold Days when she makes her entrance, all of the Winter Court except Maeve bowed to her, Kringle didn't bow to her neither did the Eldest Gruff and the Erlking. So that means Kringle is not Winter Fae. I can't believe I missed that detail. Mea culpa.

A good source for speculation is the Dresden Files RPG, the margin notes are official in cannon notes from Billy, Bob and Harry.

[Lord of the Abyss]

I don't think Aurora was corrupted. I think, at least among the early books, you're more likely to examples of the corrupted pressuring others to do what they want(and the Black Magic is its own corruption anyway as opposed what we're discussing here, re: Shadowman). Aurora is a quintessential example of a person who more wanted a conflict to end and probably got manipulated into an outrageous solution of it.

That is unless the Corruption doesn't really turn you as much as it is turns up the volume on all your actions and lessens the moral and ethical blocks you might have. You know, mess with the person and set them loose and let them do damage kind of thing.

It seems to do both, depending.
Spoiler

Cat Sith got the puppet treatment; but in the process was rendered far less capable, as Harry noticed. Maeve seemed more like herself with her judgement altered. Whether the difference is the strength/nature of the victim or the intent of Nemesis I don't know.