The Dark Knight Rises (Spoilers)

[Coop D'etat]

And how would all those scientists and engineers know what, if any, anti-tamper devices are on the modified version? It's not like it's sitting at Bikini and the only ones who'll notice if they do the wrong thing and blow it up are them...

They'd absolutely be useful in identifying and removing anti-tampering devices in the modified version, since they could see and understand how the reactor had been modified, as well as disabling the reactor. Of course, the movie didn't even acknowledge that they exist, claiming that not a single person, other than the Russian scientist, knew how the thing worked even though he didn't build it. That's pretty damn silly.

then it's good thats not what actually happened isn't it?
Wha was said was that he was the only one who knew how to weaponize it, and it was the weaponized version that was going to explode. Presumably without the actual weaponization the exploding part wouldnt have happened if the weaponization did not occur.

Yeah, the flaw with the reactor was supposed to be that it could be turned into a weapon relatively easily to someone who knew how (Russian guy). The modifications he made and only he knew how to do was the MacGuffin for the bomb plot.

This is of course, stupid physics but way less retarded than BB's microwave weapon that wouldn't kill every fleshbag made of water in its radius.

[AMT]

Also, as for the whole Robin thing... He isn't going to become robin... He's going to become Batman. The whole Robin thing was just a small nod... it wasn't meant to be taken so literally as everyone seems to think.

[Jim Raynor]

I still felt it was unnecessary to me though. Bruce was Batman because of years of training combined with an obsessve drive and a billionaire's fortune. Blake, a rookie cop, is supposed to just take over like that with a miniscule fraction of the resources? Small or nod I think the reference just feels off. If a movie goes out of its way to make a reference, it should get it right or not do it at all.

I thought they went a bit far in how much money Bruce lost, to the point that he couldn't even pay the electrical bills at home. If he had just a few million left in a secure account (still chump change by billionaire standards), it would've been enough to live on and fund a future crimefighting career.

Going along that route, an alternative ending that I would've liked is if Bruce still carried on as Batman with Selina at his side. Maybe adopt one of those orphaned teens (named Dick Grayson or something) as well, and rebuild his family. Gotham has been saved. Bruce's rage and anger are gone. He isn't needed to fight crime full time or even that often anymore, but he still keeps the bat suit around just in case.

[AMT]

I still felt it was unnecessary to me though. Bruce was Batman because of years of training combined with an obsessve drive and a billionaire's fortune. Blake, a rookie cop, is supposed to just take over like that with a miniscule fraction of the resources? Small or nod I think the reference just feels off. If a movie goes out of its way to make a reference, it should get it right or not do it at all.

I thought they went a bit far in how much money Bruce lost, to the point that he couldn't even pay the electrical bills at home. If he had just a few million left in a secure account (still chump change by billionaire standards), it would've been enough to live on and fund a future crimefighting career.

Going along that route, an alternative ending that I would've liked is if Bruce still carried on as Batman with Selina at his side. Maybe adopt one of those orphaned teens (named Dick Grayson or something) as well, and rebuild his family. Gotham has been saved. Bruce's rage and anger are gone. He isn't needed to fight crime full time or even that often anymore, but he still keeps the bat suit around just in case.

God. I would have hated that. Bruce got his peace. He found someone he can share a life with. The whole point of this batman isn't to be some obsessed vigilante until death... it was to find a sense of completeness, which he did.

As for money, something tells me he and Selina did ok for themselves with their various skill sets.

[JLTucker]

I'm with Gil: the big thing that pissed me off was the bad physics. How do you stop a nuclear bomb from exploding? These things rely on very precise geometry and timing -- all you have to do is blow the damned thing up. You'll have a radioactive mess on your hands, but you won't level half the city (actually, was it a 4 MT bomb or was it a neutron bomb? they said both at different times in the movie). And a fusion reactor turned into a bomb? Give me a break.

Who gives a shit? It's a MacGuffin designed to be the catalyst for commentary on a failing American society.

[Surlethe]

Everybody has different *eject* buttons in their suspension of disbelief. One of mine goes off whenever a movie mangles real physics in its dialogue - better for my viewing experience for the movie to just make something up, like Iron Man's arc reactor, than to call something a "fusion" reactor when it's obviously not a fusion reactor.

[Surlethe]

It might have slipped by me, but was Bruce actually crippled in the beginning, and if so, why? Was that supposed to be an injury sustained from his fall at the end of The Dark Knight? At first I thought that it was a total front meant to deceive people after Bruce decided to become a recluse. But then I saw him limping around with his cane in private, when he was alone or with Alfred. They even showed him resorting to some kind of exoskeleton on his leg. Then after getting his back messed up by Bane (an injury which he recovered rather quickly from), Bruce just trained himself back so that he physically seemed good as new.

