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 Post subject: Re: Chuck does Evangelion PostPosted: 2012-09-10 07:25am
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jollyreaper wrote:
The difficulty with EVA was Anno wanted to tell Shinji's story and did it against the backdrop of a completely different story. The angels weren't important, the eva units were not important, third impact wasn't even depicted overtly in the final two episodes.

So a lot of fan frustration was similar to x-files, you think the story is about this huge conspiracy but the creator was never interested in it in the first place.

I know for myself, I found Shinji to be incredibly annoying and someone I tried to ignore while enjoying the rest of the show. For the rest of the show to only be window dressing for his own psycho-drama.... Well, there's a reason why they made two new movies to end the show and why Anno blew everything up. Whether the fans were right in rejecting instrumentality or missing the point is open for debate!

I do agree that much of what Anno said the show was about was unclear from simply viewing it. Lost in translation, lost as a westerner making sense of material meant for Japanese otaku, hard to say.


You're pretty much completely wrong about all of this. I don't even understand how you could watch the show and come to any of these conclusions.



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 Post subject: Re: Chuck does Evangelion PostPosted: 2012-09-10 11:03pm
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XaLEv wrote:
Majin Gojira wrote:
The dub is pretty vague about it, but the official sub includes the horrible phrase "This time".



:?: :?: :?:


My transcription of Kaworu's lines in that scene: "Sā, yakusoku no toki da, Ikari Shinji-kun. Kondo koso kimi dake wa... shiawase ni shite miseru"

Did you have the impression the people doing the subtitles added that part themselves? Because he fairly clearly says "this time" in the original dialogue, see the bolded part above.


No, it's just a dub change. I don't know Japanese, so I didn't want to be all "THIS IS THE TRUTH!" about it.



ISARMA: Daikaiju Coordinator: Just Add Radiation
Justice League- Molly Hayes: Respect Hats or Freakin' Else!
Browncoat
Supernatural Taisen - "[This Story] is essentially "Wouldn't it be awesome if this happened?" Followed by explosions."

Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.

"God! Are you so bored that you enjoy seeing us humans suffer?! Why can't you let this poor man live happily with his son! What kind of God are you, crushing us like ants?!" - Kyoami, Ran

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 Post subject: Re: Chuck does Evangelion PostPosted: 2012-09-18 08:59pm
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And the second movie is up

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 Post subject: Re: Chuck does Evangelion PostPosted: 2012-09-19 06:13am
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This video has moved me to action. I haven't ever sent him an email before, but now I think I'll do that to sort of repudiate those other emails he's gotten about the original series's ending. I feel like he should be offered multiple perspectives about that. (I'll just suppress my bitterness about what I'd call an overly positive judgement of the movie itself.)

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 Post subject: Re: Chuck does Evangelion PostPosted: 2012-09-19 06:46am
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Man the series ending totally rules. The fact that people hated it is good because it got us End of Evangelion which ALSO rules :v



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 Post subject: Re: Chuck does Evangelion PostPosted: 2012-09-19 10:50am
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I never got the confusion about the ending. I get people not liking it, I suppose, it does come a little out of left field, but is it really that hard to understand? Especially when coupled with EoE, which I always though was pretty obviously the intended final two episodes given it features some shots that are exactly the same, just expanded and given context. I mean, I just finished Eureka 7 which is literally the longest amount of time I have ever invested in any Japanese media at all, and about the fifth Japanese show I have actually watched all the way through and even I picked up on some of the Japanese culturally specific stuff being brought up in Evangelion? Is it that hard?

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 Post subject: Re: Chuck does Evangelion PostPosted: 2012-09-19 01:33pm
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But it's EXISTENTIAL! And FREUDIAN! And INTERNAL!

That's about the sum off the complaints for the most part.



ISARMA: Daikaiju Coordinator: Just Add Radiation
Justice League- Molly Hayes: Respect Hats or Freakin' Else!
Browncoat
Supernatural Taisen - "[This Story] is essentially "Wouldn't it be awesome if this happened?" Followed by explosions."

Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.

