The OotS Thread III

[Ted C]

This is an unfortunate consequence of a setting with creature types that are always evil. Durkon is a pretty live and let live sort of dwarf regarding religion, and seeing Malack as a respected colleague he can mentally distance him from the Empire's evils. But vampires are universally evil and Malack is a murderer having at least killed those he previously sired.

Ahriman hits the nail on the head. If Malack were just a mortal evil cleric, there would actually be some (miniscule) hope that he might change his ways, change alignment, and adopt a more benign deity. As a vampire, however, it is literally impossible for him to ever become Good. Furthermore, as an undead creature, he is an offense to good deities in a way that a mortal creature can't ever be.

[Simon_Jester]

Another point:

Durkon can be philosophical, he can accept that death is part of the natural order and that therefore priests of death are too. Malack carries his day to day life out without (much) obvious personal evil; if someone had told me his alignment was Neutral a few dozen episodes ago, I would have believed it.

So as long as it's just Malack's personality, and not his strange metaphysical status that comes from being a vampire, Malack is acceptable to Durkon.

[Straha]

If you go back to the conversation between Durkon and Malack when they first met Malach very very strongly implies that he's a Neutral cleric and not evil. Given that Durkon just found out that his friend (and partial mentor) is now evil his visceral reaction doesn't really shock me. (Also, the spell he used to save Belkar? Researched with Malack's help.)

[Raesene]

872 is up

That is not going to end well...

[Ted C]

872 is up

That is not going to end well...

One can only hope that Durkon included himself in that Mass Death Ward.

[Crazedwraith]

872 is up

That is not going to end well...

One can only hope that Durkon included himself in that Mass Death Ward.

One assumes so. No point using a Mass spell on one person right?

[Irbis]

Well, depends if Durkon was within 30 feet of Belkar when he cast it to be legal target himself.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

Burlew's put enough commentary into the story about the racism in the alignment system of D&D that I would hope he doesn't require every vampire in his world to be evil. Malack's also demonstrated that he's quite different from the stereotypical kind of evil found in Xykon or Belkar, even if that is his alignment. Honestly, his good vs evil morality seems pretty similar to non-soul-bound Vaarsuvius.

[CarsonPalmer]

Burlew's put enough commentary into the story about the racism in the alignment system of D&D that I would hope he doesn't require every vampire in his world to be evil. Malack's also demonstrated that he's quite different from the stereotypical kind of evil found in Xykon or Belkar, even if that is his alignment. Honestly, his good vs evil morality seems pretty similar to non-soul-bound Vaarsuvius.

I don't see that going this way, though. Malack made no reasonable offers to Durkon (abandon your friends or give Tarquin the gate) and has benefitted from a vicious dictatorship. This might turn into a little more of a commentary on morally reprehensible neutrality.

[Ralin]

I don't see that going this way, though. Malack made no reasonable offers to Durkon (abandon your friends or give Tarquin the gate) and has benefitted from a vicious dictatorship. This might turn into a little more of a commentary on morally reprehensible neutrality.

I dunno, I think that "Let's both withdraw to a safe distance and agree not to interfere" was a pretty reasonable offer, and all indications are Malack made it in good faith. At worst it leaves both teams equally weakened, and if anything it favors Durkon's side, seeing as Malack is in all likelihood both higher level than Durkon and, being a vampire, probably more of a direct physical threat.

Durkon's reasons for rejecting it are valid ones, but it's clear Malack genuinely likes Durkon and wants to avoid hurting him. Commentary or not, it's still sad.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

I'm not exactly sure whether or not Malack realises why the Order finds this temple so important, too; did he get briefed on the portals?

And regardless, interpersonal drama due to racial alignment just seems less dramatically fulfilling than when it's done for real reasons, so I'm still pulling for the latter.

[Ted C]

I don't see that going this way, though. Malack made no reasonable offers to Durkon (abandon your friends or give Tarquin the gate) and has benefitted from a vicious dictatorship. This might turn into a little more of a commentary on morally reprehensible neutrality.

I dunno, I think that "Let's both withdraw to a safe distance and agree not to interfere" was a pretty reasonable offer, and all indications are Malack made it in good faith. At worst it leaves both teams equally weakened, and if anything it favors Durkon's side, seeing as Malack is in all likelihood both higher level than Durkon and, being a vampire, probably more of a direct physical threat.

I think that abandoning the your team mates (who are certainly counting on your assistance) during a crisis is an evil act. Not as evil as turning against them, but still pretty bad. That's what Malack was asking Durkon to do, and I don't see how Durkon could be expected to accept such a proposal.

[Crazedwraith]

Yes indeed. I seem to recall heaven having a poor opinion of Roy's 'lets let the thieves keep Elan, he's an idiot anyway' episode way back when.

[Terralthra]

Yes indeed. I seem to recall heaven having a poor opinion of Roy's 'lets let the thieves keep Elan, he's an idiot anyway' episode way back when.