I think the explanation is supposed to be that years of extreme daily physical abuse wore his body down. He was out fighting criminals every night with just his brass knuckles and a few gadgets. Alfred even makes a point of mentioning how much punishment he's taking in the opening of Dark Knight while he's sewing up the dog bites.

[JLTucker]

Everybody has different *eject* buttons in their suspension of disbelief. One of mine goes off whenever a movie mangles real physics in its dialogue - better for my viewing experience for the movie to just make something up, like Iron Man's arc reactor, than to call something a "fusion" reactor when it's obviously not a fusion reactor.

Well, I can see that if the film was trying to be science fiction and was using it as anything other than a plot device to start the entire political commentary. It seems like an unnecessary nitpick for the sake of nitpicking. The details on how it works is irrelevant to the over all point of the film: shit gets worse before it gets better, and if we come together, we can likely enact change.

And yes, I love this movie and recently changed my views on TDK after watching it yesterday. I know I was harsh on Nolan earlier in the thread, but he has redeems himself here.

[JLTucker]

It might have slipped by me, but was Bruce actually crippled in the beginning, and if so, why? Was that supposed to be an injury sustained from his fall at the end of The Dark Knight? At first I thought that it was a total front meant to deceive people after Bruce decided to become a recluse. But then I saw him limping around with his cane in private, when he was alone or with Alfred. They even showed him resorting to some kind of exoskeleton on his leg. Then after getting his back messed up by Bane (an injury which he recovered rather quickly from), Bruce just trained himself back so that he physically seemed good as new.

I think the explanation is supposed to be that years of extreme daily physical abuse wore his body down. He was out fighting criminals every night with just his brass knuckles and a few gadgets. Alfred even makes a point of mentioning how much punishment he's taking in the opening of Dark Knight while he's sewing up the dog bites.

Wasn't there a joke in the doctor's office about a sporting hobby as the excuse for the injury?

[CaptainChewbacca]

Wasn't there a joke in the doctor's office about a sporting hobby as the excuse for the injury?

'Heliskiing', I believe. I enjoyed the movie, and I really loved Cilian Murphy showing up in not one but TWO scenes. I imagine if Ledger hadn't died Joker would have been presiding over the court.

Unfortunately I couldn't take Bane seriously at all. I love the comics, and I loved him in the Animated series, but what we got here sounded like a cross between Doctor Evil and Sean Connery. Every time he talked I couldn't help but laugh.

It might have been a problem with the sound equalization in my theater, though, apparently a speaker blew about 10 seconds into the movie and in some parts the musical score actually drowned out the dialogue. We all got free ticket vouchers.

[Scrib]

Since the title says spoilers I won't bother with the tags either.

Almost the entire police force being trapped underground for a long period was one of the more interesting ideas to me. Was thinking how odd it would be for the society above to change so much until suddenly the police make their way back up with a few people on top laying the ground work for their return. Made me think of that Edgar Allen Poe story where the madhouse patients made themselves at home for a while so that a visitor almost thought nothing amiss until the security personnel escaped from confinement and the patients went banaynay.

I think that the police being released should not have been shown in the trailers. It would have been much more of a surprise if there was some actual tension and them getting out was not guaranteed, maybe then you'd wonder if Gordon and his men would have to do it alone. But Nolan also didn't make that big a deal out of getting them out so I guess it's fine?

the police of Gothom becomming the french resistance in a city where the bad guys have a nuke that they use to control a city but have every intention of setting it off anyway. Why instead of doing this for over three motns just bane and talia not just get of the city after a week or so and THEN detonate it by remote. It gets even worse as Talia (with trigger in hand) waffles on and on to Batman which gives Gordon the most improable time needed to get delay the bomb's signal! Though Talia and her disguise does explain how they knew so much about bruce wayne's secret and weapons

Uhm.. yes it is. Bane doesn't give two fucks about the rich or the poor as ultimately he's planning on blowing everyone the hell up. His plan was basically a mix of the League of Shadows plan from BB and the Joker's plan from TDK. He riles the people up and gives them the hope that by falling in with him and his 'message' (which is total bullshit) that they're going to not get blown up.. after all they're giving Bane what he wants, and bonus he's even helped them topple the city government that's been lying to them, the police who helped them do it, AND they get a chance to vent on the people formerly running things from on high. None of this is his real point though. His point is to give them that hope (not dying/some power) so that they'll throw themselves into it even more. Even that is secondary because the point of all this chaos, anarchy, and terror is to HURT Batman. So that Batman can watch the city rip at itself, watch people cheer as kangaroo courts send people out to die, and watch as Gotham shows that it really hasn't changed at all down at the core. All that to hurt him and drag out the agony for months before Bane goes on to murder every last one of them while he's helpless to do anything. The world is shocked and horrified at what Gotham does to itself over the course of that time before its destruction, thus fufilling the original plan of the League of Shadows in the first place.