"God! Are you so bored that you enjoy seeing us humans suffer?! Why can't you let this poor man live happily with his son! What kind of God are you, crushing us like ants?!" - Kyoami, Ran

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 Post subject: Re: Chuck does Evangelion PostPosted: 2012-09-19 01:48pm
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There's a few reasons for it that I suspect are prominent. First, most people aren't used to surrealist art in general, and thus lack many of the mental tools needed to understand a surrealist narrative. At least in EoE the audience can latch onto the whole process of instrumentality to provide a framework for the imagery, and the instrumentality sequence doesn't start from the instant the film begins. This framework is technically there in the series ending as well, but you have to piece that together yourself.

Second, the budgetary issues become more and more obvious as the series goes on, and some people I've seen simply dismiss the series ending due to how this forced them into an art-house movie surreal approach. This may seem unfair, and it is. But some people think they need to pick and choose endings, and go for EoE because of this.

Third, depending on how you interpret the series ending, it may actually contradict EoE in terms of how Shinji's character growth comes to a climax. I'm sure you can reconcile the two, but again if you are the type who thinks you must choose one ending over the other you probably won't go through the effort.

Lastly, and I know people also dislike EoE for this as well, it just plain got darker in a hurry. Right after the battle with the Angel Zerul, Shinji gets even more depressive than before, Asuka gets nearly suicidal, Rei's true nature is revealed... I know there are some people who just don't like a tone shift like that so near to the ending. I would guess that's why Rebuild 2.22 ended on that particular battle.

But hey, who knows for sure. Sometimes a meme is just a meme.



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 Post subject: Re: Chuck does Evangelion PostPosted: 2012-09-19 03:59pm
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Challenging audience expectations is generally a bad idea for mass media. I imagine its worse than usual in the extremely hidebound genre of 'science fiction'.



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 Post subject: Re: Chuck does Evangelion PostPosted: 2012-09-19 05:10pm
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Ford Prefect wrote:
Man the series ending totally rules. The fact that people hated it is good because it got us End of Evangelion which ALSO rules :v


EoE's ending was fantastic. Their was literally no better way to end the series.

I feel sick. :V



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 Post subject: Re: Chuck does Evangelion PostPosted: 2012-09-20 07:32am
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Yeah those are reasons people don't like it, but it's the genuine confusion. There seeme to be a huge number of people who never worked out what SEELE/Gendo were doing, or what the third impact was all about and seem completely baffled by what the last tw episodes are, as if they are entirely disconnected from the rest of the show. I don't know how, it just wasn't that complicated.

I dunno if I would say the show got darker either, it just came to its logical conclusion. I can't point to many episodes even early on that were all sweetness and light, even the synchronised dance fighting one had its darkish and kinda creepy twist.

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EoE's ending was fantastic. Their was literally no better way to end the series.


I like it better translated as "disgusting" myself, but hey.

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 Post subject: Re: Chuck does Evangelion PostPosted: 2012-09-20 07:53am
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Would you believe EoE was the first time I ever saw or even heard of Evangelion? They played it on HBO years back at night.

I had no idea what was going on but it seemed really great. :V



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 Post subject: Re: Chuck does Evangelion PostPosted: 2012-09-20 10:50am
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Alkaloid wrote:
I dunno if I would say the show got darker either, it just came to its logical conclusion. I can't point to many episodes even early on that were all sweetness and light, even the synchronised dance fighting one had its darkish and kinda creepy twist.


I think there's a definite downward spiral to be found in the show's atmosphere. For a few episodes after Asuka's arrival, it seems like Shinji might break out of his shell a little and things show signs of working out for everyone, but then everything kind of implodes. In fact, I'd say it divides pretty neatly into four distinct, successive moods: bad, better, bad, worse.

CaptHawkeye wrote:
Would you believe EoE was the first time I ever saw or even heard of Evangelion? They played it on HBO years back at night.

I had no idea what was going on but it seemed really great. :V


I get the impression that's a pretty common way of getting into the show. People see EoE and want to know WTF they just saw, so they go and watch the series from the start. Even if you don't quite follow along with the movie, it's a pretty intense and memorable experience, I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Chuck does Evangelion PostPosted: 2012-09-20 01:54pm
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Alkaloid wrote:
Yeah those are reasons people don't like it, but it's the genuine confusion. There seeme to be a huge number of people who never worked out what SEELE/Gendo were doing, or what the third impact was all about and seem completely baffled by what the last tw episodes are, as if they are entirely disconnected from the rest of the show. I don't know how, it just wasn't that complicated.