Sure...the Lawful Good heaven did. The neutral heavens might've taken a more nuanced view, just as they might take towards Malack's offer(s).

[Ralin]

I think that abandoning the your team mates (who are certainly counting on your assistance) during a crisis is an evil act. Not as evil as turning against them, but still pretty bad. That's what Malack was asking Durkon to do, and I don't see how Durkon could be expected to accept such a proposal.

I think you're exaggerating it a bit? Like I said, removing the Order's cleric from the field in exchange for a higher level cleric on the other side does count as a net gain for the Order in my book. And if Xykon had shown up or something Malack probably would have been open to negotiating a new deal.

[Ahriman238]

I dunno, I think that "Let's both withdraw to a safe distance and agree not to interfere" was a pretty reasonable offer, and all indications are Malack made it in good faith. At worst it leaves both teams equally weakened, and if anything it favors Durkon's side, seeing as Malack is in all likelihood both higher level than Durkon and, being a vampire, probably more of a direct physical threat.

I think that abandoning the your team mates (who are certainly counting on your assistance) during a crisis is an evil act. Not as evil as turning against them, but still pretty bad. That's what Malack was asking Durkon to do, and I don't see how Durkon could be expected to accept such a proposal.

I feel like this is the wrong way to look at it. If Durkon had accepted both parties retiring from the field, he would be tying up and effectively neutralizing a high-level threat. And he'd have a far higher chance of keeping Malack out of the fight then trying to bludgeon him with a hammer will. But this would rely on Durkon trusting Malack at least a little, and he clearly doesn't.

Sure...the Lawful Good heaven did. The neutral heavens might've taken a more nuanced view, just as they might take towards Malack's offer(s).

I'll guess you haven't read, or forgot, Durkon's backstory in 'the origin of PCS.' I doubt any of this can count as a spoiler, but just in case.
Spoiler

A prophecy spoke of terrible disaster befalling the dwarves if Durkon ever returned home. So the High Priest of Thor sent him on a mission to learn about the outside world as a veiled and perpetual exile. "He's so Lawful, it'd never occur to him to come back without permission." So I think Durkon would also be dealing with the LG afterlife. And of course, the Oracle has said that Durkon WILL return home... posthumosly.

I'll bet the High Priest never thought of that.

[dragon]

873 is up.

[Ahriman238]

Heh. Heal hurts undead.

Malack was fighting pretty smart, up til his trying poison against a dwarf's constitution. I think the outcome here may actually be in doubt, if Durkon can hold of Malack long enough for the paralysis on Belkar to wear off.

[Crazedwraith]

wow. Already? Brave Ser thumb is working overtime I see. Especially since he's got the Belkar pdf out as well.

And this cleric's duel has much better special effects budget that the last one lol.

[Irbis]

Who wants to bet next comic will open with Malack laughing at Durkon and stating protecting oneself from positive energy is most obvious thing for undead cleric? If Xykon has a ring protecting him from exactly this, Malack should have reached same conclusion...

[Crazedwraith]

And He's looking shocked and going 'AAAARGH!' just to commit to the joke is he?

[Rogue 9]

872 is up

That is not going to end well...

I know the next one's already up, but I'd have said it anyway if I'd checked the thread: In what way is a single-classed good aligned cleric poorly equipped to deal with a vampire?

[Irbis]

I know the next one's already up, but I'd have said it anyway if I'd checked the thread: In what way is a single-classed good aligned cleric poorly equipped to deal with a vampire?

Because Durkon has crap CHA score?

Though, since Malack is Cleric, too, he should be perfectly aware of his anti-Cleric vulnerabilities.

And He's looking shocked and going 'AAAARGH!' just to commit to the joke is he?

See this, this, this or this strip. All bait and switches from what happened in last frame.

Also, as someone pointed out, Malack shouted, but you don't see any wounds appear on him. Compare.

[Simon_Jester]

Maybe Malack's caster level as a cleric isn't all that much higher than Durkon's; as noted, being a vampire gives him a level adjustment.

I think that abandoning the your team mates (who are certainly counting on your assistance) during a crisis is an evil act. Not as evil as turning against them, but still pretty bad. That's what Malack was asking Durkon to do, and I don't see how Durkon could be expected to accept such a proposal.

Obviously Malack has no problem with the idea of abandoning Tarquin to go solve his own problems. It's not irrational for him to think other beings (like Durkon) would at least consider doing the same to avoid a costly battle they're likely to lose.

[Vaporous]

The offer makes sense from his perspective for other reasons. withdrawing gets malack out of a situation he didn't want to be in to begin with. Maybe Malack figures that Tarquin is smart enough to withdraw if things go south while Nale's ego might get in the way and get him killed. Malack can afford to leave because he doesn't care what happens to any else in his group but Tarquin, and Malack can raise him if needed