This. A lot of people seem...confused by Bane's plan. It was revenge. Pure and simple. I mean, the League's mission is bullshit. Gotham has been cleaned up and they only found out that it was a lie after they already planned to destroy the city. This was about crushing Wayne completely. There's a reason that Bane didn't just taze or shoot Batman immediately (besides it looking cool). It's the reason that Miranda seduced Bruce. It's the reason they used Daggert to get Bruce to open up and trust Miranda then shove the knife in. They wanted to pretty much murder him in the most complete way possible. Also, it's not a good idea to trap a few million people with no hope for survival.

So while Talia does seem like a Bond villain when she prattles on and on, her position is pretty consistent. Not to mention that it's irrelevant what Gordon or Batman does, time is on her side.

Liked the movie overall in general, despite the last minute inclusion of Talia, which fucked with Bane's spotlight. But their relationship seemed more than just master-servant so it's not that bad. Bane at the end indicates that he has some autonomy and can clearly realise when Talia isn't being rational and will act on his own.

It is slightly hilarious to me how crazy these fucking people are though. They give Loki and his bullshit a run for his money. I'm convinced that the destruction of the League proper just displaced them and made them lose purpose,because killing themselves and a lot of the League is pretty fucking stupid considering that the League is supposed to be an eternal organisation maintaining balance through the centuries.

[Guardsman Bass]

I saw it today, and . . . I don't know.

I can't say that I really enjoyed it, to be honest. The pacing felt off to me, like it was two-hours's worth of movie stretched out into a nearly three hour film. It takes forever for the film to finally get to the whole "Gotham Revolution" period, although that segment of the film was excellent. There was a lot that I did like, but overall I didn't really care for the film.

I also didn't really care for the League of Shadows connection, although I'm not surprised that it was there. Bane and Talia finishing the LoS's work struck me as much less interesting than it might have been if Bane was a True Believer whose goal really was to turn Gotham into his own personal post-revolutionary kingdom, and send a message at the same time.

I think the relentless grimdark may have turned me off a bit, and I say that as someone who loves The Dark Knight. When they inevitably re-boot Batman in 2014 or 2015, I hope it's a bit more light-hearted.

[JLTucker]

I think the relentless grimdark may have turned me off a bit, and I say that as someone who loves The Dark Knight. When they inevitably re-boot Batman in 2014 or 2015, I hope it's a bit more light-hearted.

Grimdark that is worth sitting through for an optimistic message,

[Pendleton]

Yeah, we've already had years of camp Batman anyway. Only Burton's first film can really be seen as a divergence before Nolan's take. I like the camp original series, but a film franchise that has more B:TAS in its genes is more interesting.

If you want that with Nolanverse, just imagine Gordon's line about who sved the city with "The man who dresses as a bat" replacing "The Batman".

We all know where too much light heartedness goes, Mr. Schumacher.

[JLTucker]

We all know where too much light heartedness goes, Mr. Schumacher.

Enjoyable romp that basically scream "most comics are stupid"?

[JLTucker]

I saw it today, and . . . I don't know.

I can't say that I really enjoyed it, to be honest. The pacing felt off to me, like it was two-hours's worth of movie stretched out into a nearly three hour film. It takes forever for the film to finally get to the whole "Gotham Revolution" period, although that segment of the film was excellent. There was a lot that I did like, but overall I didn't really care for the film.

I actually found the pacing to be the best of the three. I didn't find the run time to be tedious like I did with TDK, where the third act falls to pieces because it crams so much in. Everything here transitions well outside of a few weird editing choices during the party where music begins in one scene and ends in another, then we cut back to the same music. Yes, the music is scene dependent and diegetic, but it still felt odd.

[JLTucker]

I still felt it was unnecessary to me though. Bruce was Batman because of years of training combined with an obsessve drive and a billionaire's fortune. Blake, a rookie cop, is supposed to just take over like that with a miniscule fraction of the resources? Small or nod I think the reference just feels off. If a movie goes out of its way to make a reference, it should get it right or not do it at all.

Why wouldn't he spend a long time training prior to going out fighting crime? Even when Bruce had his training he had problems adapting to the role as Batman. I see nothing out of the ordinary.

I thought they went a bit far in how much money Bruce lost, to the point that he couldn't even pay the electrical bills at home. If he had just a few million left in a secure account (still chump change by billionaire standards), it would've been enough to live on and fund a future crimefighting career.

I think you're looking at this too literally. I saw it as another instance of sacrificing something for the greater good.

[Scrib]

Robin can train all he wants, I'm not sure that he'll ever learn to capture the League training that made Bruce so deadly. He has a slight advantage over most people though.