You're getting what I'm saying backwards. Read again. You're thinking that people dislike it because they don't understand it: I am saying that they don't try to understand it because they don't like it, and that alone could account for a lot of the people who claim they were confused by it. Most people don't put mental effort into understanding things that they don't enjoy or stories which go 90 degrees to the genre they expected. If that's confusing you, think of it this way: they came for the giant robits, and were confused and outraged when the show dropped the pretense of being part of that genre at the last minute.

Also, the lack of framework to understand surrealist narrative and the possible contradictions with the (slightly) more straightforward End of Evangelion film are valid reasons someone might be confused by the series ending. Or even by EoE's own surrealist scenes. It just isn't an art form many people come in contact with on a daily basis.



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"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"

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 Post subject: Re: Chuck does Evangelion PostPosted: 2012-09-20 02:07pm
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Bright wrote:
Alkaloid wrote:
I dunno if I would say the show got darker either, it just came to its logical conclusion. I can't point to many episodes even early on that were all sweetness and light, even the synchronised dance fighting one had its darkish and kinda creepy twist.


I think there's a definite downward spiral to be found in the show's atmosphere. For a few episodes after Asuka's arrival, it seems like Shinji might break out of his shell a little and things show signs of working out for everyone, but then everything kind of implodes. In fact, I'd say it divides pretty neatly into four distinct, successive moods: bad, better, bad, worse.

Really, the "logical conclusions" of Eva were always intended to be dark. Its a deconstruction of 1980's and 90's super robits anime cliche's. What else would you expect, given the various shades of triumph most of those shows had?

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CaptHawkeye wrote:
Would you believe EoE was the first time I ever saw or even heard of Evangelion? They played it on HBO years back at night.

I had no idea what was going on but it seemed really great. :V


I get the impression that's a pretty common way of getting into the show. People see EoE and want to know WTF they just saw, so they go and watch the series from the start. Even if you don't quite follow along with the movie, it's a pretty intense and memorable experience, I think.

A friend of mine tried to introduce me to the Eva that way. I was confused. :P

But seriously, at the time I didn't really think about anime as a separate thing from western animation (oh, and my friend only brought the subtitled version. Yay?) and it was years until I bothered finding out what the fuck I watched that night. I didn't regret it, though that's partially because it introduced me to other, less obtuse anime. :)



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"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"

The Magic Eight Ball Conspiracy.

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 Post subject: Re: Chuck does Evangelion PostPosted: 2012-09-20 03:36pm
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Formless wrote:
Really, the "logical conclusions" of Eva were always intended to be dark. Its a deconstruction of 1980's and 90's super robits anime cliche's. What else would you expect, given the various shades of triumph most of those shows had?


Correction:70s and 80s robot anime. The show owes quite a bit to Mazinger Z for its deconstruction. Or at least, mostly the sanitized TV Version. Go Nagai hit on a lot of the darker elements in the manga when he first wrote it.

When Kabuto gets in to fight his grandpa's enemy Dr. Hell, he doesn't know what he is doing and wins only through the absurd power of Mazinger Z. And, like in the recent adaptation "Shin Mazinger", he accidently kills people without realizing it when he first pilots it.

There's other parallels between their basic setup of Kabuto Koji/His Granpda and Shinji/Gendo, but taken to a deconstructive place, with heavy abandonment issues and so on.



ISARMA: Daikaiju Coordinator: Just Add Radiation
Justice League- Molly Hayes: Respect Hats or Freakin' Else!
Browncoat
Supernatural Taisen - "[This Story] is essentially "Wouldn't it be awesome if this happened?" Followed by explosions."

Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.