Hopefully he watches a ton of Batman highlights

[JLTucker]

Robin can train all he wants, I'm not sure that he'll ever learn to capture the League training that made Bruce so deadly. He has a slight advantage over most people though.

Hopefully he watches a ton of Batman highlights

Why would he specifically need that training?

[The Cooler King]

Why would he specifically need that training?

There IS the ninja/magician training that the League gave him in 'deception and theatricality' that helped Bruce use fear so effectively. It wasn't just his combat training that made him such a terror, after all.

[CaiusWickersham]

I liked the movie. Yeah, the physics are clunky in retrospect, but I had my attention held for 2.5 hours and I was greatly entertained and Batman got a fitting end. It would be nice to see a Robin/Nightwing trilogy in the Nolan-verse, but since Chris has stated he won't do more Batman movies that's a wash.

Personally, I like my Batman with a hint of dark. I didn't like the Schumacher films at all. Heck, I'd love to see Batman, Inc. in a new World of Darkness setting.

[hongi]

Not so good a movie.

That opening section with Bane extracting the scientist from the plane...did we really need that? I think we could have used that 15 minutes on Talia. Great actress, great character, but a little underused I think.

[JLTucker]

Not so good a movie.

That opening section with Bane extracting the scientist from the plane...did we really need that? I think we could have used that 15 minutes on Talia. Great actress, great character, but a little underused I think.

It sets up the fake death of the scientist and foreshadows what is to come at the hands of Bane. It sets up how insane he is. It's all in his eyes. When he says he's going to crash the plane, he has a look of purpose mixed insanity.

Your analysis on why it's not good is quite admirable, by the way.

[Ace_of_Spades]

Not so good a movie.

That opening section with Bane extracting the scientist from the plane...did we really need that? I think we could have used that 15 minutes on Talia. Great actress, great character, but a little underused I think.

It showcased how far Bane (or rather Talia, since he was acting at her behest the whole time) was willing to go, both in getting himself captured by a CIA agent and then killing said CIA agent. It showed how fanatical his soldiers are. Not only do they resist psychological torture, but they were perfectly willing to leave a man behind to die to ensure their ruse was believable. It showed the resources available to them since they were able to track the doctor down and hijack a plane just to get to him.

Was the scene strictly necessary? No, but it sure helps to set the stage for the scale of the coming conflict.

Plus it was pretty awesome.

As for Talia, I think she had plenty of characterization, especially if you look back at her scenes as Miranda Tate after you know who she really is.

Personally I think it was a great movie and a great way to end the trilogy.

[hongi]

It sets up the fake death of the scientist and foreshadows what is to come at the hands of Bane.

Did we need the scientist in the first place?

If I have a complaint, it's that the plot was too complex. I don't mean in the sense that Inception was complex. I mean that there was too much stuff going on in the movie. Nolan needed to keep it simple. Reduce the characters to as few as possible and use them in the best way possible. Bane, Talia, Catwoman, Robin, Batman, Alfred, Gordon, various other characters...it's a wonder that the movie ended up working as it did, which is a credit to Nolan. But I feel he could easily have trimmed some parts and given it to others and that would have made it a stronger film. Did we really need the new Deputy Commissioner? I liked him to be sure, but I don't think he was necessary.

One of the weakest parts of the whole movie was the execution of Bane's plan. His ruse of enfranchising the disenfranchised was flat and unbelievable. There was a scene of the rich getting ransacked and the prisoners getting out, but as far as I could tell, it was the prisoners doing the ransacking. The movie didn't show the actual poor citizens of Gotham that Bane claimed to represent. If they actually existed, I'd have liked to see them.

Batman, for all his techno-wizardry and kung-fu skills, didn't deal with one of the main causes of crime. Yes he smashed the organised crime mobs, but organised crime mobs didn't kill his parents. A common criminal did and common criminals will always exist where inequality does. That was one of Ra's al-Ghul's points in the first movie, if you make someone hungry, they'll steal. Ra's was evil because he only saw the evil in people, to the extent that he tried to make them evil.

There was that one cop who said that his money was in his mattress so the stock exchange hold up wasn't too much of a big deal, but that goes nowhere. Now imagine if Bane had convinced that cop to join his side because the Gothamites were chafing under the rich elite. And then Bane uses the willingness of ordinary citizens to turn against each other, to steal and 'reappropriate' wealth as evidence that corruption and evil infects the heart of all of Gotham, not just the rich and wealthy fatcats. So all of it needs to be burned down to the ground.

Talia may have organised this whole thing out of revenge for her father's death, but I don't think it can be disputed that she also believed in her father's goal of cleansing the city. And if you're gonna cleanse the city, what do you cleanse it of? Wasn't the whole point of TDK that the choice of good and evil rests within the hearts of everyone? When Talia said something like the word 'innocent' doesn't really apply to Gotham, that needs to be justified. It was a missed opportunity I think.