"God! Are you so bored that you enjoy seeing us humans suffer?! Why can't you let this poor man live happily with his son! What kind of God are you, crushing us like ants?!" - Kyoami, Ran

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 Post subject: Re: Chuck does Evangelion PostPosted: 2012-09-20 07:23pm
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Okay, lets just settle on a compromise proposition: all Robit anime since the seventies is deconstructed in Eva. The whole show isn't just about Shinji/Gendo. Last I checked, Asuka was a deconstruction of the usual "arrogant rival" archetype found in "real" robot anime series like Gundam and so on. Happy, Majin Nitpick? 8)



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"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
"To Err is Human; to Arrr is Pirate." — Skallagrim
“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"

The Magic Eight Ball Conspiracy.

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 Post subject: Re: Chuck does Evangelion PostPosted: 2012-09-20 07:57pm
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Formless wrote:
Okay, lets just settle on a compromise proposition: all Robit anime since the seventies is deconstructed in Eva. The whole show isn't just about Shinji/Gendo. Last I checked, Asuka was a deconstruction of the usual "arrogant rival" archetype found in "real" robot anime series like Gundam and so on. Happy, Majin Nitpick? 8)


Well, I could go on and talk about the influences of Devilman and Ultraman on eva in terms off scenes, visuals, and other little details, but .. . :angelic:



ISARMA: Daikaiju Coordinator: Just Add Radiation
Justice League- Molly Hayes: Respect Hats or Freakin' Else!
Browncoat
Supernatural Taisen - "[This Story] is essentially "Wouldn't it be awesome if this happened?" Followed by explosions."

Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.

"God! Are you so bored that you enjoy seeing us humans suffer?! Why can't you let this poor man live happily with his son! What kind of God are you, crushing us like ants?!" - Kyoami, Ran

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 Post subject: Re: Chuck does Evangelion PostPosted: 2012-10-15 10:59pm
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I for one did not get it, and I watched the anime.

It jumped from fighting robots to ... Shinji in isolation to a window shattering and Shinji joining people... in heaven?

There were background plots yes, but I don't even know how others manage to connect the dots as they did.



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 Post subject: Re: Chuck does Evangelion PostPosted: 2012-10-16 01:05am
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The surface meaning is always the easiest level to experience a work. I had no interest in any deeper themes or symbols until I started to understand the meanings of works I already enjoyed.



Elfdart wrote:
my first manager and I spent the better part of an hour in his office asking an insanely hot female employee to go through the "B" authors in the Lit section. Why? Because that would make her climb up on the ladder right where the security camera was and gave us a perfect view of her perfect gazongas
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 Post subject: Re: Chuck does Evangelion PostPosted: 2012-10-17 07:47pm
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How does anyone arrive to the conclusion of collective hive mind?



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 Post subject: Re: Chuck does Evangelion PostPosted: 2012-10-17 07:51pm
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I have no idea, because I hate Evangelion. I'm just saying that developing an ability to actually appreciate literature is a gradual process, and its best to start with things you already like. Its quite seldom a work is entirely devoid of meaning.



Elfdart wrote:
my first manager and I spent the better part of an hour in his office asking an insanely hot female employee to go through the "B" authors in the Lit section. Why? Because that would make her climb up on the ladder right where the security camera was and gave us a perfect view of her perfect gazongas
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 Post subject: Re: Chuck does Evangelion PostPosted: 2012-10-17 09:30pm
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Very true, it's why those X and Philosophy books exist.

Hell, I started learning that stuff using Godzilla and Buffy.



ISARMA: Daikaiju Coordinator: Just Add Radiation
Justice League- Molly Hayes: Respect Hats or Freakin' Else!
Browncoat
Supernatural Taisen - "[This Story] is essentially "Wouldn't it be awesome if this happened?" Followed by explosions."

Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.

"God! Are you so bored that you enjoy seeing us humans suffer?! Why can't you let this poor man live happily with his son! What kind of God are you, crushing us like ants?!" - Kyoami, Ran

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 Post subject: Re: Chuck does Evangelion PostPosted: 2012-10-17 09:39pm
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Pretty sure I only started to care about 'themes' and 'messages' rewatching Blake's 7. So it really doesn't matter where you start, so long as you decide to be open to that level of the text.



Elfdart wrote:
my first manager and I spent the better part of an hour in his office asking an insanely hot female employee to go through the "B" authors in the Lit section. Why? Because that would make her climb up on the ladder right where the security camera was and gave us a perfect view of her perfect gazongas
whatisprojectzohar.com

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